Controversial Entertainment Opinions/Discussion Thread - Part II

[aleshemsky83]

I said it before when the topic of spoilers come up.

Here's something even more controversial than "spoilers don't matter":

Spoilers only sometimes matter.

I'm Mr. CONTROVERSIAL

I see people too often screaming spoilers over very minor reveals, there's no question spoiler culture has gotten out of control, but I would only reel it back 25-30 percent.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Here is a thing about spoilers... If the episode aired 3 days ago, you can't get upset if you read spoilers on social media

 

[Shareefruck]

That's hyperbolic and exaggerating what actually goes on from my experience. I think if someone spouts off a major "twist" or "event" from a show/movie that literally just came out in a place where people aren't expecting it, then people are going to get annoyed if they haven't gotten to experience it, yet. And no I don't think the realities of human schedules make it their fault for having been spoiled.


Define this feeling of indignation, because our definitions of the term may vary a great deal.

I feel you have a greater feeling of indignation because people don't want to have things spoiled for them in certain cases. Personally I don't understand where it comes from.

Admittedly, I think it's more of a thing with millennials and internet culture than absolutely everyone, but I can't believe so many people think I'm exaggerating or don't think the phenomenon exists. I've definitely noticed that many seem to think there are social rules about spoiler etiquette and what you are and aren't allowed to say after such and such period of time or this and that setting, and that if somebody breaks that taboo, they're inconsiderate instigators who now owe them an apology or something. Isn't that what indignation means? Crying foul over something done to them?

That last sentence isn't true. Admittedly, though, I'm definitely biased because I have less sympathy that otherwise could put me on their side because I don't relate to the "caring about being spoiled" thing myself, and as a result, I have more sympathy for/experience being the person who doesn't want to get bogged down in spoiler etiquette. That's mostly where this is coming from. Ultimately, I just think it should be viewed as an out of the way favor rather than expected basic human decency.

 

[Shareefruck]

Another controversial opinion-- I don't really get the Kendrick Lamar thing. The praise he gets always intrigues me and sounds like the type of thing I would appreciate, so I keep trying it every year and give it the benefit of the doubt, but I generally really dislike the way it sounds and can't get past that. The first thing is, rappers like Kendrick and Kanye seem to always have this vocal style where their voice lilts at the end of every phrase (with this sort of ... "nnyyeeeeeehhh" sound), and I find it really offputting and annoying. The second thing is how often he breaks out into melodic ditties that sound kind of cringey to me. And third, I always find the R&B influences and guests verses by people like Rihanna, Drake, and U2 to be lame and hurt the product.

I'm actually somewhat starting to get Death Grips, but Kendrick Lamar is still a mystery to me.

 

[Trap Jesus]

^ I agree about Kendrick. It's just a vocal thing for me, mainly when he alters his voice; off-putting and annoying are the two words I'd use as well. Just isn't sonically pleasing to me. Makes a lot of his songs hit or miss to me, and I find most of the songs I enjoy are due to production.

 

[Aladyyn]

As much credit as they get for their influence, Venom is still a ridiculously underappreciated band outside of the hardcore metal circles. In regards to both influence and quality.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Another controversial opinion-- I don't really get the Kendrick Lamar thing. The praise he gets always intrigues me and sounds like the type of thing I would appreciate, so I keep trying it every year and give it the benefit of the doubt, but I generally really dislike the way it sounds and can't get past that. The first thing is, rappers like Kendrick and Kanye seem to always have this vocal style where their voice lilts at the end of every phrase (with this sort of ... "nnyyeeeeeehhh" sound), and I find it really offputting and annoying. The second thing is how often he breaks out into melodic ditties that sound kind of cringey to me. And third, I always find the R&B influences and guests verses by people like Rihanna, Drake, and U2 to be lame and hurt the product.

I'm actually somewhat starting to get Death Grips, but Kendrick Lamar is still a mystery to me.

I think Section 80 and GKMC are great works but have felt the last two as just alright. Apparently Untitled is good but I haven't given it a shot. Songs like A.D.H.D. and Money Trees are fantastic though. Love them.

 

[The Nuge]

Another controversial opinion-- I don't really get the Kendrick Lamar thing. The praise he gets always intrigues me and sounds like the type of thing I would appreciate, so I keep trying it every year and give it the benefit of the doubt, but I generally really dislike the way it sounds and can't get past that. The first thing is, rappers like Kendrick and Kanye seem to always have this vocal style where their voice lilts at the end of every phrase (with this sort of ... "nnyyeeeeeehhh" sound), and I find it really offputting and annoying. The second thing is how often he breaks out into melodic ditties that sound kind of cringey to me. And third, I always find the R&B influences and guests verses by people like Rihanna, Drake, and U2 to be lame and hurt the product.

I'm actually somewhat starting to get Death Grips, but Kendrick Lamar is still a mystery to me.

I tend to agree, but it's just modern rap (if you can call it that) in general for me. R&B is a much better classification for a lot of "rappers". Rappers used to have flow and a decent singing ability. Now you just speak slowly over a subwoofer

 

[Shareefruck]

I tend to agree, but it's just modern rap (if you can call it that) in general for me. R&B is a much better classification for a lot of "rappers". Rappers used to have flow and a decent singing ability. Now you just speak slowly over a subwoofer

I agree, it's just modern rap in general, but I guess my expectation was incorrectly sort "Most of modern rap sucks in this really commercialized way, granted, but Kendrick Lamar is the exception who avoids the pitfalls and brings tasteful authenticity and minimalism back to the genre. But it turns out alot of the things I dislike about the bad ones also seem to apply to the good ones.

I actually prefer when rappers stay away from melody altogether, and just focus on rhythm and flow. A sing-song-y rapper just feels gross to me, regardless of whether he's competent at it or not.

Might be an ignorant generalization, but it feels like hip hop in general is most effective when it's funk-driven rather than R&B-driven.

I think Section 80 and GKMC are great works but have felt the last two as just alright. Apparently Untitled is good but I haven't given it a shot. Songs like A.D.H.D. and Money Trees are fantastic though. Love them.

I'm sure there's alot of depth/poignance to it thematically/narratively once you get into it, but honestly, I've been unable to get past the surface because it doesn't sound even superficially enjoyable to my ears.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I agree, it's just modern rap in general, but I guess my expectation was incorrectly sort "Most of modern rap sucks in this really commercialized way, granted, but Kendrick Lamar is the exception who avoids the pitfalls and brings tasteful authenticity and minimalism back to the genre. But it turns out alot of the things I dislike about the bad ones also seem to apply to the good ones.

I actually prefer when rappers stay away from melody altogether, and just focus on rhythm and flow. A sing-song-y rapper just feels gross to me, regardless of whether he's competent at it or not.

Might be an ignorant generalization, but it feels like hip hop in general is most effective when it's funk-driven rather than R&B-driven.
I'm sure there's alot of depth/poignance to it thematically/narratively once you get into it, but honestly, I've been unable to get past the surface because it doesn't sound even superficially enjoyable to my ears.

Yeah, he's one guy I can point towards when we spoke about abstract lyrics in contrast to storytelling lyrics. GKMC is a good example of very well-done storytelling through lyrics IMO.

 

[Ouroboros]

As much credit as they get for their influence, Venom is still a ridiculously underappreciated band outside of the hardcore metal circles. In regards to both influence and quality.

Disagree. Vehemently.

First of all - what reason would there be for widespread appreciation of their music? They would have had no impact outside of the sphere of metal, and even within that area their influence is sort of questionable.

It seems their primary impact was in image and presentation. Musically there was nothing new here - it's basically a pastiche of Motörhead and some early punk, with a lot of 'hard rock' DNA. It's not particularly interesting or good, and they were quickly rendered obsolete by bands such as Hellhammer, Slayer, and Possessed who took their template and filtered out a lot of the distasteful elements (jocularity/irony/light-heartedness, anthemic "rock music" flourishes, sloppy and boring compositions) and improved upon it.

It would be ahistorical for me to claim that they weren't important at all, so I won't say that - but not everyhting that is influential is necessarily worthwhile in its own right. Venom are much like Kiss in that sense.

This is the best thing Venom ever put their name to:

 

[Aladyyn]

Disagree. Vehemently.

First of all - what reason would there be for widespread appreciation of their music? They would have had no impact outside of the sphere of metal, and even within that area their influence is sort of questionable.

It seems their primary impact was in image and presentation. Musically there was nothing new here - it's basically a pastiche of Motörhead and some early punk, with a lot of 'hard rock' DNA. It's not particularly interesting or good, and they were quickly rendered obsolete by bands such as Hellhammer, Slayer, and Possessed who took their template and filtered out a lot of the distasteful elements (jocularity/irony/light-heartedness, anthemic "rock music" flourishes, sloppy and boring compositions) and improved upon it.

It would be ahistorical for me to claim that they weren't important at all, so I won't say that - but not everyhting that is influential is necessarily worthwhile in its own right. Venom are much like Kiss in that sense.

This is the best thing Venom ever put their name to:

I know, that's the point. Early Venom is absolutely worthwhile imo, that's the controversial part of my opinion

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I always felt NIN's version of Hurt to be better than Johnny Cash's. I might be completely wrong on this but I often get the feeling that timing of Cash's version has kind of over hyped it. It's certainly very good, but I like the original a hell of a lot better. I find it a beautiful, almost windy-like song with the dissonant guitar sounds. Just gorgeous, especially in the beginning.

Also, while I like The Smiths - especially the guitar work by Johnny Marr - and that his voice sometimes works to great effect (on Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now, for example) I always thought Morrissey had a whiny, diva-ish voice that's incredibly annoying. It's almost like it fits his looks and personality (he has a ****-eating face and grin) perfectly.

 

[Shareefruck]

My controversial opinion would actually be that the song "Hurt" is not very good to begin with. It sort of has the same lyrically whiney sad sack obnoxiousness to it that something like "Creep" by Radiohead does, and those types of emotionally cloying, misery-stroking songs tend to badly annoy me. Cash's version feels a little less whiney and more down to earth, but he can only do so much with the material.

Something more in line with yours, though-- I think Ringo's version of "With a Little Help From My Friends is far superior to the Joe Cocker one, and it bothers me that the latter cover seems to be viewed as this brilliant moment where an average song is transformed into a brilliant song/performance. Cocker's vocal delivery is melodramatic to a comical degree. I hate the way certain vocalists use this really forced dramatic/exaggerated/hammy wrenching voice and try to pass it off as disintinguished and tortured. He lays it on way too thick.

Another one similar to that, but less extreme-- while I love both versions, Dylan's version of All Along the Watchtower is superior to Jimi Hendrix' version. With the former, the words actually cut you and feel legitimately potent/powerful, whereas the latter just feels like a solid bit of guitar-heroism to my ears.

Liked this breakdown:

 

[Spring in Fialta]

My controversial opinion would actually be that the song "Hurt" is not very good to begin with. It sort of has the same lyrically whiney sad sack obnoxiousness to it that something like "Creep" by Radiohead does, and those types of emotionally cloying, misery-stroking songs tend to badly annoy me. Cash's version feels a little less whiney and more down to earth, but he can only do so much with it.

Something more in line with yours, though-- I think Ringo's version of "With a Little Help From My Friends is far superior to the Joe Cocker one, and it bothers me that the latter cover seems to be viewed as this brilliant moment where an average song is transformed into a brilliant song/performance. Cocker's vocal delivery is melodramatic to a comical degree. I hate the way certain vocalists use this really forced dramatic/exaggerated/hammy wrenching voice and try to pass it off as disintinguished and tortured.

Another one similar to that, but less extreme-- while I love both versions, Dylan's version of All Along the Watchtower is superior to Jimi Hendrix' version. With the former, the words actually cut you and feel legitimately potent/powerful, whereas the latter just feels like a solid bit of guitar-heroism to my ears.

I absolutely hate Creep specifically because it sounds hopelessly cheesy and self-pitying to a comical agree (why don't you like meeee, I'm a loooooser) but I never got that vibe from Hurt. It always felt honest and a bit under-stated to me as he sings it (besides the You can have it all in which he screams) and I love the instrumental. I don't particularly mind depressive lyrics as long as they're well-written. People do feel sad/depressed/melancholic and I don't see the issue with putting these feelings into song. The problem is that it often comes across as cringy and lame but there's nothing wrong with these feelings as lyrical themes. It's just about the execution.

Also would have rather seen Philip Roth win the Nobel. He deserved it over Dylan I feel in both consistency and peak.

 

[CycloneLaunch]

I tend to agree, but it's just modern rap (if you can call it that) in general for me. R&B is a much better classification for a lot of "rappers". Rappers used to have flow and a decent singing ability. Now you just speak slowly over a subwoofer

Full disclosure I'm generally a fan of the sing-songy type rap people are trashing here

But did rappers ever really have a decent singing ability though ? I feel like auto tune is responsible for the glut of rappers singing during parts of their songs these days but I don't really feel like it was any better in the past. Who are you referring to ? Bone thugz are really the only group from the 90s that are immediately springing to mind. And as much as I love their music I wouldn't call the 2000s NY rappers (50 cent, Dipset, Max B) who popularised that style great singers either.

 

[Shareefruck]

I absolutely hate Creep specifically because it sounds hopelessly cheesy and self-pitying to a comical agree (why don't you like meeee, I'm a loooooser) but I never got that vibe from Hurt. It always felt honest and a bit under-stated to me as he sings it (besides the You can have it all in which he screams) and I love the instrumental. I don't particularly mind depressive lyrics as long as they're well-written. People do feel sad/depressed/melancholic and I don't see the issue with putting these feelings into song. The problem is that it often comes across as cringy and lame but there's nothing wrong with these feelings as lyrical themes. It's just about the execution.

Also would have rather seen Philip Roth win the Nobel. He deserved it over Dylan I feel in both consistency and peak.

I agree, but this wasn't one of the cases where I liked the execution.

I mean....

I hurt myself today
To see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
The only thing that's real
The needle tears a hole
The old familiar sting
Try to kill it all away
But I remember everything
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know goes away
In the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
I wear this crown of thorns
Upon my liar's chair
Full of broken thoughts
I cannot repair
Beneath the stains of time
The feelings disappear
You are someone else
I am still right here
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know goes away
In the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
If I could start again
A million miles away
I would keep myself
I would find a way

Seems pretty corny, cringey, and lame to me.

Oh, I wasn't intending to side with the Nobel prize thing. The video doesn't even really have anything to do with it-- he just took an event and used it as an excuse to gush about a song.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I always felt NIN's version of Hurt to be better than Johnny Cash's. I might be completely wrong on this but I often get the feeling that timing of Cash's version has kind of over hyped it. It's certainly very good, but I like the original a hell of a lot better. I find it a beautiful, almost windy-like song with the dissonant guitar sounds. Just gorgeous, especially in the beginning.

Also, while I like The Smiths - especially the guitar work by Johnny Marr - and that his voice sometimes works to great effect (on Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now, for example) I always thought Morrissey had a whiny, diva-ish voice that's incredibly annoying. It's almost like it fits his looks and personality (he has a ****-eating face and grin) perfectly.

Sounds like you're missing the point of Morrisey/The Smiths or maybe their music just isn't for you. Everything you don't like about it is essentially the embodiment of an entire group of people. It was the early 80's. Morrisey sang to young people everywhere that felt like they'd never fit in and had a rough/anti-social upbringing.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Sounds like you're missing the point of Morrisey/The Smiths or maybe their music just isn't for you. Everything you don't like about it is essentially the embodiment of an entire group of people. It was the early 80's. Morrisey sang to young people everywhere that felt like they'd never fit in and had a rough/anti-social upbringing.

How am I missing the point when my gripe was with his actual voice and not the themes?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I agree, but this wasn't one of the cases where I liked the execution.

I mean....



Seems pretty corny, cringey, and lame to me.

Oh, I wasn't intending to side with the Nobel prize thing. The video doesn't even really have anything to do with it-- he just took an event and used it as an excuse to gush about a song.

It's not phenomenal or anything but I found them all right besides the occasional line ( You can have it all and a couple of others but I'm on mobile so I can't be as precise as I want, will add later).

 

[Shareefruck]

Aside from the general sad-sack whine-iness, I also find the 5th grade use of metaphors (or whatever you would call them) very cringe-y as well-- "I wear this crown of thorns", "Upon my liar's chair", "My empire of dirt", "Beneath the stains of time".... makes me shudder every time.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Aside from the general sad-sack whine-iness, I also find the 5th grade use of metaphors (or whatever you would call them) very cringe-y as well-- "I wear this crown of thorns", "Upon my liar's chair", "My empire of dirt", "Beneath the stains of time".... makes me shudder every time.

Eh, I don't mind it, reads and sounds fine to me, whether on paper, in the song and the concept of the album. But the more rewarding thing about the song to me were the instrumentals anyway so I don't really care to go to bat for the lyrics.

 

[Xelebes]

I hate the way certain vocalists use this really forced dramatic/exaggerated/hammy wrenching voice and try to pass it off as disintinguished and tortured. He lays it on way too thick.

It comes largely from gospel singing. A very important piece of American musical development alongside minstrelsy and blues.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Due to a recent conversation, I feel the need to come up with this one. Now it might not be controversial here, but I feel the need to say it: I hate it and disagree with it when someone says '' Don't go into movies/music/theater/literature if you do it for fame and attention, those aren't the right reasons! ''. I've always found this line of thought to be incredibly shallow and an arrogant way of thinking. While I personally don't subscribe to it - I think genuine love and interest for what you do will/should help you make better/more honest work - but it's far from a prerequisite. For one, the chances that every good artists started their art for the '' right '' reasons is minimal. Also, who cares what someone's motivation is if the art works? Doing it for attention or fame is an absolutely valid if the talent you own delivers the good.

 

[Shareefruck]

I'm not aware that many people actually think/suggest that (other than when making the "You have to really love it to be able to tolerate the failures, so don't do it if you're just after the money" type point). I mean, I definitely think there's reason to be skeptical of people who do it for the money, and for that to be stigmatized, but only because that usually correlates with an uninteresting result.