Cooperstown 2017 (Selig, Scherholz, Pudge, Bagwell, Raines elected to HoF)

Fish on The Sand

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Feb 28, 2002
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Schillings votes dropped apparently, sad that just because of his politicsl opinions he might not get in to the hof. Should be strictly to do with baseball, i guess its ok for ped users to be allowed in but not someone who has political opinions which are apparently the majority

Even ignoring that blatant falsehood, Schilling's HOF case is fairly mediocre. There are also other reasons to explain his drop other than his political positions (which didn't help admittedly). The deep ballot and the limit of 10 names per ballot definitely caused him to lose votes.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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Even ignoring that blatant falsehood, Schilling's HOF case is fairly mediocre. There are also other reasons to explain his drop other than his political positions (which didn't help admittedly). The deep ballot and the limit of 10 names per ballot definitely caused him to lose votes.

Schilling was an 80.7 WAR pitcher for his career

To put that in perspective, Glavine's WAR is 74 and John Smoltz's WAR is 66.5
 
Oct 18, 2011
44,094
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Because Bonds is arguably the second best player of all time, Clemens arguably the GOAT pitcher.





It would be really stupid to believe a juicers own word. Yea he played with a lot of the guys he named but then again maybe, just maybe, he was trying to sell his book?

In he end the steroid-era commissioner was inducted so the players should not be penalized for suspected use.

Time has shown Canseco to be credible
 

SladeWilson23

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By the definition of borderline, Schilling is just that. He does have a very strong case, but he's far from a lock. Personally, I put him in.
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
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in jeff bagwell's arguable peak he went for .302/.439/.578 while playing half his home games in the ****ing astrodome. he's absolutely one of the best first basemen ever and shouldn't have had to wait.

rodriguez was a bit of a surprise much like smoltz was to me. he kind of hung around for a while, his last like five seasons were utter ****, but he was a really good offensive catcher with a cannon for an arm. he didn't deserve the mvp he won but whatever.

honestly, what else can be said for raines? one of the best basestealers ever, got on base a lot...he's basically a slightly dented rickey henderson. there's not a knock on raines either.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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There is an argument to be made that Bonds and Clemens were BHOF anyways if you take out the PED-enhanced part of their career.

I'd have no issue with the PEDs guys being kept out forever, due to the doubt about whether or not their performance was actually legit, but Bonds AND Clemens were both totally legit BHOF by 1996 or so.
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
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here's the thing: i don't mind keeping out guys who actually failed tests like palmeiro and even manny.

the problem lies with this: when all of bonds, clemens, mcgwire, sosa, etc. were playing and allegedly using...mlb did exactly jack **** to stop them, preferring to make money and try to build the game.
 

Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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people forget that there are PED users who are already in the HOF

bothers me that pudge gets in right away while all these other guys who were far better either had to wait a while because of suspicion or aren't in at all
 

Big Poppa Puck

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Dec 8, 2009
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This was a good article

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article127329219.html

But a clear message is being sent: the taint of performance-enhancing drug use is fading. The world is changing. Logic, reason, and realism are gaining ground.

Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, and Ivan Rodriguez were announced as the 2017 Hall of Fame class on Wednesday. Each has been connected with drug use in some way — Bagwell and Rodriguez with various degrees of PED suspicion, and Raines with his admission of cocaine use —

...

In a perfect world, this will help sports to finally have an honest conversation about PED use that goes beyond boogeyman arguments.

Maybe that’s too much to hope for, but we’re going to find out relatively soon, because Bonds and Clemens are highly likely to be inducted in the next two or three years.

When Bonds and Clemens are inducted, the Hall of Fame will be better off. Bonds won seven MVPs, and Clemens seven Cy Young Awards. No other man has won either award as often.

Assuming they used PEDs, they would presumably join others already inducted who used the various pharmaceutical shortcuts of their time, most prominently greenies. As Buck O’Neil famously said, “the only reason players in my time didn’t use steroids is because we didn’t have them.”

But even if you disagree with everything in this column so far, here is an undeniable truth: Bud Selig was baseball’s commissioner through the rise and peak of steroid use, and he was just put in by a 15-member veterans committee.

The case that any PED user should be barred from the Hall is very difficult to make when the man who oversaw the whole thing is immortalized in bronze.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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people forget that there are PED users who are already in the HOF

bothers me that pudge gets in right away while all these other guys who were far better either had to wait a while because of suspicion or aren't in at all

Pudge was a very unique catcher... but there's a disconnect with Piazza waiting so long and Pudge being a 1st ballot guy.
 

SladeWilson23

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here's the thing: i don't mind keeping out guys who actually failed tests like palmeiro and even manny.

the problem lies with this: when all of bonds, clemens, mcgwire, sosa, etc. were playing and allegedly using...mlb did exactly jack **** to stop them, preferring to make money and try to build the game.

What about A-Rod? Never tested positive officially, but he did get suspended.
 

Fish on The Sand

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Feb 28, 2002
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So Curt Schilling got in a twitter fight with a twitter troll pretending to be Sidney Ponson and then went into full denial. Not denial over the fight. Denial that it was a fake twitter account.



C2fm3LvW8AQdLd-.jpg


I'm torn on whether or not he's hall of fame worthy (he certainly wouldn't be the worst pitcher in there) but stuff like this isn't going to help his case, as hilarious as it is.
 

Voight

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Feb 8, 2012
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Schilling was an 80.7 WAR pitcher for his career

To put that in perspective, Glavine's WAR is 74 and John Smoltz's WAR is 66.5

Four top five Cy Young finishes (remarkable three second place finishes) while competing against Randy Johnson, Clemens, Pedro etc for the award.

& Thats before we get to the playoffs.

here's the thing: i don't mind keeping out guys who actually failed tests like palmeiro and even manny.

the problem lies with this: when all of bonds, clemens, mcgwire, sosa, etc. were playing and allegedly using...mlb did exactly jack **** to stop them, preferring to make money and try to build the game.

& the man in charge during that time is being inducted this year, the guy who did absolutely NOTHING to stop or prevent any sue of PED's. Not during the 90s when people were putting up stupid high numbers. Or the early 2000's when the same as occurring. Selig is just as guilty as anyone else.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Even ignoring that blatant falsehood, Schilling's HOF case is fairly mediocre. There are also other reasons to explain his drop other than his political positions (which didn't help admittedly). The deep ballot and the limit of 10 names per ballot definitely caused him to lose votes.

What on earth?

Schilling has an 80 WAR regular-season career combined with an absolutely massive post-season resume - 11-2, 2.23 ERA, 3 World Series wins, WS MVP, NLCS MVP.

Guy should be a dead lock and has easily a better career than Smoltz, who got in on the first ballot. But Smoltz was a really nice guy and Schilling is a complete ass, so here we are.

___________

Voting is just a complete mess.

You have a 28 WAR closer in Hoffman who is going to get in over 80 WAR starters in Schilling and Mussina.

You have some guys who are assumed to have taken steroids but aren't in because they were TOO GOOD and an example is being made of them. You have other guys who are assumed to have taken steroids (like Pudge) who get in instantly.

It really does appear that guys who 'seem like nice guys' get forgiven and have the suspicions ignored but guys who seem like cocky jerks get punished. It's basically a popularity contest at this point.
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
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yeah curt schilling is the leader this century in bb/k ratio which is insane because he was a power pitcher for all intents and purposes and still only walked 5.4% of the hitters he faced in his career.
 

Pwnasaurus

Registered User
Feb 21, 2003
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What on earth?

Schilling has an 80 WAR regular-season career combined with an absolutely massive post-season resume - 11-2, 2.23 ERA, 3 World Series wins, WS MVP, NLCS MVP.

Guy should be a dead lock and has easily a better career than Smoltz, who got in on the first ballot. But Smoltz was a really nice guy and Schilling is a complete ass, so here we are.

___________

Voting is just a complete mess.

You have a 28 WAR closer in Hoffman who is going to get in over 80 WAR starters in Schilling and Mussina.

You have some guys who are assumed to have taken steroids but aren't in because they were TOO GOOD and an example is being made of them. You have other guys who are assumed to have taken steroids (like Pudge) who get in instantly.

It really does appear that guys who 'seem like nice guys' get forgiven and have the suspicions ignored but guys who seem like cocky jerks get punished. It's basically a popularity contest at this point.

This is a good post that sums up everything quite nicely.
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
24,059
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with hoffman probably getting in next year there's going to be a lot of relief pitchers getting in.

krod, papelbon, joe nathan, probably kimbrel and chapman too.
 

SladeWilson23

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with hoffman probably getting in next year there's going to be a lot of relief pitchers getting in.

krod, papelbon, joe nathan, probably kimbrel and chapman too.

To be fair to Hoffman here, those guys don't have the longevity Hoffman had. And I know saves is a dumb stat, but they still count, and the BBWAA still puts a lot of stock into them.
 

darko

Registered User
Feb 16, 2009
70,269
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What on earth?

Schilling has an 80 WAR regular-season career combined with an absolutely massive post-season resume - 11-2, 2.23 ERA, 3 World Series wins, WS MVP, NLCS MVP.

Guy should be a dead lock and has easily a better career than Smoltz, who got in on the first ballot. But Smoltz was a really nice guy and Schilling is a complete ass, so here we are.

___________

Voting is just a complete mess.

You have a 28 WAR closer in Hoffman who is going to get in over 80 WAR starters in Schilling and Mussina.

You have some guys who are assumed to have taken steroids but aren't in because they were TOO GOOD and an example is being made of them. You have other guys who are assumed to have taken steroids (like Pudge) who get in instantly.

It really does appear that guys who 'seem like nice guys' get forgiven and have the suspicions ignored but guys who seem like cocky jerks get punished. It's basically a popularity contest at this point.


Was kinda undecided with Schilling but posts like this are swaying me towards yes. Great post.

He's still a **** person lol.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
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Schilling is 15th all-time in strikeouts

Everybody ahead of him on the list with the exception of Clemens is in the Hall of Fame
 

IU Hawks fan

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Dec 30, 2008
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Schilling will get in, but they'll wait til one of his last eligible years. Assuming he's smart enough to keep his mouth shut.
 

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