Coronavirus Thread - mod note post 23 & 541

[Bench]

I think at this point the best thing to do is shake hands, agree to disagree, and part ways on this topic, because I don't see us even having enough common ground to further a discussion.

Yeah, this is pointless. Sort of.

We have a guy that has called masks "stupid" despite overwhelming support in the medical community.

We have a guy that cited the same research manuscript twice, thinking it was new both times, and then used that research to claim a vaccine isn't necessary and he will not be taking one...
When the entire purpose of those brilliant researchers' work, in their words, is to help develop a vaccine.

It's impossible to take one's opinion seriously when they can't even demonstrate basic understanding for their own sources. And even more impossible to have a discussion when they continue to feel like they know better than the experts they cited.

But the point of the rebuttal isn't for him. He's not here to learn something new or to admit his blind spots. Most of us familiar with his history know that's not on the table.

I know a lot of people pass by this thread and don't comment. I hope those people see how ignorant, baseless, and potentially dangerous the viewpoints are that he holds.

 

[Red Stanley]

Goals change over time, Fauci said this back when Donald Trump disbanded the pandemic response team, didn't take the threat seriously, didn't maintain a stockpile of PPE and then told states that they are on their own. The initial goal back in March and April was to protect the healthcare system from getting completely over run. This was also a novel virus we had very little data on other than what we gathered from China. Of course Trump had already removed our health officials from China where we could have had first hand reports.

I get it, you want to play gotcha despite the fact Fauci's opinion has followed the science. The one fact you seem unwilling to acknowledge is Trump has been totally incompetent and has made the situation orders of magnitude worse.

No, I said I want to know who recommended and who OK'd the decision to straight up lie to the public about masks. That wasn't me insinuating it was exclusively on Fauci. That's you projecting and taking a preemptive defensive stance on the issue. If anything I insinuated that Trump must've had a hand in that decision for him to back Fauci the way he is. I'm sure if that turns out to be the case, you'll suddenly become less understanding and forgiving.

 

[MBH]

I think at this point the best thing to do is shake hands, agree to disagree, and part ways on this topic, because I don't see us even having enough common ground to further a discussion.

You're probably right.
Memes vs facts.

Something has happened in Michigan and Sweden (and New York and other places that were smashed in March and April and May.
It can't just be the weather - because it's summer in Houston and Florida and California.
For whatever reason, this virus is not as lethal in these regions that already got hit - despite the fact that these regions have opened up (or never really closed in Sweden's case).

So if your prescription is a lockdown that drives the economy further into the tank - you better have better have data to explain why its absolutely necessary.

 

[Bench]

Something has happened in Michigan and Sweden (and New York and other places that were smashed in March and April and May.
It can't just be the weather - because it's summer in Houston and Florida and California.
For whatever reason, this virus is not as lethal in these regions that already got hit - despite the fact that these regions have opened up (or never really closed in Sweden's case).

Over 30% of Swedes self-isolated. They exercised personal responsibility. They asked people to do these recommendations without laws. It wasn't simply business as usual, social distancing was still on the menu.

Sweden Stayed Open And More People Died Of Covid-19, But The Real Reason May Be Something Darker

The implication here is that Sweden chose to emphasize personal responsibility, but when the choice led to increased infections among the elderly, medical professionals seem to have taken on the responsibility of choosing who likely lives and dies.

Given that the analysis finds not all the nation’s ICU beds were occupied, it’s not even clear that this was necessary.

There were also some bright spots in the analysis, however.

“Our study shows that individually driven infection-control measures can have a substantial effect on national outcomes, and we see Sweden as a good example of this case,” said co-auth0r Peter Kasson from the University of Virginia School of Medicine and Uppsala University. “Higher levels of individual action would further suppress the infection, while a complete lack of individual action would likely have led to runaway infection, which, fortunately, hasn’t happened.”

The analysis finds that nearly a third of Swedish residents voluntarily self-isolated.

The result of the unique approach was less catastrophic than many predicted, despite the increased death rate. The country had three times as many deaths per capita compared to Denmark, Finland and Norway as of May 15, but it fared better than the United Kingdom and Spain while also lessening the economic impact of the pandemic.

But make no mistake, many more old people died in Sweden than neighboring countries. Oh well, I suppose.

And as for some kind of herald of herd immunity you keep expounding.

Sweden on COVID-19: 'the strategy is right' even as its mortality rate exceeds the U.S.

The comments follow signs that, despite much higher rates of exposure to the coronavirus in Sweden than in many other places, immunity remains elusive. Meanwhile, Sweden’s mortality rate per 100,000 is higher than that in the U.S.
Immunity Puzzle

Far greater numbers of Swedes have tested positive for Covid-19 than elsewhere in the Nordic region. But Sweden remains a long way off achieving so-called herd immunity, according to the latest data.

“We know that large parts of the population are unprotected, as they haven’t been infected,” Karin Tegmark Wisell, head of the Public Health Agency’s microbiology department, said on Tuesday. That means there remains a “large susceptibility in the population,” she said.

Data published by the agency in June indicated that about 10% of people in Stockholm—Sweden’s worst affected area—had developed antibodies to Covid-19. In the past four weeks, 17.6% of the more than 140,000 who signed up for free antibody tests in the capital region returned a positive result.

But there are plenty of caveats to figuring out how immunity works when it comes to Covid-19. Data from other coronaviruses suggest that an infected person would have some degree of immunity after recovering, though it’s hard to be sure, according to Maria Van Kerkhove, the World Health Organization’s technical lead officer on Covid-19.

“We do expect people infected would mount some level of immune response,” Kerkhove said at a briefing on July 13. “But we don’t know how strong the protection is or how long it may last.”

In a recent study, researchers at King’s College found that levels of immunity dropped drastically only three months after infection.
Unfortunate Outcome

“Of course, it is unfortunate,” Tegmark Wisell said of the study’s results. “It indicates that the protection from antibodies doesn’t last very long, but there are other parts of the immune system that give protection, for example T-cell response and cellular immunity.”

That last sentence should grab your attention! You're very well versed in T-cell response now.

Alas, infections remain steadily higher in Sweden, showing that social distancing alone seems to only go so far.

Sweden had the highest rate of new cases of all European Union states, barring Luxembourg, in the past couple of weeks. That partly reflects that the country finally, after many false starts, has been able to ramp up testing. However, it also indicates that the the virus remains more widespread than in most countries that have implemented more stringent measures.

The group of 23 critics, many of whom have advocated for a stricter lockdown, say Sweden should now consider a range of measures to save lives. These include quarantines for asymptomatic people who have been in contact with an infected person, and recommendations that face masks be used in public.

And don't look now, but even the architect of Sweden's COVID-19 is slowly walking back the stance on face masks.

Tegnell has argued that the evidence on masks is thin, and says that using them might even create a false sense of security, leading people to neglect essential measures such as hand-washing and social distancing. But a review of 172 studies funded by the WHO concluded that mask-wearing protects against Covid-19 transmission.

Tegmark Wisell said distancing remains the most effective way to prevent infection. But she also said her agency plans to review how to tackle situations in which distancing isn’t an option, “and whether face masks can be of any help.”

Just so anyone reading those quick hits above doesn't think Sweden is some kind of infection free, mask free utopia. They are still facing significant challenges and higher morality rates to its elderly population.

 

[newfy]

Yeah, this is pointless. Sort of.

We have a guy that has called masks "stupid" despite overwhelming support in the medical community.

We have a guy that cited the same research manuscript twice, thinking it was new both times, and then used that research to claim a vaccine isn't necessary and he will not be taking one...
When the entire purpose of those brilliant researchers' work, in their words, is to help develop a vaccine.

It's impossible to take one's opinion seriously when they can't even demonstrate basic understanding for their own sources. And even more impossible to have a discussion when they continue to feel like they know better than the experts they cited.

But the point of the rebuttal isn't for him. He's not here to learn something new or to admit his blind spots. Most of us familiar with his history know that's not on the table.

I know a lot of people pass by this thread and don't comment. I hope those people see how ignorant, baseless, and potentially dangerous the viewpoints are that he holds.

Honestly, I've been passing by and trying not to say anything because of how stupid and uneducated some are in this thread. I'm glad you have the patience to reply to a lot of nonsense with facts. I'm also glad I'm not the only one in here that knows how to read and analyse a peer reviewed article

 

[jkutswings]

Just so anyone reading those quick hits above doesn't think Sweden is some kind of infection free, mask free utopia. They are still facing significant challenges and higher morality rates to its elderly population.

Oh no, it's been a very smooth experience, with massive gains relative to neighboring countries (sarcasm):

Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

And I think you meant higher mortality rates to its elderly population. Although senior citizens making too many good decisions DOES fit as throwing a monkey wrench in the crisis management strategy used by their government.

 

[jkutswings]

USA Today posted a series of fact checks on face masks:

Fact check: What's true and what's false about face masks?

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Yeah, this is pointless. Sort of.

We have a guy that has called masks "stupid" despite overwhelming support in the medical community.

We have a guy that cited the same research manuscript twice, thinking it was new both times, and then used that research to claim a vaccine isn't necessary and he will not be taking one...
When the entire purpose of those brilliant researchers' work, in their words, is to help develop a vaccine.

It's impossible to take one's opinion seriously when they can't even demonstrate basic understanding for their own sources. And even more impossible to have a discussion when they continue to feel like they know better than the experts they cited.

But the point of the rebuttal isn't for him. He's not here to learn something new or to admit his blind spots. Most of us familiar with his history know that's not on the table.

I know a lot of people pass by this thread and don't comment. I hope those people see how ignorant, baseless, and potentially dangerous the viewpoints are that he holds.

I appreciate your effort and the info on all this Bench. Hopefully maybe you get thru to some of the “anti-mask” return to normal now types.

 

[jkutswings]

The efficacy of masks, unmasked:

Face Masks Really Do Matter. The Scientific Evidence Is Growing.

Definitely not a cure-all. But like many of us have been saying all along, when used in combination with other measures, they do make a difference.

 

[Bench]

And I think you meant higher mortality rates to its elderly population.

You didn't play Moral Kombat as a kid???

Finish him! Ethicality!

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You didn't play Moral Kombat as a kid???

Finish him! Ethicality!

Moral Kombat sounds like the game next to Lee Carvallo's Putting Challenge. Speaking of which... YOU HAVE SELECTED POWER DRIVE

Lee Carvallo's Putting Challenge by Aaron Demeter

 

[RabidBadger]

So, uh, has anyone come across any good new beers they'd like to share with the rest of the class? Most people have been tipping a few extra during the pandemic, so maybe some of you have stumbled across something new.

I've been pretty pleased with Dogfish Head Seaquench sour during these dog days of summer. Ditto Bell's Fruit Fight. Neither are ones I'd normally quaff when it isn't heat stroke weather. Aside from that, Old Nation, brewers of the excellent M43, are making a series of German style lagers and absolutely killing it. The helles lager is my fave (probably only available in Michigan, though).

 

[jkutswings]

So, uh, has anyone come across any good new beers they'd like to share with the rest of the class? Most people have been tipping a few extra during the pandemic, so maybe some of you have stumbled across something new.

I've been pretty pleased with Dogfish Head Seaquench sour during these dog days of summer. Ditto Bell's Fruit Fight. Neither are ones I'd normally quaff when it isn't heat stroke weather. Aside from that, Old Nation, brewers of the excellent M43, are making a series of German style lagers and absolutely killing it. The helles lager is my fave (probably only available in Michigan, though).

We have different tastes in beverages, but I welcome the conversation topic. I'm normally a Blue Moon / Leinenkugel kinda guy, but it's fun to try new beers and new beverages in general.

I'm about 20 minutes from Blake's Orchard in Armada. They're normally known for their hard ciders, but we recently tried a special they ran during the stay-at-home order, which included a growler of one of their specially beers. I wanted to try something totally different, so I went with their Mexican Donut Stout. As strange as the ingredients were - strong notes of cinnamon, followed by chocolate and coffee - I thought it was really good for a change of pace.

And speaking of change of pace, somehow this summer is the first I learned about whiskey and lemonade. I've even found a new use for some Jack Daniels honey whiskey I had lying around, since it pairs with Crystal Light to almost make a honey version of an Arnold Palmer. Nice to do something refreshing that also takes the edge off after a day of the kids testing the capacity of their toddlerhood.

Stay safe, stay healthy, stay thirsty...

 

[Bench]

We have different tastes in beverages, but I welcome the conversation topic. I'm normally a Blue Moon / Leinenkugel kinda guy, but it's fun to try new beers and new beverages in general.

Those were my gateway beers many years ago. I tried beer in college but it was always Miller Lite and Busch and the like, and I just sort thought I didn't like beer. It was drinkable, but I gravitated to wines and liquor so much more.

And then when I was at a liquor store the clerk tipped me off to Hoegaarden, which is basically Blue Moon. And I was like, hot damn, OK, I kinda love beer. Shortly after my buddy had me trying his favorite, the Sierra Nevada IPA, and I was hooked. Been downing hoppy beers every since.

So just as a benchmark, my absolute favorite beer and it's not even close is Bell's Two-Hearted. Between all the breweries I've visited and the beer fests, I bet I've had over a 100 different IPAs and I still go back to Two-Hearted as the gold standard. There's been some I've liked basically the same and some others that really are tremendous when I'm in the mood, but Bell's remains king.

I wish I had some recommendations for you guys, but basically everything I drink here is local. Not sure what kind of distribution some of them have.

This week has been unbearably hot so I've gone away from any IPAs and been enjoying refreshing Leinie Summer Shandy. Really easy drinker, very crisp, and the perfect companion on a summer walk or after mowing the lawn.

 

[MBH]

Oh no, it's been a very smooth experience, with massive gains relative to neighboring countries (sarcasm):

Sweden Has Become the World’s Cautionary Tale

And I think you meant higher mortality rates to its elderly population. Although senior citizens making too many good decisions DOES fit as throwing a monkey wrench in the crisis management strategy used by their government.

Written by an author who had an agenda.
He'd been on twitter calling the Swedes' program "quackery" ahead of the program.

Sweden didn't protect it's elderly.
Where as states like Michigan and New York and New Jersey made the tragic decision to house COVID-19 patients in nursing homes, Sweden made the choice not to use PPE in their nursing homes.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Those were my gateway beers many years ago. I tried beer in college but it was always Miller Lite and Busch and the like, and I just sort thought I didn't like beer. It was drinkable, but I gravitated to wines and liquor so much more.

And then when I was at a liquor store the clerk tipped me off to Hoegaarden, which is basically Blue Moon. And I was like, hot damn, OK, I kinda love beer. Shortly after my buddy had me trying his favorite, the Sierra Nevada IPA, and I was hooked. Been downing hoppy beers every since.

So just as a benchmark, my absolute favorite beer and it's not even close is Bell's Two-Hearted. Between all the breweries I've visited and the beer fests, I bet I've had over a 100 different IPAs and I still go back to Two-Hearted as the gold standard. There's been some I've liked basically the same and some others that really are tremendous when I'm in the mood, but Bell's remains king.

I wish I had some recommendations for you guys, but basically everything I drink here is local. Not sure what kind of distribution some of them have.

This week has been unbearably hot so I've gone away from any IPAs and been enjoying refreshing Leinie Summer Shandy. Really easy drinker, very crisp, and the perfect companion on a summer walk or after mowing the lawn.

I can't do Two Hearted. I know it's one that so many people like, so I keep trying it like once or twice a year. And I'm just repulsed by the bitterness. Most IPAs I'm not a fan of. However, once I'm done with a game or two in net... I'm good for drinking them. Must be all the ineffectual flopping around like I'm Dominik Hasek but really bad at hockey. Still will do a Blue Moon or a Gose before them though. Weak? Probably, but I like what I like.

As a continuation of this... I normally play goalie (Ice Hockey). I'm assuming a decent number of us on this site play as well. What positions do people play? I've skated out as a defenseman too... We had an all goalie team once (just people who played goalie, we rotated each game for the season). On that team, I basically got to be Ian White or Andreas Lilja. A complete and total worthless skater who maybe blocked one shot who was completely carried to an overall good result by a much much better partner.

 

[RabidBadger]

Those were my gateway beers many years ago. I tried beer in college but it was always Miller Lite and Busch and the like, and I just sort thought I didn't like beer. It was drinkable, but I gravitated to wines and liquor so much more.

And then when I was at a liquor store the clerk tipped me off to Hoegaarden, which is basically Blue Moon. And I was like, hot damn, OK, I kinda love beer. Shortly after my buddy had me trying his favorite, the Sierra Nevada IPA, and I was hooked. Been downing hoppy beers every since.

So just as a benchmark, my absolute favorite beer and it's not even close is Bell's Two-Hearted. Between all the breweries I've visited and the beer fests, I bet I've had over a 100 different IPAs and I still go back to Two-Hearted as the gold standard. There's been some I've liked basically the same and some others that really are tremendous when I'm in the mood, but Bell's remains king.

I wish I had some recommendations for you guys, but basically everything I drink here is local. Not sure what kind of distribution some of them have.

This week has been unbearably hot so I've gone away from any IPAs and been enjoying refreshing Leinie Summer Shandy. Really easy drinker, very crisp, and the perfect companion on a summer walk or after mowing the lawn.

Summer Shandy is my fave to get at Tigers games when I'm baking in the sun. I'm with you on the Two Hearted train. If I could only pick one beer to have on a deserted island....

Lately I've been sampling the hazy New England Ipa's but with this heat it's all lagers and sour beers. I will say the Sierra Nevada 40th anniversary Ipa is a pretty decent basic-biznatch ipa.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We have different tastes in beverages, but I welcome the conversation topic. I'm normally a Blue Moon / Leinenkugel kinda guy, but it's fun to try new beers and new beverages in general.

I'm about 20 minutes from Blake's Orchard in Armada. They're normally known for their hard ciders, but we recently tried a special they ran during the stay-at-home order, which included a growler of one of their specially beers. I wanted to try something totally different, so I went with their Mexican Donut Stout. As strange as the ingredients were - strong notes of cinnamon, followed by chocolate and coffee - I thought it was really good for a change of pace.

And speaking of change of pace, somehow this summer is the first I learned about whiskey and lemonade. I've even found a new use for some Jack Daniels honey whiskey I had lying around, since it pairs with Crystal Light to almost make a honey version of an Arnold Palmer. Nice to do something refreshing that also takes the edge off after a day of the kids testing the capacity of their toddlerhood.

Stay safe, stay healthy, stay thirsty...

I grew up over on that side of town. New Baltimore pretty dang close to the Selfridge Air National Guard base. We'd put baseball or football or street hockey games on hold when the planes would come in for a landing. They were loud as f***.

 

[jkutswings]

This week has been unbearably hot so I've gone away from any IPAs and been enjoying refreshing Leinie Summer Shandy. Really easy drinker, very crisp, and the perfect companion on a summer walk or after mowing the lawn.

Summer Shandy is my fave to get at Tigers games when I'm baking in the sun.

Music to my ears. For a long time my favorite beer was Sunset Wheat, but for some reason they stopped distributing it in southeast Michigan, then discontinued it altogether. Sad Panda.

Several years ago I was in Chicago for work, and I happened to try a local sports bar's Americanized version of a hefeweizen. Best beer I've ever had, and I feel like I've been chasing the white whale ever since, trying to find that particular palate again. (I prefer to be much farther towards the "banana" esters portion of the spectrum than most brewers use, especially the traditional ones, who strike a balance with the "cloves" phenols that the first Hefs had.) Ahh, first-world problems...

 

[FabricDetails]

This week has been unbearably hot so I've gone away from any IPAs and been enjoying refreshing Leinie Summer Shandy. Really easy drinker, very crisp, and the perfect companion on a summer walk or after mowing the lawn.

I don't really drink so I'm not one to give a great opinion on this but Summer Shandy is the MF-n truth. Not sure why I like it so much (because I don't really drink) but I bet I'm making some kind of emotional/psychological associations with it alongside a good time in my life. Like I think I first had it when I finally started working full-time in my current industry and perhaps I was just happy to finally be doing work that I like.

 

[newfy]

The trial results they released today about human trials for the oxford vaccine candidate are very promising. Over 1000 humans developed a strong immune response I believe, with no adverse health impacts. This is the vaccine theyve been mass producing while theyre testing it so that if the trials go well, its ready for mass distribution asap. The USA has 300 million doses developing right now

People talk about anti bodies only lasting a couple months, but the vaccine also develops t cell response which is another immune response different from anti bodies. A lot of times anti bodies only last a couple months for most diseases but the t cells provide longer immune response. This vaccine produces both which hopefully means longer term immunity. If everything goes according to plan, it should be ready for September possibly.

I also like that theyre mass producing it in a bunch of countries so that someone like Trump wont try to hoard the Worlds supply of it. Astrazeneca is the manufacturer I believe

 

[RabidBadger]

I can't do Two Hearted. I know it's one that so many people like, so I keep trying it like once or twice a year. And I'm just repulsed by the bitterness. Most IPAs I'm not a fan of. However, once I'm done with a game or two in net... I'm good for drinking them. Must be all the ineffectual flopping around like I'm Dominik Hasek but really bad at hockey. Still will do a Blue Moon or a Gose before them though. Weak? Probably, but I like what I like.

As a continuation of this... I normally play goalie (Ice Hockey). I'm assuming a decent number of us on this site play as well. What positions do people play? I've skated out as a defenseman too... We had an all goalie team once (just people who played goalie, we rotated each game for the season). On that team, I basically got to be Ian White or Andreas Lilja. A complete and total worthless skater who maybe blocked one shot who was completely carried to an overall good result by a much much better partner.

On the hockey bit: I'll play any skating position but defense is my preference. Right wing is my least fave. I've played exclusively in rec leagues (didn't start playing until I was 23). Sometimes the competition was pretty intense depending which place it was. Haven't skated for 9 years but I need to get my arse back on the ice when this pandemic poo gets gone.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

On the hockey bit: I'll play any skating position but defense is my preference. Right wing is my least fave. I've played exclusively in rec leagues (didn't start playing until I was 23). Sometimes the competition was pretty intense depending which place it was. Haven't skated for 9 years but I need to get my arse back on the ice when this pandemic poo gets gone.

where do you play at? I’m close to Ann Arbor. I’ve been one of the better goalies at D level and one of the worst at C level.

I do like playing as a wing occasionally. Go full Homer. It’s a real badge of honor to have people be crosschecking you in the back because you’re pissing them off by standing there. Kinda helpful being a goalie for that too. You know what the guy behind you is trying to set up to see.

E: I think that’s part of why Bench and I get on so well. We are both dumb enough to stand in front of a net and welcome people shooting rubber disks at us.

 

[RabidBadger]

where do you play at? I’m close to Ann Arbor. I’ve been one of the better goalies at D level and one of the worst at C level.

I do like playing as a wing occasionally. Go full Homer. It’s a real badge of honor to have people be crosschecking you in the back because you’re pissing them off by standing there. Kinda helpful being a goalie for that too. You know what the guy behind you is trying to set up to see.

E: I think that’s part of why Bench and I get on so well. We are both dumb enough to stand in front of a net and welcome people shooting rubber disks at us.

I moved to Michigan in 2012 and have yet to play here. I feel like Moses who was only able to view the promised land. I'm in Madison Heights close to the Detroit zoo so I imagine I'll try the Troy Sports complex, come the day.

Yeah, you goalies are a breed apart! More power to ya, man. It's a real bummer when only one goalie shows so I appreciate you brave men and women who don the pads.

Btw, I think you Summer Shandy lovers would like the Sea Quench lime. Pretty similar in terms of lightness and crispness. If you get it and don't like it then PM and I'll come drink it all.

 

[Bench]

Btw, I think you Summer Shandy lovers would like the Sea Quench lime. Pretty similar in terms of lightness and crispness. If you get it and don't like it then PM and I'll come drink it all.