OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Part IV - II

Status
Not open for further replies.

Barnaby

Registered User
Jul 2, 2003
8,650
3,414
Port Jefferson, NY
wouldn't wearing masks in all stores by default lower the transmission rate? I know we can't put a value on it, but let's say it halves it (hypothetically). Coupled with people still working from home and schools and sporting events canceled wouldn't that in and of itself mitigate the cases from soaring again like at the beginning?

what does everyone think about a place like Disney or Universal? Can they open for the summer and would they require people to wear a mask? I can only speak for myself, but I have a trip booked to universal for the middle of July. If they were to open but required me to wear a mask in the park, I would do it. It sure would be weird but I really don't think a mask detracts from the experience at a place like that.

Kids are generally pretty unhygienic. I feel like you’d be too paranoid plus the flight... It would also probably be pretty brutal wearing a mask when it’s 99 degrees, the sweats running into your eyes and mask while your trying not to touch your face. Personally, I’d reschedule. Find a secluded beach somewhere and drink some margaritas... but that’s me !
 
  • Like
Reactions: bl02

Ola

Registered User
Apr 10, 2004
34,597
11,595
Sweden
Saw this:
After Anonymous Tip, 17 Bodies Are Found at Nursing Home Hit by Virus

Wouldn't be surprised if the death rates sky rocketed more or less all over when we look back at this thin a year from now. Its the same in Italy and many other European countries:
Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported

Deaths at nursing homes are often not counted or missed. In Italy the number of deaths the last quarter is a lot higher than average number of deaths during the same period previous years, and the Corona-count does not even remotely account for the difference.

All countries must start to get sample testing going ASAP. Supposedly testing for antibodies is a lot faster and less time consuming than testing for the virus itself. Naturally, it takes a couple of weeks to develop antibodies, but by starting to get numbers today they can be bench marked and the progress can be studied the coming weeks. I can't believe anyone is snozzing on this to get started, but once we start to hear more news on testing of antibodies on a randomly chosen number of people reflective of the society they live in we will know that progress is being made.
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
9,755
5,585
For me we were already heading towards bad consequences as it was. The wealth gap was widening and widening. Young people stuck with loads of college debt--not getting the kinds of work to pay off their loans---putting well off into the future things like buying a home or getting married--having children. We were setting them up for a life of indentured servitude. So there's the potential to take an awful and castastrophic event and put ourselves on another path. One of the points that Naomi Klein made in her Shock Doctrine is that after a disaster there are usually numerous ideas and options lying around to be picked up on the road to whatever recovery takes place afterwards. It's obvious though to me with so many who are going to be out of work--unable to pay for things like rent that what is going to have to happen here is going to have to be very people-centric because letting wealthy entities take the lion's share as per usual is going to absolutely crash the economy and very likely that will lead to some kind of societal revolt--whatever form(s) that takes. Now I don't like a whole lot of politicians but even so I think more of them are realistic enough to see reality than not.

We're also use to certain ideas about society or about the economy that have been with us our entire lifetimes. That doesn't mean though there aren't other ways. To me there are all kinds of unexplored alternatives---sometimes they just need a chance. On our political I'm hearing things from people as diverse as Cuomo, Romney, Hawley that I never thought I'd ever hear before. Some of these people are already kind of brainstorming---nothing is stopping any of us from brainstorming either.
They way I see it, risk reward supply demand are going to be paramount, like they always have been.

To restore trust, thus lower risk and increase demand, We need health. We need the current sick people to get better. Then some sort of viable treatment and extensive testing both for the virus and for immunity. If immunity only last a short period of time, or if some do not develop enough antibodies to even give them temporary immunity, the whole idea of restarting stuff will come down to taking ones chances by going out into public.

If herd immunity ideas comes to be, people are going to want to know their chances of contracting the virus, their chances of getting very sick rather than it being mild or them being asymptomatic, and their chances of mortality should their contract it. None of that is know as of yet, it's going to take time, I don't see any silver bullet, instantaneous game changer. (I mean I know I could get hit by a bus, yet I'm pretty darn sure I could have seen the bus, I have had the flu before and know I have a ~99.8% estimated chance of surviving it, this is different)

I feel for those who want to restart the economy that should be their top priority. Take care of the current sick, do the best they can to keep others healthy. Give the medical community as many resources as they possible can. In the scale above put the onus on the bigger solutions which are plain just going to take time. While I see some in government agree to that to an extent, it looks like others are more thinking let's just go with herd immunity and hope for the best.

To play out a herd immunity scenario, those who have the means to stay out of public are going to wait for those who do not have that option to be basically test subjects. One group has a different risk/reward scale than the other group. The people who have the take the bigger risk are likely to be the poorer who need to get back to work asap just to feed themselves and their families.(likely those without great heath care) If that turns out well, not a large jump in infections, etc, others who have more means will start to take part. Those with the most means will be the last to take part.

If the herd immunity ideas go poorly everyone ends back up in a more restrictive lock-down. What does that do for public or consumer confidence? The lock down ideas will be countered by those who feel their liberty is being taken away. The ideological divide will just grow larger. (Which may be inevitable no matter what)

As far as the world changing in a positive way out of this, in some regards I am optimistic. Mostly I believe people can adapt to pretty much anything. People are a innovative, forward thinking creatures. My pessimism, that innovative thinking can be used in a variety of ways where some of those ways do nothing for the greater good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fireonk

eco's bones

Registered User
Jul 21, 2005
26,126
12,516
Elmira NY
They way I see it, risk reward supply demand are going to be paramount, like they always have been.

To restore trust, thus lower risk and increase demand, We need health. We need the current sick people to get better. Then some sort of viable treatment and extensive testing both for the virus and for immunity. If immunity only last a short period of time, or if some do not develop enough antibodies to even give them temporary immunity, the whole idea of restarting stuff will come down to taking ones chances by going out into public.

If herd immunity ideas comes to be, people are going to want to know their chances of contracting the virus, their chances of getting very sick rather than it being mild or them being asymptomatic, and their chances of mortality should their contract it. None of that is know as of yet, it's going to take time, I don't see any silver bullet, instantaneous game changer. (I mean I know I could get hit by a bus, yet I'm pretty darn sure I could have seen the bus, I have had the flu before and know I have a ~99.8% estimated chance of surviving it, this is different)

I feel for those who want to restart the economy that should be their top priority. Take care of the current sick, do the best they can to keep others healthy. Give the medical community as many resources as they possible can. In the scale above put the onus on the bigger solutions which are plain just going to take time. While I see some in government agree to that to an extent, it looks like others are more thinking let's just go with herd immunity and hope for the best.

To play out a herd immunity scenario, those who have the means to stay out of public are going to wait for those who do not have that option to be basically test subjects. One group has a different risk/reward scale than the other group. The people who have the take the bigger risk are likely to be the poorer who need to get back to work asap just to feed themselves and their families.(likely those without great heath care) If that turns out well, not a large jump in infections, etc, others who have more means will start to take part. Those with the most means will be the last to take part.

If the herd immunity ideas go poorly everyone ends back up in a more restrictive lock-down. What does that do for public or consumer confidence? The lock down ideas will be countered by those who feel their liberty is being taken away. The ideological divide will just grow larger. (Which may be inevitable no matter what)

As far as the world changing in a positive way out of this, in some regards I am optimistic. Mostly I believe people can adapt to pretty much anything. People are a innovative, forward thinking creatures. My pessimism, that innovative thinking can be used in a variety of ways where some of those ways do nothing for the greater good.

Herd immunity may come in time but in no way, shape or form should it be forced. More people will die and you'll end up overwhelming the hospital system again. As is herd immunity might start to get her about the time a vaccine becomes available--or a year or longer from now.
 

NYR Viper

Registered User
Sep 9, 2007
47,010
16,806
Jacksonville, FL
Herd immunity may come in time but in no way, shape or form should it be forced. More people will die and you'll end up overwhelming the hospital system again. As is herd immunity might start to get her about the time a vaccine becomes available--or a year or longer from now.

In saying that, if there are age groups that are more than likely fine with recovering naturally they should be allowed back out in public right away. Say 18-40
 

NYSPORTS

back afta dis. . .
Jun 17, 2019
7,993
4,459
They way I see it, risk reward supply demand are going to be paramount, like they always have been.

To restore trust, thus lower risk and increase demand, We need health. We need the current sick people to get better. Then some sort of viable treatment and extensive testing both for the virus and for immunity. If immunity only last a short period of time, or if some do not develop enough antibodies to even give them temporary immunity, the whole idea of restarting stuff will come down to taking ones chances by going out into public.

.

Lot of great points in your whole post.

Being selective, the underlined it what scares us all. Flash forward a short year can you get it a 2nd time? If a victim of covid19 had some lung capacity permanently compromised, let’s say 10%, what happens if they get it again? Add another 10% of damage or worse?

Like you posted, will come down to taking chances by going out into the public. Speaking of chances, what are the chances somebody finds a home run vaccine that sticks from the outset? So many vaccines go back to the drawing board time and time again.

Let’s hope with more minds working on the same project we improve the chances of discovering that home run vaccine we all need.

Strange times
 
  • Like
Reactions: Off Sides

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
Eventually - probably sooner than later - that’s what I think is going to happen. They’ll throw a caveat out that anyone who falls into a high risk category or shows symptoms should stay quarantined. Unfortunately, our economy can only deal with a complete shut down for so long. Also, too many people won’t abide by the rules and/or will be doing stupid things like touching their phones with gloves etc...
I think that it goes further than that. You can and should take a measured approach. But ultimately, the economy is not going to get back to normal while social distancing is enforced. Much of it depends on quite the opposite. I mean, just look at the supermarkets. They cannot possibly continue for a good length of time if forced to operate with half capacity.

Then start to discuss the devastating effects on kids and children. There already was a report out about how small children are sadder today. Prolonged isolation for a young child is awful. Then go to the schools. Are you really going to cancel all of high school athletics? All of the YMCA swim teams? All basketball rec leagues? All little league baseball? All pee wee football? The ramifications of that are hideous.
 

Oscar Lindberg

Registered User
Dec 14, 2015
15,647
14,478
CA
I've never had a Facebook, and this was clearly an issue before the virus, but it's unbelievable how much false information gets spread on facebook and people just lap it up like it's true

Some of the stuff my family has told me about and are convinced is true is truly astounding.
 

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
If the herd immunity ideas go poorly everyone ends back up in a more restrictive lock-down. What does that do for public or consumer confidence? The lock down ideas will be countered by those who feel their liberty is being taken away. The ideological divide will just grow larger. (Which may be inevitable no matter what)
I do not think that they will lock it down a second time.

I feel like a lot of the people (not directing this at you ) who are of the ideology of waiting it out more and more, are also collecting paychecks while working from home. Once that changes, they will be the new loudest voices to restart and open up. How do you restart something when there is nothing left to restart?
 

eco's bones

Registered User
Jul 21, 2005
26,126
12,516
Elmira NY
In saying that, if there are age groups that are more than likely fine with recovering naturally they should be allowed back out in public right away. Say 18-40

....and if the 18 to 40 year olds are bringing it home to 60 and 70 year olds at the end of their workday? Probably more of an issue at the lower end of that age range than at the higher but even so.
 

Barnaby

Registered User
Jul 2, 2003
8,650
3,414
Port Jefferson, NY
I think that it goes further than that. You can and should take a measured approach. But ultimately, the economy is not going to get back to normal while social distancing is enforced. Much of it depends on quite the opposite. I mean, just look at the supermarkets. They cannot possibly continue for a good length of time if forced to operate with half capacity.

Then start to discuss the devastating effects on kids and children. There already was a report out about how small children are sadder today. Prolonged isolation for a young child is awful. Then go to the schools. Are you really going to cancel all of high school athletics? All of the YMCA swim teams? All basketball rec leagues? All little league baseball? All pee wee football? The ramifications of that are hideous.

I mostly agree. I think it’ll be a measured approach as well. This is a very large country. NY’s situation isn’t the same as New Mexico which isn’t the same as Las Vegas or Alaska. I could see certain regions opening more fully while others ease back in a lot slower.

I don’t think we’d see a 2nd shut down, but I’ll never say never. Maybe certain hot spots do close again or stay closed a lot longer than other places. I think this goes way beyond blanket statements of open or closed.

As for kids, I could see camps and athletics staying closed for a longer period of time. If I was 10 then I’d be upset that I couldn’t play but if you live in the tri-State area right now then it’s a different situation. I’m all for normalcy but I wouldn’t want my small child going to play tee ball and touching everything in sight just yet. Again, certain regions could see things opened up quicker and more fully. “Normal” will be awhile. Another example would be allowing people full access to nursing homes and senior centers - you could say seniors are suffering without families nearby/depression etc... but I doubt those doors will be fully opened for awhile as the risk is too great.
 

NYR Viper

Registered User
Sep 9, 2007
47,010
16,806
Jacksonville, FL
....and if the 18 to 40 year olds are bringing it home to 60 and 70 year olds at the end of their workday? Probably more of an issue at the lower end of that age range than at the higher but even so.

I mean I understand your point, but if we just let this thing paralyze us with fear about everything forever the economy will never open up again and we will see widespread poverty, hunger and more than likely suicide/crime.
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
9,755
5,585
I do not think that they will lock it down a second time.

I feel like a lot of the people (not directing this at you ) who are of the ideology of waiting it out more and more, are also collecting paychecks while working from home. Once that changes, they will be the new loudest voices to restart and open up. How do you restart something when there is nothing left to restart?

I agree it's a fine line, yet without consumer confidence... people who believe they will not get sick or sicken others by using a service how does the demand for that service ever recover enough for that service to remain profitable? Basically even if they do open everything back up, won't most of the services, like say cruises or leisure based air travel still not have enough demand to make it worth while to continue to provide such service? (unless of course they are constantly financial stabilized from the government or federal reserve in some fashion) Without the demand how can they generate enough revenue to stay in business whether they are fully open or not?

I mean I am sure some people will risk more than others, yet I think in some industries the risk without a "cure"(poor choice or word there, but for the lack of a better term) will always outweigh the reward at least to the point where profitability will be difficult, maybe impossible to obtain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fireonk

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
As for kids, I could see camps and athletics staying closed for a longer period of time. If I was 10 then I’d be upset that I couldn’t play but if you live in the tri-State area right now then it’s a different situation. I’m all for normalcy but I wouldn’t want my small child going to play tee ball and touching everything in sight just yet. Again, certain regions could see things opened up quicker and more fully. “Normal” will be awhile. Another example would be allowing people full access to nursing homes and senior centers - you could say seniors are suffering without families nearby/depression etc... but I doubt those doors will be fully opened for awhile as the risk is too great.
Now add on the fact that as they are closed, that also kills more jobs. Summer camps survive on fringes, like restaurants and bard. An entire season without them and you have just killed off an industry.

HS sports keeps kids off the streets. Do away with that and bad things happen. Mentally and physically. Not to mention that at that point, the layoffs start to happen to teachers. And what happens to the kids that had chances to get college scholarships? This is just another small faucet of where the cure becomes deadlier than the disease itself.
 

Fireonk

Registered User
Jan 10, 2006
1,920
2,510
What they praise him for now, they will curse him for later

I am on the side of some places should be looking to start a phased opening soonish, but when you are still getting 10k+ a day in New York even with the lockdown in place, I am not sure what choice you have. Not enough testing still and you have a city that will have everyone crammed back on subways. What choice is there? The alternative is a massacre and a complete overrunning of the healthcare system.

Which isn't to say people won't curse him later, but a lot of those curses will come from the mouths of people who wouldn't be breathing otherwise.
 

Off Sides

Registered User
Sep 8, 2008
9,755
5,585
Herd immunity may come in time but in no way, shape or form should it be forced. More people will die and you'll end up overwhelming the hospital system again. As is herd immunity might start to get her about the time a vaccine becomes available--or a year or longer from now.

I do not think it will be mandated by law, I believe they (they being more a systematic creation/reaction, not a person or group of people in particular) will just make the risk of unemployment greater than that of the risk of possibly contracting the virus, therefor the reward does not need to meet as high of a threshold.
 
Last edited:

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
I agree it's a fine line, yet without consumer confidence... people who believe they will not get sick or sicken others by using a service how does the demand for that service ever recover enough for that service to remain profitable? Basically even if they do open everything back up, won't most of the services, like say cruises or leisure based air travel still not have enough demand to make it worth while to continue to provide such service? (unless of course they are constantly financial stabilized from the government or federal reserve in some fashion) Without the demand how can they generate enough revenue to stay in business whether they are fully open or not?

I mean I am sure some people will risk more than others, yet I think in some industries the risk without a "cure"(poor choice or word there, but for the lack of a better term) will always outweigh the reward at least to the point where profitability will be difficult, maybe impossible to obtain.
Consumer confidence is bolstered by actually being able to go to work, not being actively prevented from going to work. When you have money in your hands, you can do with it as you will. Collecting an unemployment check is not the same thing as being employed. And those benefits eventually run out. And if you have managed to kill off entire industries, what is there for one to do?

Think of the industries which cannot survive with social distancing: Fitness, Food and Beverage, Day Care facilities, Movie theaters, Grocery stores (from the biggest to the smallest), ANY type of sporting activities (from pee wees all the way through pros). The amount of people is virtually incomprehensible. Driving the unemployment rate to over 35% is a staggering amount. 10 years of jobs growth was undone in just a month.

And then when Apple starts to lay off employees because their stores are not meant to operate on 50% capacity and the demand for their product in general is decimated, they then begin to lay off their corporate employees that have been isolating and working from home. And then those people who have been preaching that more patience is needed, are now the ones who scream that the economy needed to be opened sooner rather than later.

Some food for thought. By my office, the Whole Foods today was "temporarily" closed. I have no idea if that was due to someone testing positive and now they need to clean the entire place (best choice) or because as I said, they cannot possibly hope to run on 50% capacity. Think of what happens to the country if the food stores begin to shut down.

As I said, I think that we are basically at the point where the cure is worse than the disease. And the amount of unrest that is coming will be extremely loud. The same people who are inside collecting pay checks will be on the outside demanding the right to work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bl02

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
I am on the side of some places should be looking to start a phased opening soonish, but when you are still getting 10k+ a day in New York even with the lockdown in place, I am not sure what choice you have. Not enough testing still and you have a city that will have everyone crammed back on subways. What choice is there? The alternative is a massacre and a complete overrunning of the healthcare system.

Which isn't to say people won't curse him later, but a lot of those curses will come from the mouths of people who wouldn't be breathing otherwise.
I get it, but if NY is at a point that they are sending ventilators to other states, it makes one wonder.

Look, I get it. But just how you say "What choice is there?", so too do I state when it comes to needing to open up the economy. The alternative is Hoovervilles springing up.
 

True Blue

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
30,092
8,362
Visit site
Too long, I don't see it happening. People are about to go out again, they're not going to wait that long. I don't expect arenas to start filling or restaurants opening, but I can see most offices trying to reopen by May 1
I thought that they had to do it, but clearly Cuomo disagrees.

My view was always that things begin to open up somewhere between early to mid May. Let's hope that this May 15th thing is the mid-May. I am disappointed that he did not start to re-open by allowing at least some to go back to offices.

I think that is very easy to believe you have choices when you have the comfort of having a paycheck.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad