Could any metro areas other than New York and LA support multiple teams?

[majormajor]

I think the success of a 2nd Toronto team would depend on how they approached it. Give them a name like Toronto Ten-Ply or Toronto Hosers or Toronto Duct Tape and really try to be the antithesis of the Original 6. Make the games fun and not corporate. Use some cultural reference from Letterkenny or something and Americans will buy jerseys. Make fun of the Leafs and Canadiens and other teams in juvenile ways on social media that will make a 14 year old want his dad to take him to a game. Have good deals on beer. Bring in a guy or two with personality like Subban. But what would probably happen is they would try to emulate the Leafs and other franchises and it would always be second fiddle like the Mets in New York.

It's practically a "can't fail" type of situation in Toronto.

The Mets by the way are a distant second fiddle to the Yankees, which might sound like a failure, but they still get 350-400 million in revenue per year, in the upper half of the MLB. I think a second Toronto team would be in that exact situation - distant second to the Leafs as far as popularity, but still easily one of the most profitable clubs.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

While I do think Chicago could support a second NFL and a second NBA team, a second NHL team would be really pushing it. I'd say the NHL Hawks and AHL Wolves are sufficient here for the demand.

As for other markets, really the only option would be Toronto. If I'm honest, I think that they could sustain a second city team, a suburban team, and a team in Hamilton if you really want to stretch the GTA definition. They'd all be minnows compared to the Leafs, but I think even just casuals going to games would make them in the middle of the pack profit-wise in the league.

I don't see any other market being applicable for a second NHL team.

 

[kgboomer]

It's practically a "can't fail" type of situation in Toronto.

I guess Global can give them a local TV contract for 60 games, can't see them paying much.

 

[HisIceness]

Clearly, Charlotte is in need for an NHL team to compete w/ the Canes

As others have stated, it's either Toronto or nothing. I'm not on board with the idea but if it were to happen then so be it.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Chicagoland and New England could probably support another.

 

[crobro]

The Fraser valley and or a team representing the okanagen

 

[Zenos]

I guess just in terms of population, money, and fan interest, I suppose Toronto could pull it off. But it would be a horrible upward battle - I mean just look at how Ottawa still gets invaded by Habs and Leafs fans nearly 30 years later.

I have to wonder if a new team would be better off in that coveted “greater horseshoe” area, but in a distinct city, be it Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo? Because without a local connection or home territory, how do you even begin to carve-away a fan base in the GTA?

 

[holy]

Toronto has an urban market that gives 0 shits about hockey right now. Only people here who care about the Leafs are usually nerds.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

I think a second Golden Horseshoe team would have to be in Hamilton, honestly. I don't think the Tri-Cities area would quite be the right move; it'd be a huge uphill struggle just to establish themselves with how entrenched that area is as Leafs territory, and there's no arena or ownership willing to put a team there.

A team in Hamilton could become the Ti-Cats to the Leafs' Argos, which is a lot more sustainable in the long term, and there's already renovations being done to FirstOntario that would be enticing for a team looking for a safe landing spot. Only thing that really complicates Hamilton is that Buffalo probably pitches a fit about it.

And I can't imagine the Leafs do anything about it; if anything, they'd want a Hamilton team because it gives them a Ti-Cats to brawl with in their own version of the Ballard Cup, much like how the Habs would want a Québec City team because of the historic rivalry the two had.

 

[Rob Brown]

I think they would be pretty comfortable in the middle of the pack of the league with a potential to be top 10, and likely a team that share's revenue, instead of taking out of the revenue sharing. It should be kept in mind, that the Greater Golden Horseshoe is larger than all the Western Canadian teams and Ottawa's metro population combined. Just the GTA is about the same size as Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary's metropolitan population combined. The only expansions I think makes more sense is Houston, and possibly Austin due to its continued growth, transplants, and tech sector.

Now, I would say this about a team centered in Toronto, that is accessible for all parts of the GTA by car and public transport, so either at SBA or a new Arena off the 401 in the Downsview park area or at worst a the end of the University/Spidina line, along the 400 and 407 in the start of the northern suburbs. A team that is building that is in the Hamilton region or even Mississauga is much more capped as it won't be easily accessible by the TTC or people who work downtown, and while Toronto has wealthy suburbs, a very significant amount of wealth resides inside the old city limits and North York (now amalgamated into Toronto after it became the "mega-city"), so a team with aspirations of top 10 NHL revenue's likely needs to be easily accessible to the core of the city. If Hamilton or Sauga got a team, I'd be pretty indifferent, as they would be a nightmare to get to during the work week.

If they put a team in Mississauga they'd be going more for the Peel/Halton/Niagara/Guelph/KW crowd rather than Toronto itself. There are tons of Leafs fans in those areas that wouldn't switch over, but over time they'd pull in families, children etc. You'd probably still have Leafs fans who would go watch games if it was affordable given that they either can't afford Leafs games or can't get downtown easily.

Toronto has an urban market that gives 0 shits about hockey right now. Only people here who care about the Leafs are usually nerds.

Well that isn't true.

 

[93LEAFS]

If they put a team in Mississauga they'd be going more for the Peel/Halton/Niagara/Guelph/KW crowd rather than Toronto itself. There are tons of Leafs fans in those areas that wouldn't switch over, but over time they'd pull in families, children etc. You'd probably still have Leafs fans who would go watch games if it was affordable given that they either can't afford Leafs games or can't get downtown easily.

Well that isn't true.

Most of the wealth is still located in the heart of the city (Rosedale, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park), along with corporate accounts, which is why a 2nd team at SBA makes the most sense. You want to be able to sell seats to the 5 Banks which head offices are all downtown, Law firms (7 sisters etc,) and consulting firms (KPMG, Deloitte), who are all located in the heart of the city. If you want to maximize the value of a 2nd team, it likely needs to be in the core of the city, and at worst at Downsview park which is still easily accessible by train to the core and York Region (Vaughn), plus is right off the 401.

 

[Rob Brown]

Most of the wealth is still located in the heart of the city (Rosedale, Forest Hill, Lawrence Park), along with corporate accounts, which is why a 2nd team at SBA makes the most sense. You want to be able to sell seats to the 5 Banks which head offices are all downtown, Law firms (7 sisters etc,) and consulting firms (KPMG, Deloitte), who are all located in the heart of the city. If you want to maximize the value of a 2nd team, it likely needs to be in the core of the city, and at worst at Downsview park which is still easily accessible by train to the core and York Region (Vaughn), plus is right off the 401.

I just don't see MLSE ever sharing their arena with a competing team, and you're more likely to build and grow a new fanbase outside of downtown as I doubt many of the people you are referring to would switch allegiances. Putting the team in the suburbs or another city like Hamilton or KW would give the team an easier path at pulling in new, long term fans - people that want to watch hockey and don't to have to travel all the way into the city. IMO anyway.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

MLSE has enough dates in Scotiabank with the Raps and Leafs along with all the other stuff, a second NHL team would end up being like...third or fourth fiddle for booking dates, at best. Nobody's gonna be looking to erect arenas in a Covid-battered economy for a while, so areas with suitable buildings already established are definitely the more likely to get teams.

Hamilton and FirstOntario, especially with the rennovations that just got approved, make a lot more sense financially since then an NHL team would be the primary tenant of the building and it's an existing, up-to-NHL-standards arena.

 

[HBK27]

The Kings had a couple or more crowds of 11,000 late in the season. The Sharks have had a wild drop to 14,000 once or twice in February and March.

Seems these metros can barely support their teams in bad times. The Islanders, as usual, have had plenty of 9,000 to 11,0000 crowds, both at Barclays and Nassau. The Rangers only sold out three or four games this year.... unbelievable, especially with stars. Okay, they would've maybe sold out another game or two if the regular season played to completion. But only 15,000 to 16,500 announced at MSG, plus any no shows, is astounding. I've never seen that there since following the league attendance as a boy in 1971. And the Flyers had trouble most of the season getting 85%-90% capacity? Couldn't even sell out playoffs against Penguins last year, I think. Close, but not sellouts

But the Blackhawks....somehow, keeping selling out. But not sure how many no shows each night, though. And yes, StubHub prices for their games can start very low (plus big fees). Maaaybe Chicago could support another team if it were positioned maybe within 45 miles of Milwaukee and decent prices?

But as far as other metros supporting two teams, baseball doesn't do well nowadays in Baltimore, Oakland or the White Sox when faced with bad or even decent teams. Anaheim and Los Angeles are an exception, as both draw very well. But baseball fans have 81 home games to support versus only 41 in hockey, so maybe that's an excuse.

(But still, most regular season hockey tix are more expensive in most cities than baseball tix, I think. So most baseball teams can sometimes still attract a family sitting in the upper seats )

I wouldn't put that much stock in attendance numbers. Teams are trying to maximize revenue per game, not attendance. If the team makes more money with higher ticket prices and say 85% capacity versus lower ticket prices and 100% capacity, it's pretty clear which direction they're gonna go.

You say that it "seems these metros can barely support their teams in bad times" yet even with low attendance numbers for years now, the Islanders are in the process of building a new arena and are spending up to the cap limit, so they seem to be doing just fine. The Devils have been awful for plenty of seasons now with low attendance numbers, but aren't going anywhere. The Rangers remain one of the most valuable franchises in the league. Attendance may be down for the Kings and Sharks, but they also remain two of the healthier franchises in the league. I'm not seeing any real evidence that these metro areas can "barely support their teams in bad times".

 

[93LEAFS]

I just don't see MLSE ever sharing their arena with a competing team, and you're more likely to build and grow a new fanbase outside of downtown as I doubt many of the people you are referring to would switch allegiances. Putting the team in the suburbs or another city like Hamilton or KW would give the team an easier path at pulling in new, long term fans - people that want to watch hockey and don't to have to travel all the way into the city. IMO anyway.

Except it dramatically reduces the amount of people its accessible to by putting it in the Western Suburbs, while still hurting the Leafs regionally. People from the city where most of the population is located, is not going to travel to Hamilton or KW, it makes way more sense to be in the center of the city or off the 401 at Downsview park where its accessible by highway and the TTC.

I'd also add, I pointed to corporations and corporate sales. Those companies will buy regardless of affiliation and are key to most successful markets.

The issue is, it's not like Leafs tickets are accessible, so by the sheer ability to get tickets and sell seasons tickets they will grow the fanbases in the city. A team in Toronto is by far the most profitable and valuable option for the NHL, and if you are going to piss-off the Leafs by building in their region and taking part of their TV area, it makes most sense to go with the most profitable option. A team in Hamilton or KW isn't really accessible to all the Toronto suburbs like York Region or Durham region, severely limiting the reach. Plus, how many of the type of customers you want in regions like Oakville or Burlington are the types who take the Go Train daily (pre-pandemic) to work in the downtown bank towers in either banking, consulting or law-firms?

 

[Qward]

The Kings had a couple or more crowds of 11,000 late in the season. The Sharks have had a wild drop to 14,000 once or twice in February and March.

I am gonna assume when referring to LA metro you mean the Kings and Ducks since San Jose is over 5 hours away if you take the 101 to the 152 to the I-5 Stuuuuuart!

 

[Rob Brown]

Except it dramatically reduces the amount of people its accessible to by putting it in the Western Suburbs, while still hurting the Leafs regionally. People from the city where most of the population is located, is not going to travel to Hamilton or KW, it makes way more sense to be in the center of the city or off the 401 at Downsview park where its accessible by highway and the TTC.

I'd also add, I pointed to corporations and corporate sales. Those companies will buy regardless of affiliation and are key to most successful markets.

The issue is, it's not like Leafs tickets are accessible, so by the sheer ability to get tickets and sell seasons tickets they will grow the fanbases in the city. A team in Toronto is by far the most profitable and valuable option for the NHL, and if you are going to piss-off the Leafs by building in their region and taking part of their TV area, it makes most sense to go with the most profitable option. A team in Hamilton or KW isn't really accessible to all the Toronto suburbs like York Region or Durham region, severely limiting the reach. Plus, how many of the type of customers you want in regions like Oakville or Burlington are the types who take the Go Train daily (pre-pandemic) to work in the downtown bank towers in either banking, consulting or law-firms?

I think you are underestimating how big Mississauga and Hamilton are, in addition to Oakville, Burlington, Guelph, KW etc.

I agree that a team in Hamilton, for example, is less accessible to Toronto and its north/east suburbs, but there are plenty of people west of Toronto. Like I said, I highly doubt the Leafs will ever approve a team playing in the same building, let alone the same city, so moving west might be the only option for any prospective team in the GTA. Maybe north in Markham or something but that's even less opportunistic, IMO.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Except it dramatically reduces the amount of people its accessible to by putting it in the Western Suburbs, while still hurting the Leafs regionally. People from the city where most of the population is located, is not going to travel to Hamilton or KW, it makes way more sense to be in the center of the city or off the 401 at Downsview park where its accessible by highway and the TTC.

I'd also add, I pointed to corporations and corporate sales. Those companies will buy regardless of affiliation and are key to most successful markets.

The issue is, it's not like Leafs tickets are accessible, so by the sheer ability to get tickets and sell seasons tickets they will grow the fanbases in the city. A team in Toronto is by far the most profitable and valuable option for the NHL, and if you are going to piss-off the Leafs by building in their region and taking part of their TV area, it makes most sense to go with the most profitable option. A team in Hamilton or KW isn't really accessible to all the Toronto suburbs like York Region or Durham region, severely limiting the reach. Plus, how many of the type of customers you want in regions like Oakville or Burlington are the types who take the Go Train daily (pre-pandemic) to work in the downtown bank towers in either banking, consulting or law-firms?

This is my thoughts as well, Lots will go to games in North central Toronto, easier to get to, for a lot of folks, and they get to see NHL hockey at cheaper price.
Can’t see Hamilton, as sandwiched between leafs and sabres. Sabres wouldn’t like it.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

Can’t see Hamilton, as sandwiched between leafs and sabres. Sabres wouldn’t like it.

Sabres are also only one vote out of 32, and there's not much reason for me to expect the Leafs cut out Hamilton when it can only benefit them in the end. Neither team really have territorial control over Hamilton, either, so they can't pull that out; the Sabres don't even broadcast in the area.

Toronto would see far more threat in a team up in Mississauga, Vaughan or Markham, which is directly inside their market bubble, as opposed to one in Hamilton, which is outside of that bubble and where they and Ottawa could stand to gain a second provincial rival.

The league as a whole benefits more from a third Ontario team, and Buffalo's voice alone wouldn't be sufficient to block Hamilton from coming in. They'd maybe have to pay a fee to them, but Buffalo wouldn't be in a position to block it completely.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think you are underestimating how big Mississauga and Hamilton are, in addition to Oakville, Burlington, Guelph, KW etc.

I agree that a team in Hamilton, for example, is less accessible to Toronto and its north/east suburbs, but there are plenty of people west of Toronto. Like I said, I highly doubt the Leafs will ever approve a team playing in the same building, let alone the same city, so moving west might be the only option for any prospective team in the GTA. Maybe north in Markham or something but that's even less opportunistic, IMO.

They won't let a team in the GTA by the same token. If the NHL pushes the Leafs hand, or Bell/Rogers figure out an agreement to split and one becomes a new owner of a second team, it will be Toronto 2. I get how populated Sauga and Hamilton are, but it has nowhere near the pull of Toronto 2 financially. You want access to the major corporate accounts in Downtown Toronto, and a team in Sauga or Hamilton doesn't get that.

 

[Zenos]

Neither team really have territorial control over Hamilton, either, so they can't pull that out; the Sabres don't even broadcast in the area.

From the NHL constitution:

“No other member of the League shall be permitted to play games (except regularly scheduled League games with the home club) in the home territory of a member without the latter member’s consent. No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member.”

and later:

“Home territory with respect to any member, means each member club shall have exclusive territorial rights in the city in which it is located and within 50 miles of that city’s corporate limits.”

So yeah, according to the league's own regulations, the Leafs do have a claim to territorial control over the city of Hamilton.

Of course, the Canadian Competition Bureau might see things differently, as they did when Basillie wanted to move the Predators to Hamilton 15 years ago.

 

[93LEAFS]

Sabres are also only one vote out of 32, and there's not much reason for me to expect the Leafs cut out Hamilton when it can only benefit them in the end. Neither team really have territorial control over Hamilton, either, so they can't pull that out; the Sabres don't even broadcast in the area.

Toronto would see far more threat in a team up in Mississauga, Vaughan or Markham, which is directly inside their market bubble, as opposed to one in Hamilton, which is outside of that bubble and where they and Ottawa could stand to gain a second provincial rival.

The league as a whole benefits more from a third Ontario team, and Buffalo's voice alone wouldn't be sufficient to block Hamilton from coming in. They'd maybe have to pay a fee to them, but Buffalo wouldn't be in a position to block it completely.

How does Hamitlon benefit the Leafs, it potentially cuts in to their regional TV area. Why do Leafs care about a 2nd rival? It's not like selling insanely marked up tickets is even difficult when they are playing the Wild or Coyotes. Right now, all of Southern Ontario is exclusively Leafs TV territory, why would they give any of that up?

 

[57special]

Hamilton would be a natural choice. Even back in the 80's it only took them 48 hours to get 10,000 season's tickets sold, and it and the surrounding area is far bigger and wealthier now than it was then. Oakville has more than doubled in population. Burlington, Ancaster, Dundas, Grimsby, Kitchener Waterloo, Brampton, Guelph, Gretzkyville, St Catherines, the Falls, even places like Milton that were tiny back then have mushroomed. Then there are the monied types up in the Caledon Hills.

And Hamilton, of course, which is about 75% larger in population.

I think there enough fans to support three teams, though it might thin out the TV money.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

Why do Leafs care about a 2nd rival? It's not like selling insanely marked up tickets is even difficult when they are playing the Wild or Coyotes.

The more teams and markets the league has, the more benefit everybody gets. A large open market like Hamilton would benefit the Leafs more than hurt them because more teams means more revenue which likely means a higher cap, which benefits Toronto extensively.

Right now, all of Southern Ontario is exclusively Leafs TV territory, why would they give any of that up?

Why would they be willing to give up ground in their own home market for Toronto 2, but not willing to let a team in Hamilton come in? Toronto2 cannibalizes the Leafs' main market, Hamilton does not.

The Leafs get nationally broadcast all the goddamn time, they're not exactly a team that relies on local TV to get by. They'd have no real reason to be upset at giving up an overall small portion of their territory...which is basically most of Ontario.

 

[Zenos]

How does Hamitlon benefit the Leafs, it potentially cuts in to their regional TV area.

I also had to wonder this.

Years ago, the Leafs blocked a London, Ont., cable television station from broadcasting a pre-season game that didn’t involve the Leafs because it infringed on their broadcasting territory.

And then there's their involvement in the AHL. Long story short, back around 2000 different investors tried to move various minor league (IHL and AHL) teams into the old Coliseum (now Coca-Cola). First, the Leafs tried to pressure the Hamilton Bulldogs into vetoing any move into Toronto (because they're within the 50mile territorial radius) before trying to buy that team outright itself. In the end, the Leafs ended up moving their own affiliate from NFLD into the area, just to keep things under their own control.

I mean, even part of the deal for the old Maple Leaf Gardens included a provision that the building couldn't be redeveloped into a large arena again. The Leafs wanted no part of a downtown venue competing with their own building or concerts and other events.

And we're supposed to believe that this same organization would be cool with another NHL club in its backyard? No way.