Coots: Sean Couturier

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I really love how Couturier has completely reinvented himself at the NHL level. I might have mentioned this already, but he's really become the most complete player on the team and to transition from an elite scorer in junior to a proficient/almost elite two-way center at the NHL is really something else.

The Flyers haven't had this sort of two-way presence since Primeau was here. They still need a scoring left winger to round out the line, but once they find that, it's quite possible that the Couturier line might just end up being the toughest line in hockey to play against. Gotta love that Carter trade more and more and more.....

 

[duffy9748]

I really love how Couturier has completely reinvented himself at the NHL level. I might have mentioned this already, but he's really become the most complete player on the team and to transition from an elite scorer in junior to a proficient/almost elite two-way center at the NHL is really something else.

The Flyers haven't had this sort of two-way presence since Primeau was here. They still need a scoring left winger to round out the line, but once they find that, it's quite possible that the Couturier line might just end up being the toughest line in hockey to play against. Gotta love that Carter trade more and more and more.....

Now is not the time, but if the Flyers are able to acquire a top line winger for Giroux, I'd like to put Voracek on a line with Couturier long term on the 2nd line. Something like:

Schenn-Giroux-Ryan
Simmonds-Couturier-Voracek

 

[usurp]

Now is not the time, but if the Flyers are able to acquire a top line winger for Giroux, I'd like to put Voracek on a line with Couturier long term on the 2nd line. Something like:

Schenn-Giroux-Ryan
Simmonds-Couturier-Voracek

does that mean we shuffle Hartnell down to the 3rd line?

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

does that mean we shuffle Hartnell down to the 3rd line?

...out the door preferably

 

[Prongo]

...out the door preferably

Still receiving the hate that is undeserved. Hartnell is a power forward who proves year in and year out why he is here. Not only will he give you 20 goals+50 points he provides leadership. Who do you replace those numbers with?

Scott Hartnell is on pace for 55 points this year which is border line first line winger material. He also plays a position where we have one natural top 6 winger there. We trade him away we lose our only natural left winger in the top 6. So we have to go out in free agency and over spend on his replacement when we can just keep him. That wouldn't make any sense. Even trading for a left winger wouldn't make sense when we are giving assets for a new player when we have an established guy right here.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Hartnell has really stepped up his game in the 2nd half of this season. Slow start but really kicking it up a notch. He's still a top 6 guy on this team. You can't just replace what he brings with anyone.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

Still receiving the hate that is undeserved. Hartnell is a power forward who proves year in and year out why he is here. Not only will he give you 20 goals+50 points he provides leadership. Who do you replace those numbers with?

Scott Hartnell is on pace for 55 points this year which is border line first line winger material. He also plays a position where we have one natural top 6 winger there. We trade him away we lose our only natural left winger in the top 6. So we have to go out in free agency and over spend on his replacement when we can just keep him. That wouldn't make any sense. Even trading for a left winger wouldn't make sense when we are giving assets for a new player when we have an established guy right here.

You're correct in that Scott Hartnell is the best option we have as a top LW, but I think the point being made is that he's not ideally suited for that role, especially in 1-3 more years. I think that Hartnell's production is very dependent on playing the power play and first line with Giroux/Voracek; 2 guys more known for play-making than scoring.

With a more natural goal scorer added to the team, Hartnell's numbers would certainly decrease alongside his value.

Basically, Hartnell makes the most of his opportunities, but his receiving those opportunities is more a reflection of our lack of good options at that position than his exceptional play.

 

[Prongo]

You're correct in that Scott Hartnell is the best option we have as a top LW, but I think the point being made is that he's not ideally suited for that role, especially in 1-3 more years. I think that Hartnell's production is very dependent on playing the power play and first line with Giroux/Voracek; 2 guys more known for play-making than scoring.

With a more natural goal scorer added to the team, Hartnell's numbers would certainly decrease alongside his value.

Basically, Hartnell makes the most of his opportunities, but his receiving those opportunities is more a reflection of our lack of good options at that position than his exceptional play.

Even when Hartnell was on a line with Schenn and Simmonds that line was producing pretty much every game. Hartnell is what he is and that is a top 6 LWer. Teams would be lining up for him if he was a free agent right now. He also provides a great forecheck and is a leader.

Isn't a good player supposed to make good out of his opportunities? That's pretty much what you ask for from any player isn't it?

Even if we get a solid top line winger Hartnell still contributes on the second line most likely. I would like to see Hartnell-Schenn-Simmer line again. Vinny has no spot on this team as I currently see it.

Everyone always discusses how a players offensive peak is around 24 yet Hartnell at 31 is still producing like he is in his prime. Will he continue to pace that way, most likely not. I see no signs of Hartnell slowing down next year though. He still is contributing at his usual pace. Once that decline starts and he doesn't rebound is when you worry but right now and in the future he looks like he will continue his pace.

Even Hartnell on the third line with Couts and Read would make an excellent third line. I still think he would produce close to what he does there IMO.


As fans we are constantly trying to run players out of here that provide consistent points throughout their time here. Hartnell and Coburn are both examples of this. They aren't world beaters but are extremely effective at what they do. The grass in not always greener...

Another point to be made is when we want that top flight LWer we will either have to over pay in free agency or over pay with assets to acquire one. I rather have Hartsy here then Vanek at 8 million on the top line. Hartnell gives us cap flexibility compared to the big named acquisition would do.

 

[Funf]

You're correct in that Scott Hartnell is the best option we have as a top LW, but I think the point being made is that he's not ideally suited for that role, especially in 1-3 more years. I think that Hartnell's production is very dependent on playing the power play and first line with Giroux/Voracek; 2 guys more known for play-making than scoring.

With a more natural goal scorer added to the team, Hartnell's numbers would certainly decrease alongside his value.

Basically, Hartnell makes the most of his opportunities, but his receiving those opportunities is more a reflection of our lack of good options at that position than his exceptional play.

Hartnell has always been a part of big lines. First it was with Lupul and Carter, then Briere and Leino. Now it's Giroux and Voracek. Sure, he might not be the top flight LW we want to see playing with Giroux, but it doesn't mean he's not a valuable player. The man has scored 20+ goals 6 different years, and is on his way to doing it a 7th time.

His defense is also underrated. He's certainly not elite by any means, but he's not as poor of a defensive player as a lot of people make him out to be.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Courtesy of Akanon

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Still receiving the hate that is undeserved.

Nope, not at all. This is a guy who has consistently showed up to training camp out of shape and not ready to play. This is a guy who consistently can't stay on his feet and falls when making routine plays. This is a guy who continually gets a free pass by the coaching staff and management whenever he screws up, but younger players who screw up get thrown under the bus. For a guy who's making nearly $5 million bucks a year, 20 goal/50 point expectations are incredibly low and embarassing.

I have no love for Hartnell at all, but it's certainly well deserved. I've watched a lot of Flyers teams from the 80s, 90s, 2000s and it's insulting that the term power forward is associated with Hartnell, especially when the team at one time had probably the best power forward in the game in Rick Tocchet.

 

[phlflyer1]

To me, he's the absolute crystal clear second best player on the team at this stage. It's unbelievable how noticeable he is over the last couple of months at both ends of the ice.

+1

I've always favored keeping Couts over BSchenn if it came down to dealing one of those two but at this point I think he and G are the two truely untradeable players on this team.

Not that I'd want to trade any of the other young guns such as Voracek, Simmonds or BSchenn but I'd at least listen if someone wanted to make me an offer.

G and Couts are non starters when it comes to trade talks in my book.

 

[Embiid]

I was still expecting Mats Sundin production from the Bearded one by now......TRADE HIM!

 

[Prongo]

Nope, not at all. This is a guy who has consistently showed up to training camp out of shape and not ready to play. This is a guy who consistently can't stay on his feet and falls when making routine plays. This is a guy who continually gets a free pass by the coaching staff and management whenever he screws up, but younger players who screw up get thrown under the bus. For a guy who's making nearly $5 million bucks a year, 20 goal/50 point expectations are incredibly low and embarassing.

I have no love for Hartnell at all, but it's certainly well deserved. I've watched a lot of Flyers teams from the 80s, 90s, 2000s and it's insulting that the term power forward is associated with Hartnell, especially when the team at one time had probably the best power forward in the game in Rick Tocchet.

This is absolutely one of the worst remarks you have made here. 50-60 points is top line material or at worst 2nd line material. Go look at almost every teams top 6 lineups and see what those players are getting paid. I love how people actually use the "Hartnell down" as a serious argument when discussing his skills. He does fall often, but he isn't a bad skater whatsoever. He has good speed actually and plays hard every night even when he is slumping. As mentioned before he is actually pretty reliable defensively as well. He knows where to be on the ice when play is near him or away. He is good without the puck in his zone in the defensive zone.

Every player screws up and Hartnell is no exception. I have seen this so many times before about this dumb "accountability" ********. Accountability from a coach and between fans are entirely different. They don't care about points, they care about how the player is playing in every aspect of the game. How hard is he practicing to beat his slump, is he watching tape, how is he improving. Is he helping team mates out? Hartnell has also been known as a vocal in the locker room and great team mate. You might not agree with it but it's been pretty well known.

The out of shape thing was when he was going throught the divorce wasn't it? He had a terrible year and it's no excuse but I won't just say it's nothing. These things can get to players, it's not always easy to block out the real world when you go to work. He is in pretty decent shape right now being 4th on our team in points. 6 points behind Jake with 4 games less played.

The last part about the power forward is the NH: has greatly changed from the days of Toc. Yes, they don't come that way anymore so I think you might have to lower your expectations of that a power forward is in the NHL today.

The hate is mostly unwarranted. Just like people were getting on Giroux early in the season, we need to be patient when players slump because it's going to happen.

 

[Embiid]

Gotta love that Carter trade more and more and more.....

That one was great but the Richards one wasn't too shabby although I'm liking Coots over Schenn but getting Simmonds and a pick made it tilt in our favor. I still like B Schenn and would like to keep him unless he can be used in a package for a higher impact player. No 1 for 1 JVR "sell low" JVR deal though.....

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

You're correct in that Scott Hartnell is the best option we have as a top LW, but I think the point being made is that he's not ideally suited for that role, especially in 1-3 more years. I think that Hartnell's production is very dependent on playing the power play and first line with Giroux/Voracek; 2 guys more known for play-making than scoring.

With a more natural goal scorer added to the team, Hartnell's numbers would certainly decrease alongside his value.

Basically, Hartnell makes the most of his opportunities, but his receiving those opportunities is more a reflection of our lack of good options at that position than his exceptional play.

So you're saying if we replace Hartnell with a better player, Hartnell wouldn't play as well?

 

[Curufinwe]

Nope, not at all. This is a guy who has consistently showed up to training camp out of shape and not ready to play. This is a guy who consistently can't stay on his feet and falls when making routine plays. This is a guy who continually gets a free pass by the coaching staff and management whenever he screws up, but younger players who screw up get thrown under the bus. For a guy who's making nearly $5 million bucks a year, 20 goal/50 point expectations are incredibly low and embarassing.

Hartnell is making the money a 20/50 guy should get. I'll list some players with comparable cap hits who who are scoring less per game than Hartnell this season.

Leino
Gagner
Clowe
Clarkson
Weiss
Havlat
Erat
Fleischmann
Kesler
Laich
Plekanec
Cole
Gionta
Malone
Hornqvist
Burrows
Umberger
Booth
Eriksson
Purcell
Marchand
Lecavalier
Callahan
Jokinen
Whitney
Michalek

 

[Broad Street Elite]

So you're saying if we replace Hartnell with a better player, Hartnell wouldn't play as well?

I'm saying that Hartnell takes advantage of an opportunity that wouldn't exist if we had a better players to fill the role he currently plays. Basically, if you add someone that is a top line scorer... let's say Vanek simply for the sake of argument, even though that isn't happening.

If Vanek came in and took Hartnell's spot as the 1LW and displaced him from his existing slot role on the first PP unit, Hartnell's numbers would likely drop below the level where you feel like his production matches cost, so it might make sense to move him.

I'm not advocating giving Hartnell away just for the sake of doing it, but if the opportunity arose to add a LW sniper to Giroux's line and we need to make the salary cap work, Hartnell would more than likely be the one to move, rather than sliding him down to a 3rd line role. 2nd PP unit. I feel the same way about LeCavalier at this stage too except that LeCavalier can still make his own offense to a degree.

 

[Cmoneyflyguy]

Courtesy of Akanon

 

[JDinkalage Morgoone]

I'm saying that Hartnell takes advantage of an opportunity that wouldn't exist if we had a better players to fill the role he currently plays. Basically, if you add someone that is a top line scorer... let's say Vanek simply for the sake of argument, even though that isn't happening.

If Vanek came in and took Hartnell's spot as the 1LW and displaced him from his existing slot role on the first PP unit, Hartnell's numbers would likely drop below the level where you feel like his production matches cost, so it might make sense to move him.

I'm not advocating giving Hartnell away just for the sake of doing it, but if the opportunity arose to add a LW sniper to Giroux's line and we need to make the salary cap work, Hartnell would more than likely be the one to move, rather than sliding him down to a 3rd line role. 2nd PP unit. I feel the same way about LeCavalier at this stage too except that LeCavalier can still make his own offense to a degree.

Fair, but realistically how many more goals do you see Vanek (read: top line winger in FA) scoring than Hartnell, and for how much more money? Is it worth it?

 

[Broad Street Elite]

Fair, but realistically how many more goals do you see Vanek (read: top line winger in FA) scoring than Hartnell, and for how much more money? Is it worth it?

With Giroux? 40 or so.

As to the second part, it's tricky to calculate. We've had great success at finding the mid-range values forwards (Raffl, Read, Talbot... perhaps Leier, Cousins, Straka, etc). Would we thereforce be better getting 1 prolific scoring winger to play with Giroux and combining it with a diamond that we keep finding or signing 2-3 midrange guys like Hartnell and LeCavalier? The former seems to be the mechanism that a team like Chicago employees, because they have tremendous ability to continually find 2nd, 3rd and 4th line replacement talent to utilize.

 

[SAINDON]

Courtesy of Akanon

The best part is the stare down he gives Towes after he drops him.

 

[Doors]

I hope that Coots and his beard will be Flyers for many years to come. Coots and G are my favorite players in the team. He's only 21, imagine how good he will be in 4-5 years!

 

[Jtown]

I hope that Coots and his beard will be Flyers for many years to come. Coots and G are my favorite players in the team. He's only 21, imagine how good he will be in 4-5 years!

he took a huge step forward this year. I knew right away it was going to be a good year when i saw how much faster he looked in the preseason game against toronto.

If he takes one more leap , he is going to be a stud. If he never improves right now he is a 50 point selke candidate. That is among the best 2c in the game. If he can be a force on the powerplay watchout.

I hope the flyers try to extend him this year to a 8 year 36-40 mill deal. Lock him up at a low aav while he is young because I think he is going to be worth a lot more later.

 

[jeff leonard]

+1

I've always favored keeping Couts over BSchenn if it came down to dealing one of those two but at this point I think he and G are the two truely untradeable players on this team.

Not that I'd want to trade any of the other young guns such as Voracek, Simmonds or BSchenn but I'd at least listen if someone wanted to make me an offer.

G and Couts are non starters when it comes to trade talks in my book.

What about Matt Read? Don't mean to derail thread but when I look at him, I don't trade him for anything but a HUGE overpayment. Like sometimes I'll forget about him but then I see him do something cool, remember his contract, then realize he's on pace for over 20 goals this season and think "This is exactly the kind of player you want on a cup contender"