Coronavirus discussion thread (no political debates) VII

[Chevboyarsky]

Are you asking me or telling me. This just a theory to you or waaaaa. Haha “who’s in the car”. Seriously, who’s in the car haha holy f****

Oh so you're actually 17 and living with your parents. Understood.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I bet AA meetings on Zoom are much more bearable when you can adjust your camera and pour yourself a nice stiff one and settle in. Pack a bowl and go for a whiz when someone is talking by blaming it on your poor connection. Lol, i told my great bud that the other day when we were talking about his quitting drinking with help of AA.
Make fun of things people. Six feet back or six feet under,your choice

Edit: had to run there but... This guy was entitled to nothing when he had to pull himself up from the bottom. Bill piled up when he was in rehab nobody cared enough then to carry the torch for him but his buds and family. They went through hell and having a close family and friends are the key to anything. Keep it real and be cool to each other ffs

The twelve-step program is a joke and grossly out of date and ineffective. You'd think we'd have developed a better form of rehabilitation for the substance with the most addicts than this antiquated theist nonsense.

From Wiki:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Oh so you're actually 17 and living with your parents. Understood.

Your assumptions are hilarious. I’m 71 and moved out two weeks ago. Stop making stuff up. Nahhh go ahead it suits you

 

[Chevboyarsky]

Your assumptions are hilarious. I’m 71 and moved out two weeks ago. Stop making stuff up. Nahhh go ahead it suits you

Cool beans. A better analogy would've been you come across a burning car and you can save a 71 year old, a 50 year old and 2 40-ish year olds but you can only save 3. Who do you pick? This is actually how medical professionals approach this kind of thing. Your analogy was poor, but poor for a reason and we both know why.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

The twelve-step program is a joke and grossly out of date and ineffective. You'd think we'd have developed a better form of rehabilitation for the substance with the most addicts than this antiquated theist nonsense.

From Wiki:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Maybe bro but it works/ helps so many I’m not going to bad mouth it. The safety net for people that get consumed by alcoholism is very thin at best. I was never to a meeting or involved other than helping my bud through it. He has never complained about it. Enjoys it actually. Could still break it any day and knows it. Fingers crossed he’s doing well with their help. It was mentally debilitating for him. Only help was personal. Which I shouldn’t ever call only but you what i mean

 

[Gabriel426]

I am one of those who is old enough to remember when medias(back then only TV, radio and newspaper) were promoting the use of condoms due to the spread of AIDS.
I can’t imagine if that happened today.
There will be people saying it is their choice not to wear a condom.
There will be people using stats to state Any sickness kills more people than AIDS or the infection rate is lower than other STDs.
Then there will be those stating only certain people(sailors and sex workers) have higher risk of getting it....thus the others are safe.

Anyhow, back to COVID. Apparently, a big announcement is coming in BC in a few hours. The indication is about restrictions on inter province travel. Don’t know how that’s going help, if the existing tracking system is still in place. The whole Country need to revamp the tracking system.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Cool beans. A better analogy would've been you come across a burning car and you can save a 71 year old, a 50 year old and 2 40-ish year olds but you can only save 3. Who do you pick? This is actually how medical professionals approach this kind of thing. Your analogy was poor, but poor for a reason and we both know why.

Wht a sh*tty way of looking at da world man ... there is no need for us to be like Italy ... totally unprepared and with a medical system completely underfunded

 

[Mickey Marner]

Maybe bro but it works/ helps so many I’m not going to bad mouth it. The safety net for people that get consumed by alcoholism is very thin at best. I was never to a meeting or involved other than helping my bud through it. He has never complained about it. Enjoys it actually. Could still break it any day and knows it. Fingers crossed he’s doing well with their help. It was mentally debilitating for him. Only help was personal. Which I shouldn’t ever call only but you what i mean

I'm sure it works for some people, but our treatment of alcoholics/recovering alcoholics could be greatly improved. Best of luck to your buddy though.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Cool beans. A better analogy would've been you come across a burning car and you can save a 71 year old, a 50 year old and 2 40-ish year olds but you can only save 3. Who do you pick? This is actually how medical professionals approach this kind of thing. Your analogy was poor, but poor for a reason and we both know why.

If thats better for you use that. Fact is its a made up theory and they will shutter down before they allow our healthcare system to crash to that. I don’t even know if you remember what you are talking about.

 

[Kiwi]

Cool beans. A better analogy would've been you come across a burning car and you can save a 71 year old, a 50 year old and 2 40-ish year olds but you can only save 3. Who do you pick? This is actually how medical professionals approach this kind of thing. Your analogy was poor, but poor for a reason and we both know why.

I think triage may be a little advanced for him

On your earlier post we shouldn't just be using the advise of medical professionals in our decision making process either, economic factors like poverty rates, employment and debt load need to be taken into account also

 

[Chevboyarsky]

Wht a sh*tty way of looking at da world man ... there is no need for us to be like Italy ... totally unprepared and with a medical system completely underfunded

I mean....time will tell. We've had hundreds of thousands of years of exactly that strategy. Luckily for you and others your strategy is the one in place. If it fails (and not because of non-compliance) the blood is on your hands.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'm sure it works for some people, but our treatment of alcoholics/recovering alcoholics could be greatly improved. Best of luck to your buddy though.

Absolutely champ. It’s been ignored and frankly prejudiced. Some people are just wired to have mental health issues and its never been tackled ever. We know that. I am definitely in favour of helping people with mental health issues. Past practice says they won’t. I’m glad it comes up. Everyone should welcome the opportunity to expose that it has never been fixed to a proper degree in this very medically advanced modern era. There is more that can be done with progress in whats know about mental health. Seems they aren’t interested in the investment to me. Sad really.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I think triage may be a little advanced for him

On your earlier post we shouldn't just be using the advise of medical professionals in our decision making process either, economic factors like poverty rates, employment and debt load need to be taken into account also

I think your record is skipping

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I meant to put Beda Stadler of the Bern Institute in there too (I did in another post), and both him and Hodkinson are experts in their field - both highly respected. Again, Rancourt may be what you say he is, but let me state this again - that does not make him wrong. Hodkinson and Stadler agree on his point.

No one is saying that the virus isn't real, or isn't deadly to the elderly and immuno-compromised people. What is up for debate is the effectiveness of masks and social distancing.

In addition, the PCR test that is widely used was never intended to be a tool for diagnosing infection. Portugal just made it unlawful to quarantine based on a positive PCR test, as the current threshold of 35 cycles or more gives rise to a 97% false positive rate. The PCR cannot distinguish between live and dead viruses, as it was designed only to multiply samples.

Yet this is the very science that is the bedrock of the current policies (PCR test + mask + social distancing).

I am just saying let's not close the door and make this a slam dunk. It should be ok to have debate on a position since all 3 appear to have at least some question marks. Echo chambering is dangerous because it excludes all debate on a topic.

There was an interview with Fauci recently where he said they only had to dial down the cycles to get rid of a lot of false positives. My bet is the dialing down happens around jan 20.

I tested positive on sunday after thinking I had a UTI for 10 days...turns out it was the 'Rona. The doctors at the hospital said that since I had symptoms (fever only) that the test is very accurate...he said it goes wonky when they test people with zero symptoms and the inaccuracies start to really add up. They told me to take tylenol and rest...my fever stopped the minute I stopped taking the antibiotics for the non existent UTI...that part is odd..was my fever because of the antibiotics or the covid...I guess I will never know.

 

[ITM]

The twelve-step program is a joke and grossly out of date and ineffective. You'd think we'd have developed a better form of rehabilitation for the substance with the most addicts than this antiquated theist nonsense.

From Wiki:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Strong anti-theist preferences aside, AA has helped people. Doubtless, the program without supplemental medical consistency of care for chemical dependency raises questions of reasonable expectation for sustained successful outcome.

But a person failing within the program isn't predicated on a belief in God. Environment and support all around lead to reformed lives. Without support, most endeavors fail. Hate to say it, but without some material reassurance, safety net, it's a very hard thing to fight against chemistry and biology that's been completely deformed into engines requiring abusive substance as it's necessary fuel.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think triage may be a little advanced for him

On your earlier post we shouldn't just be using the advise of medical professionals in our decision making process either, economic factors like poverty rates, employment and debt load need to be taken into account also

No doubt about it, but at the same time, they(govt) need to find the best solution(which means some section of the Country will suffer). It is a zero sum game and something got to give. To me what bothers me the most being all these yo-yos who are out partying and shows no concerns of others is the fact that during two months or so lockdown in Canada, they didn’t even bother developing protocols and tracking system to help combat this pandemic. Not sure about where you guys live, but in BC, one of the protocols for exposure is monitoring the situation but life goes on as normal. To me that’s a piss poor way of tracking and containing. I don’t understand why the govt can’t mandate mandatory 14days isolation plus a list of people and places they have been in contact. I know that is a lot of work and might cause public panic but that’s need to be done to contain the spread. At least, that’s my opinion.

 

[Chevboyarsky]

I think your record is skipping

Is that you Donald?

 

[Mickey Marner]

Strong anti-theist preferences aside, AA has helped people. Doubtless, the program without supplemental medical consistency of care for chemical dependency raises questions of reasonable expectation for sustained successful outcome.

But a person failing within the program isn't predicated on a belief in God. Environment and support all around lead to reformed lives. Without support, most endeavors fail. Hate to say it, but without some material reassurance, safety net, it's a very hard thing to fight against chemistry and biology that's been completely deformed into engines requiring abusive substance as it's necessary fuel.

To be clear, I'm not anti-theism in general. I just think it should be optional, not the basis for alcohol/narcotic recovery addiction. Our society has come too far in the last century to be using such rudimentary forms of recovery.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

No doubt about it, but at the same time, they(govt) need to find the best solution(which means some section of the Country will suffer). It is a zero sum game and something got to give. To me what bothers me the most being all these yo-yos who are out partying and shows no concerns of others is the fact that during two months or so lockdown in Canada, they didn’t even bother developing protocols and tracking system to help combat this pandemic. Not sure about where you guys live, but in BC, one of the protocols for exposure is monitoring the situation but life goes on as normal. To me that’s a piss poor way of tracking and containing. I don’t understand why the govt can’t mandate mandatory 14days isolation plus a list of people and places they have been in contact. I know that is a lot of work and might cause public panic but that’s need to be done to contain the spread. At least, that’s my opinion.

Here here .. in Ontario they were doing it .. then when cases started going up all of a sudden it gets killed as Ford says they can't keep up .. because they s*ck at developing a good system and have not figured out how to re engineer govt quickly to move people to this area for a year ... good god sacrifice finance and environment and more if you need to for a while .. so damn lazy and lots of stupid .. think greater good

 

[kb]

There was an interview with Fauci recently where he said they only had to dial down the cycles to get rid of a lot of false positives. My bet is the dialing down happens around jan 20.

I tested positive on sunday after thinking I had a UTI for 10 days...turns out it was the 'Rona. The doctors at the hospital said that since I had symptoms (fever only) that the test is very accurate...he said it goes wonky when they test people with zero symptoms and the inaccuracies start to really add up. They told me to take tylenol and rest...my fever stopped the minute I stopped taking the antibiotics for the non existent UTI...that part is odd..was my fever because of the antibiotics or the covid...I guess I will never know.

Oh wow. Sorry to hear that! Hope you are feeling OK now.

That's unreal.....running a fever until you stopped taking the antibiotics. Maybe it is something that is an interaction issue.

 

[4thline]

Step 1.

This is the time of the year where there are surges in all illness, not just Covid. It's seasonally based, and not adjusting for that predictable rise that would be rather disingenuous. No leap required, it is statistically verifiable. That is why there is a flu season, and not consistent flu numbers all year. So any surge in Covid must be viewed through this same lens. When Hodkinson said it's like a flu - this is exactly what he means.

Step 2.

How much research and money has been put into strengthening the immune system of those who are the most at risk? The fact that there is a demonstrable link between Vitamin D3 deficiency and not only Covid, but most illnesses, should be a huge flag as to what direction we should be focusing efforts. Anecdotally, I have been sick once in the past 12 years, and I used to get one or more of bronchitis, strep, and pneumonia on a near annual basis since I was a child. (I am very immuno-compromised).

This is were there should have been research and much cause for hope, but most of the money goes into finding a "cure" when there should be significant money earmarked for studies on prevention. This is even less invasive, and shows much greater promise and effectiveness than mask wearing or social distancing. But sadly, crickets....

So let me try to understand this.....you want to lockdown healthy people to protect the immuno-compromised? I am trying to understand....as this seems draconian and even more discriminatory than the opposite - as there is no medical or ethical justification for keeping healthy people locked up and away from each other, while simultaneously weakening their immune systems. That would seem rather counter intuitive, and definitely counterproductive to the end goal of eradication.

He was making a point that you have almost no chance of dying of this if you are under the age of 65. That is the case for almost every known illness - Covid included. That point extends far beyond just Covid.

Again, I am not saying I know all the answers. But we need to look at all angles on this.

Re- Step 1-
Except that the seasonal flu barely hit the Southern hemisphere this year, and is early indicators are that it has been hugely reduced in the Northern. If measures have greatly reduced the seasonal impact of the flu it stands to reason that same measures have greatly reduced the impact of a super flu. It's a multi-variate function. It seems arrogant to assume that infectious disease specialists all over the world aren't controlling for the impact of seasonality. Trying to explain away the extremely light flu seasons with anything other than "the extreme and unprecedent efforts to reduce the spread of respiratory viruses have reduced the spread of respiratory viruses" flies in the face of occam's razor.

Re step 2- not viable in the shorterm. Long term chronic deficiencies are not fixed on the first supplement, nor tenth.. life style changes are not enacted overnight, and their benefits are even longer term. As an endgame sure. It absolutely should be discussed and encouraged. I agree completely.

Re- the bold. Completely incorrect. An imposition on everyone for the benefit of the less fortunate is not only by definition not discrimination (you're treating everyone the same) but you could argue that it's a foundational principle of society and what separates man from animal. Whereas isolating the at risk while we go about our lives because their safety is too much of an expense, too much of an inconvenience would be equivalent to barring the blind or deaf from both employment and public spaces.

Re under 65, that's a gross misrepresentation of reality and a misleading use of statistics, trying to paint a picture where it's only true seniors that would be at risk and need to be protected and that everyone else is characterized by one common low risk rate. That's simply not the case. By CDC numbers there is a 160 fold difference between mortality in 40-49 and 5-17. 480 in 50-64 vs. 5-17. Whereas compared to 65-74 the difference is 9 and 3 respectively.

 

[Kiwi]

No doubt about it, but at the same time, they(govt) need to find the best solution(which means some section of the Country will suffer). It is a zero sum game and something got to give. To me what bothers me the most being all these yo-yos who are out partying and shows no concerns of others is the fact that during two months or so lockdown in Canada, they didn’t even bother developing protocols and tracking system to help combat this pandemic. Not sure about where you guys live, but in BC, one of the protocols for exposure is monitoring the situation but life goes on as normal. To me that’s a piss poor way of tracking and containing. I don’t understand why the govt can’t mandate mandatory 14days isolation plus a list of people and places they have been in contact. I know that is a lot of work and might cause public panic but that’s need to be done to contain the spread. At least, that’s my opinion.

I don't blame people who are now just living they're lives normally

What we did wasn't sustainable and that was obvious from the start but instead of using the time we gained productively it was squandered and large sections of people aren't going to go accept that again

Lockdowns only worked because people were willing to comply with them, I'm not sure that's going to happen again

 

[Wafflewhipper]

There was an interview with Fauci recently where he said they only had to dial down the cycles to get rid of a lot of false positives. My bet is the dialing down happens around jan 20.

I tested positive on sunday after thinking I had a UTI for 10 days...turns out it was the 'Rona. The doctors at the hospital said that since I had symptoms (fever only) that the test is very accurate...he said it goes wonky when they test people with zero symptoms and the inaccuracies start to really add up. They told me to take tylenol and rest...my fever stopped the minute I stopped taking the antibiotics for the non existent UTI...that part is odd..was my fever because of the antibiotics or the covid...I guess I will never know.

Hope you get well fast bud.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I don't blame people who are now just living they're lives normally

What we did wasn't sustainable and that was obvious from the start but instead of using the time we gained productively it was squandered and large sections of people aren't going to go accept that again

Lockdowns only worked because people were willing to comply with them, I'm not sure that's going to happen again

You are in a country that hardly has any man. You go do that there. We can’t. I will comply with it. Don’t tell me what i will do

 

[Kiwi]

Here here .. in Ontario they were doing it .. then when cases started going up all of a sudden it gets killed as Ford says they can't keep up .. because they s*ck at developing a good system and have not figured out how to re engineer govt quickly to move people to this area for a year ... good god sacrifice finance and environment and more if you need to for a while .. so damn lazy and lots of stupid .. think greater good

Sacrifice finance? How do you think governments pay for this stuff?

Resources aren't unlimited