Could any metro areas other than New York and LA support multiple teams?

[93LEAFS]

The more teams and markets the league has, the more benefit everybody gets. A large open market like Hamilton would benefit the Leafs more than hurt them.

Why would they be willing to give up ground in their own home market for Toronto 2, but not willing to let a team in Hamilton come in? Toronto2 cannibalizes the Leafs' market, Hamilton does not.

The Leafs get nationally broadcast all the goddamn time, they're not exactly a team that relies on local TV to get by. They'd have no real reason to be upset at giving up an overall small portion of their territory...which is basically most of Ontario.

By this logic, Leafs benefit most by a highly profitable 2nd Toronto team.

You obviously don't understand the NHL economics. The entire reason Bell and Rogers bought the Leafs was so they didn't go crazy bidding against each other. So, what do you think Hamilton gets for exclusive TV? Just Hamilton? You really think Leafs are going to give up Halton region as their local region? Plus, the two companies who own the Leafs, are the exact people you need to be a viable franchise to get a TV deal from. Plus, each Canadian team has their national TV deal money reduced.

 

[Zenos]

The Leafs get nationally broadcast all the goddamn time, they're not exactly a team that relies on local TV to get by

I don't know about "relying", but the Leaf's deal with Rogers / TSN is worth over $40 million and is the league's most lucrative regional TV deal.

 

[Fatass]

I don't know about "relying", but the Leaf's deal with Rogers / TSN is worth over $40 million and is the league's most lucrative regional TV deal.

I know the GTA could support two teams, but how much extra profit will the league make adding that second team? Mostly the dollars the second team makes will come out of the Leaf’s, so is there really a point?

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

I know the GTA could support two teams, but how much extra profit will the league make adding that second team? Mostly the dollars the second team makes will come out of the Leaf’s, so is there really a point?

The Leafs won't lose anything if there's another team in Southern Ontario. They have a season ticket holder waiting list that goes on for years. People want to spend money on the NHL and can't. The NHL is losing out by not having 2 teams in Southern Ontario.

 

[93LEAFS]

I know the GTA could support two teams, but how much extra profit will the league make adding that second team? Mostly the dollars the second team makes will come out of the Leaf’s, so is there really a point?

Depends on if they use Scotia. The big thing is, gate revenue is still massive to an NHL team, and I doubt this impacts Leafs tickets, which are impossible to get outside of massive prices on the secondary market. With the amount of financial services companies, consulting/accounting firms, law firms, media corporations, etc located in Toronto there is a massive amount of readily accessible corporate support. Leafs and now Raptors tickets are sold at massive prices on the secondary market. No one is giving up seasons Leafs tickets, it's a prestige item to own in the city like a membership to Rosedale or St. Georges (which no one gives up until death, like a seat on the Supreme Court). It could hit the teams regional and national tv payouts, which is a calculation Bell and Rogers would have to make. Which is why the only real path to Toronto or a second Southern Ontario team is dependent on Rogers and Bell being the instigators, likely in a deal where one buys the other out for Leafs and Marlies and sets aside a territorial fee, then they split ownership on everything else (including Scotia Bank Arena). So media company one ends up with Leafs, their local TV rights, 35% of Raptors, 35% of SBA, 35% of TFC, and the media company 2 gets new team, 35% of Raptors, 35% of SBA, 35% of TFC. The real issue around that is how to navigate Tannenbaum, as he loves the status of being the Raptors/Leafs "owner" and it would likely require a full buy-out of him (something he is unlikely to agree to, given the status owning these teams, even if it is only 30% gives him).

 

[Hivemind]

The Capitals could probably survive a new Baltimore team without a crippling loss of revenue or fans, but I'm not sure there would be enough of a fan base to support a Baltimore team without Washington fans also contributing (like the Orioles in the pre-Nationals era). The NFL is the only league large enough to really support teams in both cities simultaneously. The Nats have more or less replaced the O's in terms of relevance outside of Baltimore die hards, and the O's attendance has tanked along with their slumping team over the past 2 decades.

I'd be curious if a sports-crazed city like Philadelphia could support two teams in a league, but they've never had divided loyalties before to test that scenario. It kinda harms the "us vs the world" mentality of Philadelphia fans if not all of Philly is unified, but perhaps the in-city rivalry would be intense enough to garnish interest.

Outside of that, it's basically GTA and Chicago as the other possibilities.

 

[PurpleMouse]

Could Minneapolis and St. Paul work if both teams really leaned in the rivalry?

 

[93LEAFS]

Could Minneapolis and St. Paul work if both teams really leaned in the rivalry?

No, Minneapolis is already one of the smallest markets with a team in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL, plus they have a sizable D1 program in their metro region in the Golden Gophers. That's way too much competition, and may bleed both teams dry.

 

[Fatass]

No, Minneapolis is already one of the smallest markets with a team in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL, plus they have a sizable D1 program in their metro region in the Golden Gophers. That's way too much competition, and may bleed both teams dry.

I’m seeing only the GTA as being profitable for a second team. And I still believe some of that second team’s profits will come at the expense of the Leaf’s bottom line.
If the Leafs take in 250 million/year, would adding a second team bring the total for the two teams to 350? (I don’t know the Leaf’s actual number; I’m just guessing)

 

[93LEAFS]

I’m seeing only the GTA as being profitable for a second team. And I still believe some of that second team’s profits will come at the expense of the Leaf’s bottom line.
If the Leafs take in 250 million/year, would adding a second team bring the total for the two teams to 350? (I don’t know the Leaf’s actual number; I’m just guessing)

I don't really see how it impacts the Leafs dramatically outside the small impact on the national TV deal. To be honest, it could hurt the rest of the Canadian teams more if the Canadian TV money is now split 8 ways instead of 7 (the 25-30m a year each Canadian team gets out of that, means a lot more to Winnpeg and Ottawa than it does Toronto, and a reduction in that is felt). Most teams primary source of income is gate revenue and its hard to see the Leafs being dramatically impacted on that, owning Leafs seasons is a prestige item. If anyone is going to get impacted it's the people who keep their Leafs seats to sell them on the secondary market at an absurd mark-up. Leafs tickets are almost impossible to obtain at face-value, even when the team is absolutely horrific. I would think MLSE main worry is a competiting arena in the GTA draining concert dates/revenue from them.

 

[Digital Kid]

The Toronto Toros were actually one of the top teams attendance-wise in the WHA. Their problem was the exorbitant rent that Harold Ballard was charging them to use MLG. Makes me think the Toros could be reinvented.

 

[saskriders]

My thinking is Hamilton is the ideal GTA/Golden Horseshoe 2nd team, and that the Bay Area is the most likely of the other markets to support two because of the large population (and I imagine there are more non hockey fans that can be converted than in Chicago or Montreal).

 

[patnyrnyg]

Would the Devils be close enough to NYC to be included in that market with the Islanders and Rangers?

Yes. Central and North Jersey is a split between Rangers and Devils fans. You can get from MSG to Prudential Center via short train ride.

 

[MBH]

The “Golden Horseshoe” is the only area that would support two NHL teams. But why do it? Likely only split off some of the Leaf’s revenue, so not really adding to the total enough to justify the second team.

Because it's not really splitting revenue in half.
How many people will have two jerseys?
More TV revenue.
Another building to fill.
Toronto might suffer a bit, but not that much.
New team would almost instantly become a health franchise.

 

[Mtown17057]

How about an NHL team in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

How about an NHL team in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

Hershey isn't anywhere near big enough to support an NHL franchise. AHL is fine for that unincorporated community.

 

[Digital Kid]

The TV issue can easily be mitigated by having games on alternating nights between the two teams, and you send one West when the other is East on road trips to perhaps have GTA double-headers. This isn't rocket science.

 

[WildGopher]

No, Minneapolis is already one of the smallest markets with a team in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL, plus they have a sizable D1 program in their metro region in the Golden Gophers. That's way too much competition, and may bleed both teams dry.

When we had both the Fighting Saints and North Stars (I used to work at both teams' games), the splitting of fan bases almost caused both teams to go under (the Saints actually did), so no, Mpls.-St. Paul couldn't support two NHL teams. None of the arguments in this thread convince me that any additional market in North America could support two teams, with the exception of Southern Ontario (either GTA or Hamilton). Another team there would be a slam dunk, and should happen. Anywhere else? I don't see any other place working if it got a second team. As an aside, the Mpls.-St. Paul market is often misunderstood. Whether by Metropolitan Statistical Market size or any other measure, there is no "Minneapolis" market and that city doesn't have an NHL team. Minneapolis and its suburbs alone would be a very small market, unable to support even one NHL team. But with two semi-large adjacent cities and their suburbs together, we total plenty of people to support all 5 major sports and major Big 10 university sports, but mis-naming the MSM "Minneapolis" makes it seem artificially small. Anyway, the point is, we've had the experience of two major league hockey teams before. It was a lot of fun to watch two teams, but no thanks to it happening again. I'd rather see deserving fans in markets like Quebec City and Southern Ontario get new teams first.

 

[93LEAFS]

When we had both the Fighting Saints and North Stars (I used to work at both teams' games), the splitting of fan bases almost caused both teams to go under (the Saints actually did), so no, Mpls.-St. Paul couldn't support two NHL teams. None of the arguments in this thread convince me that any additional market in North America could support two teams, with the exception of Southern Ontario (either GTA or Hamilton). Another team there would be a slam dunk, and should happen. Anywhere else? I don't see any other place working if it got a second team. As an aside, the Mpls.-St. Paul market is often misunderstood. Whether by Metropolitan Statistical Market size or any other measure, there is no "Minneapolis" market and that city doesn't have an NHL team. Minneapolis and its suburbs alone would be a very small market, unable to support even one NHL team. But with two semi-large adjacent cities and their suburbs together, we total plenty of people to support all 5 major sports and major Big 10 university sports, but mis-naming the MSM "Minneapolis" makes it seem artificially small. Anyway, the point is, we've had the experience of two major league hockey teams before. It was a lot of fun to watch two teams, but no thanks to it happening again. I'd rather see deserving fans in markets like Quebec City and Southern Ontario get new teams first.

Yeah, I should have said the Twin Cities CSA. Forgot they were in St. Paul’s. I was talking about the entire CSA which covers a large distance. It’s just the Twin Cities and Denver are the two smallest markets to have a NFL, MLB, NHL and NBA team, not that they were too small to support or don’t have the support to have all of those plus a larger D1 program. Due to being the last large city going West in the Mid-West they also have a sizable large TV area geographically (Denver has a similarly large TV footprint due to location too).

 

[Ernie]

The “Golden Horseshoe” is the only area that would support two NHL teams. But why do it? Likely only split off some of the Leaf’s revenue, so not really adding to the total enough to justify the second team.

More TV, more opportunities to sell tickets.

A 2nd team is a no-brainer. I expect it will happen once Bell and Rogers face a declining TV audience and start looking for ways to maximize corporate revenues. One keeps the Leafs, the other gets a 2nd franchise.

 

[HisIceness]

How about an NHL team in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

Instead of signing paper contracts the players sign Hershey wrappers

 

[crobro]

The Vancouver blazers were averaging about 8500 a game to the Canucks 11.000

 

[WildGopher]

The Vancouver blazers were averaging about 8500 a game to the Canucks 11.000

That's actually a pretty decent attendance for WHA teams. Why didn't they make it in Vancouver - were both teams losing money like in Minnesota, or did Calgary offer ownership more? I've been in the rink the Cowboys used in Calgary and it's pretty small. Did the Blazers play at the Pacific Coliseum?

 

[93LEAFS]

That's actually a pretty decent attendance for WHA teams. Why didn't they make it in Vancouver - were both teams losing money like in Minnesota, or did Calgary offer ownership more? I've been in the rink the Cowboys used in Calgary and it's pretty small. Did the Blazers play at the Pacific Coliseum?

Pretty sure every WHA team lost money. The entire business strategy was to replicate the ABA (who tried to replicate the AFL), and eventually get a forced merger (where they would get that payoff longterm). Some teams just weren't bleeding money like they cut an artery.

 

[NJDevils7]

Would the Devils be close enough to NYC to be included in that market with the Islanders and Rangers?

As a Devils fan born and raised in New York, absolutely. MSG is closer to Prudential Center than Nassau Coliseum. MSG to Prudential Center is like a 20-25 min train ride.

Also keep in mind the Devils literally played at the same complex (Meadowlands) as the NY Giants/Jets for a long time.