Coronavirus (COVID-19)

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LOGiK

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Nov 14, 2007
18,319
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@ColePens

You were asking about pay dates,

Looks like my friend is also getting it on 15 April. He makes a lot of money too so it looks like income levels aren't a thing with direct deposit.

Mailed checks will go out weekly by income levels though: lowest incomes first.

If that helps ya. You were asking the other day about it....
 

Jacob

as seen on TV
Feb 27, 2002
49,506
25,112
My company, who is ran by utter morons, is already asking some people to come back into the office.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,414
6,450

LOGiK

Registered User
Nov 14, 2007
18,319
9,042
What is this shit I'm seeing you have to do a national blood test to get a certificate to "have confidence to go outside" and back to work?


Are you ****ing kidding me!?!?
 

Pens1566

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
18,421
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WV
The problem with using asymptomatic #s as a base in calculations is you're not sure they stay asymptomatic as opposed to simply being currently asymptomatic. This thing can take weeks to show symptoms. Which is a huge part of the problem.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
@ColePens

You were asking about pay dates,

Looks like my friend is also getting it on 15 April. He makes a lot of money too so it looks like income levels aren't a thing with direct deposit.

Mailed checks will go out weekly by income levels though: lowest incomes first.

If that helps ya. You were asking the other day about it....

Thank you - i'm just trying to share with my friend whatever i can. I have 3 friends who are small business owners. They are trying but aren't the best with business stuff. I have my full time job and dont qualify for anything so i have ZERO clue what the timeline in. I'm trying to help as best as possible when it comes to apply for stuff or just dates.

Nobody has received shit for communication on their payroll/sbloans/etc. It's been tough for them.
 
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bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
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**************** warning math, nerd alert, skip now if math makes your eyes glaze over ***************

Iceland has been testing non symptomatic and has found that 50% of their positives are asymptomatic and it's likely to be much higher (asymptomatic postives as they aren't doing antibody but rather active virus tests). The number actually exposed could, in theory, be 50x what we have reported. Which like i said means we are close to seasonal flu for a mortality rate. CDC is at least updating their numbers now, up until recently they had this pegged at a R0 of 2.2 which didn't make any math sense. High Contagiousness and Rapid Spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2
Now in that article this figure is germane: Figure 5 - High Contagiousness and Rapid Spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 - Volume 26, Number 7—July 2020 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC

In that study I still think they haven't adequately accounted for asymptomatic infected folks, still lets run with their study. If this virus was circulating much earlier then we thought quite a few folks have been exposed. That article out of cali was thinkin that the infection was there for a month or more before social distancing measures were implemented. IF, the R0 value is towards the higher side which CDC has pegged at 9 (i have read journals where it could be as high as 25) and let's assume an incubation period of 5 days before an infected person gets infectious and can spread it. In one month from ONE infected individual a value of 9 and every 5 days each of those causing 9 new people to get infected in one month that 9 to the 6th power or 534K people.

But let's back this down to the middle of the road estimate by the CDC and a R0 value of 5.7, that results in 34K infected. That is obviously much lower But still that is with a seed start of only 1 person, if you think it's reasonable that there were, say, 10 people that were infected and started seeding it in cali a month ahead of time, you get 340K infected.

Of course, these numbers are based on an assumption that the virus was present a month before California locked down, and that the CDC's models that are trending now are accurate. So this could be completely wrong if the base assumptions are incorrect but they don't seem to be unreasonable assumptions. Also the R0 value is supposed to take into account overlaps.

So given all that. if we have 340K exposed/infected in Cali, that is roughly 14x more prevalent then reported. There are 682 deaths attributed to Covid19 that would make the mortality rate be something like 0.2%. Seasonal flu is something like 0.1% were recent rates where more like 0.14% in a bad flu season. a 0.06% difference in mortality rate is not worth closing society down like this. Sorry grandma, it's not. It is worth doing a measured/controlled isolation like in sweden. If the number is 14x ( i think it's higher) we are still talking about a 0.3% mortality rate in NY.

One last time, I can be completely wrong here as the data is very incomplete. But I can't turn my math brain off and this seems to be where the data is trending. Sorry for the stream of mathness to those that don't want.... ;)
This reads like a "choose your own adventure" book. You are choosing an order of assumptions to reach a certain conclusion, and that isn't how any scientific process is conducted. You are only correct in that we do not have enough data.
 

AlphaMikeFoxtrots

The Sounds of Silence
Sponsor
Oct 17, 2014
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And FEMA is already all hands on deck doing Corona work.

Y E P. plus emergency response, people who need to go to shelters...it's not just pandemic in a vacuum, so to speak. Not that it ever was, but now it's a whole other set of layers of complication.
 

LOGiK

Registered User
Nov 14, 2007
18,319
9,042
Thank you - i'm just trying to share with my friend whatever i can. I have 3 friends who are small business owners. They are trying but aren't the best with business stuff. I have my full time job and dont qualify for anything so i have ZERO clue what the timeline in. I'm trying to help as best as possible when it comes to apply for stuff or just dates.

Nobody has received shit for communication on their payroll/sbloans/etc. It's been tough for them.

You're welcome.

Yeah, I remember you said about your buddies... so I just came home and my friend msg'd me and said he too is getting the full amount 15 April.
Direct deposit to his bank account, he filed jointly with kids.

I'd tell your friends to check their bank accounts. By now they should have a deposit pending from the IRS for Wednesday.

If they filed and got a refund (or no refund - no direct deposit info) on that emerald card, or whatever it is called, I believe the IRS sends paper checks to them. So if they are waiting for paper checks..... it's gonna be a minute. Not a hot minute... a long cold minute.

That's all I got.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
50,795
32,860
this is exactly the thing I've been saying for a few weeks now. I'm fairly convinced that this is way more infectous then initially told, and that china hid this long enough that it spread before we even knew they had human-human transmission going on. Which in my head is actually good news. If that is true the mortality rate of this is more akin to seasonal flu because there are a vast number of undiagnosed people who didn't know they had it. It also means we should adopt sweden's response and open society back up. Though data will drive this as we find out more. All the more reason we need widespread anti-body testing. That might be the most important thing we need right now.

except you’re assuming that while positive cases have been underreported, deaths have not...in fact, deaths have been underreported too...lots of people died earlier from what people thought was pneumonia, or at home before they were ever tested, and therefore do not count in the death totals...
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,414
6,450
except you’re assuming that while positive cases have been underreported, deaths have not...in fact, deaths have been underreported too...lots of people died earlier from what people thought was pneumonia, or at home before they were ever tested, and therefore do not count in the death totals...
Plus New York state in the last 3 weeks alone has triple the number of COVID-19 deaths than there would be in a whole year of a bad flu season.

He does make a great argument as to why epidemiologists, not statisticians, should be modeling the spread of coronavirus.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
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I don't know that Iceland's the best place to look at to understand what covid does or doesn't do, on account of everyone in Iceland being third cousins with everyone else in Iceland. Covid susceptibility has a genetic component that is poorly-understood. Iceland has some of the least genetic diversity of any place on Earth. It's literally one extended family. The presence or lack of presence of this genetic vulnerability will be amplified and it will produce estimates that are of little relevance to, say, Brazil.

The problem with using asymptomatic #s as a base in calculations is you're not sure they stay asymptomatic as opposed to simply being currently asymptomatic. This thing can take weeks to show symptoms. Which is a huge part of the problem.

For the purposes of estimating how widespread and dangerous covid is, which is what's being talked about, whether a person is symptomatic, asymptomatic, future symptomatic, past symptomatic (etc) is not only not a huge part of any problem, but does not matter at all until the day that person is a) hospitalized due to covid or b) dies due to covid.

"Asymptomatic" cases are only being brought up due to their possible utility as one indicator that the prevalence of covid is being underestimated (and thereby its mortality rate overestimated). True prevalence (or, at least, a better guess at it) is needed to assess how dangerous covid actually is. True prevalence can be compared against the counting totals of covid-positive hospitalization and covid-positive deaths--which are much more accurate at this point than our guesses at total infections--to get rate statistics. Rate statistics will decide proper policy, to state actors, individuals, medical infrastructure, businesses, localities etc.

After Milan collapsed, Western governments began (understandably) operating under the assumption that covid had an r0 of 4-5, hospitalized 20% of infectees and killed something like 5-7% of infectees. The measures put in place at the beginning of March are predicated on those rates. Time and testing has shown that the rates are unquestionably an overestimation (apart from, perhaps, the r0). The questions that need to be answered now to figure out how to proceed are what the actual r0 is, what actual percentage it hospitalizes and what actual percentage it kills.

To do this requires polling-style random population sampling (which, supposedly, began to be implemented on Friday). The idea is that the current asymptomatic cases are not counted and need to be able to be estimated in order to understand the landscape. When counting asymptomatic cases, that an asymptomatic person might have a runny nose and fever next week is not important. What's important is to get currently invisible infections estimated into the data set.
 

vikingGoalie

Registered User
Oct 31, 2010
2,902
1,327
except you’re assuming that while positive cases have been underreported, deaths have not...in fact, deaths have been underreported too...lots of people died earlier from what people thought was pneumonia, or at home before they were ever tested, and therefore do not count in the death totals...

while true, the death count is not even in the same magnitude of 14x (or 20x). we have had 22K reported deaths in the USA attributed to Covid-19. If the under reported death rate was 14x that would be 308K deaths and we have no where near that number. So while what you are saying is true and will effect the math numbers some, it's not as significant as you might think. There was a total Death estimate by the CDC of the previous (2018-2019) of 34K deaths in the US. This is a bad flu season already and estimates are that we are between 24K and 62K flu related deaths this season thus far. So for sake of argument. Let's say that we are at the top end of that ,62K, and that 34K are the season flu, you would be looking at worst case an additional 28K deaths. Or a total of 50K dead from covid 19 in the USA, if we apply the 14x formula against the reported covid19 cases that's 8M infected/exposed. Or a mortality rate of 0.6% which *IS* worse then my numbers of 0.3% in NY. but still way better then the 2-5% rate originally projected and I was using a worst case assumption, so it could easily be more towards 0.3%.

Also this report: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/pdf/covidview.pdf cdc is trying to ascertain true penetration into the populace of covid 19. A 14.5% rate won't maintain (rate of positive's in tests administered) but still that maps to a number of 44M infected americans. But like I said that's to limited in scope/geography as of yet to use.

i do fully admit that I'm making some base assumptions that could end up being flat out wrong. But they are reasoned assumptions and inline with several studies being done right now. So basically if I'm wrong I can shrug off criticism saying I said could be wrong, but I get to bask in the glory if I'm right. lol kidding of course. just been cooped up for too long so had to exercise my brain on all this for a bit...
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
48,053
32,080
Praha, CZ
The big and unsatisfying answer to both Billy and Pens’ points is just that the virus is too poorly understood right now to make any kind of prediction with accuracy. Given more, and more importantly — better, days collection, we might be able to figure that out in the next few months, but it depends on the quality of the data, like anything else.

But considering one of the people who exposed me to the virus is still in a medically induced coma at the ancient age of 51, I err on the side of caution with it.
 

SouthGeorge

Registered User
May 2, 2018
7,960
3,078
What’s the insinuation? Rich and powerful people pal around all the time.

COVID19 is part of some Illuminati plan to kill an overall insignificant number of us and cripple the economy for months?

There's plenty of theories out there. I'm not Ja Rule, I don't have the answers. I think it's funny people think their friends or some average person is scheming or doing something for their interest. But the insinuation of somebody with money and power doing something for themselves is asinine. Like they have some moral compass above us all. At the end of the day everybody only cares about themselves rich or poor.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,342
28,366
There's plenty of theories out there. I'm not Ja Rule, I don't have the answers. I think it's funny people think their friends or some average person is scheming or doing something for their interest. But the insinuation of somebody with money and power doing something for themselves is asinine. Like they have some moral compass above us all. At the end of the day everybody only cares about themselves rich or poor.

Speak for yourself, bud.
 

ZeroPucksGiven

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
6,338
4,275
The big and unsatisfying answer to both Billy and Pens’ points is just that the virus is too poorly understood right now to make any kind of prediction with accuracy. Given more, and more importantly — better, days collection, we might be able to figure that out in the next few months, but it depends on the quality of the data, like anything else.

This is what I keep saying: there's so much missing data to draw ANY CONCLUSIONS that things are improving or worsening
 
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