Constructing Vancouver's Defence

[RandV]

Look around the league at the teams with successful bluelines. You can rarely trade for top-four d-men because everybody is in the market for them and it's going to cost you prime picks/prospects. You can hope to sign one as a UFA, but chances are they're just at the start of their career decline, and you're going to dramatically overpay.

So basically you have to draft and develop them. And other than Hughes, Benning hasn't drafted or developed a single one. And until he does, having talents like Petterson, Horvat or Boeser up-front, isn't going to make a world of difference when it comes to making the playoffs, or doing anything once you get there.

That's not really true. Maybe if you need one right now, but enough players shift around that if you expand your search window by a year or two you should be able to get someone. The fundamental problem here is Benning has had 6 years, and basically his attempts have been Sbisa, Gudbranson, Juolevi, and now Myers. This isn't a 'well what can you do?' situation, it's a fundamental failure. Given the time Benning has had and the assets he's spent on the above mentioned players some results should have been delivered by now.

 

[Hit the post]

That's not really true. Maybe if you need one right now, but enough players shift around that if you expand your search window by a year or two you should be able to get someone. The fundamental problem here is Benning has had 6 years, and basically his attempts have been Sbisa, Gudbranson, Juolevi, and now Myers. This isn't a 'well what can you do?' situation, it's a fundamental failure. Given the time Benning has had and the assets he's spent on the above mentioned players some results should have been delivered by now.

Honest question, outside of maybe Myers & for sure Hughes, was Benning the NHLer a *FAR* better D than any of those schmucks?

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Where do people get the idea that Tryamkin could be a good top-4 d-man in the NHL (assuming he even came back)? I'm not being snarky here, I'm just genuinely mystified what this is based on.

I mean yeah he was named KHL defenseman of the month twice but so was Montreal washout Darren Dietz (who?). And yeah Tryamkin was serviceable in his 16-17 minutes a game while here but nothing to rave about. I don't get it.

 

[zcaptain]

Where do people get the idea that Tryamkin could be a good top-4 d-man in the NHL (assuming he even came back)? I'm not being snarky here, I'm just genuinely mystified what this is based on.

I mean yeah he was named KHL defenseman of the month twice but so was Montreal washout Darren Dietz (who?). And yeah Tryamkin was serviceable in his 16-17 minutes a game while here but nothing to rave about. I don't get it.

That is a good question, but to flip it around

What makes you absolutely sure he will not?

Personally, I am waiting to see how this all turns out

before making any real predictions...……..

Like many say...…..he may not even come

So...….I will give him the benefit of the doubt

but the proof is in the pudding

 

[Hit the post]

Where do people get the idea that Tryamkin could be a good top-4 d-man in the NHL (assuming he even came back)? I'm not being snarky here, I'm just genuinely mystified what this is based on.

I mean yeah he was named KHL defenseman of the month twice but so was Montreal washout Darren Dietz (who?). And yeah Tryamkin was serviceable in his 16-17 minutes a game while here but nothing to rave about. I don't get it.

For a rookie, I thought he performed quite well when given that context.

 

[vanuck]

That is a good question, but to flip it around

What makes you absolutely sure he will not?

Personally, I am waiting to see how this all turns out

before making any real predictions...……..

Like many say...…..he may not even come

So...….I will give him the benefit of the doubt

but the proof is in the pudding

Based on how most prospects don't end up working out, it's generally better to wait for them to show top-4 upside before re-evaluating your opinion of a player. It's a numbers game.

 

[F A N]

That's not really true. Maybe if you need one right now, but enough players shift around that if you expand your search window by a year or two you should be able to get someone. The fundamental problem here is Benning has had 6 years, and basically his attempts have been Sbisa, Gudbranson, Juolevi, and now Myers. This isn't a 'well what can you do?' situation, it's a fundamental failure. Given the time Benning has had and the assets he's spent on the above mentioned players some results should have been delivered by now.

Why aren't you including Hughes and Stecher into the mix?

 

[RandV]

Why aren't you including Hughes and Stecher into the mix?

Oh yes, I was looking at failures (though Myers is a bit early here) and focusing on large acquisition costs via trade, signing, or top pick. If you want to be complete Benning's list is in order is Sbisa, Gudbranson, Juolevi, Hughes, and Myers. Stecher would fall into the low cost acquisition group which would include Clendening, Pedan, Brisebois, Bartkowski, Woo, Benn, etc.

But hey we're half way there with Hughes, 3-4 more top 10 picks and he may finally be able to replace Edler and Tanev.

 

[Hit the post]

But hey we're half way there with Hughes, 3-4 more top 10 picks and he may finally be able to replace Edler and Tanev.

Dave Nonis didn't need a 1st round pick higher than 10th overall the rebuild half the top 4.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Dave Nonis didn't need a 1st round pick higher than 10th overall the rebuild half the top 4.

Other than Hughes, Edler is the only legit first pairing d-man the Canucks have drafted...14 years ago.

Tanev is a top 4 d...Maybe Tryamkin could be a second pairing d-man as well?

 

[VanJack]

Where do people get the idea that Tryamkin could be a good top-4 d-man in the NHL (assuming he even came back)? I'm not being snarky here, I'm just genuinely mystified what this is based on.

I mean yeah he was named KHL defenseman of the month twice but so was Montreal washout Darren Dietz (who?). And yeah Tryamkin was serviceable in his 16-17 minutes a game while here but nothing to rave about. I don't get it.

I think fans are basing their optimism on the limited viewing from his one season here. During that season, you got a sneak peak of how effective the big Russian can be on the smaller ice.

Firstly he's a one-man shutdown machine on the offensive cycle. Once the puck is in his feet along the wall, he's impossible to move or strip the puck from.....he stops the cycle in its tracks. Look at the current Canuck blueline. The puck still goes into their zone and is cycled endlessly by the opposition, because they can't win a puck battle or exit the zone...and they cough up scoring chance after scoring chance.

Then there's the reach. With his 6'8" wingspan, Tryamkin can poke check the puck before the carrier even reaches the blueline. He was a force in terms of forcing offside plays during his one season here, and stripping the puck from wingers along the boards..

Then there's his net-front presence. Do you have any idea how hard it is to gain body position or get your stick free when you're jockeying for position with a guy who's that big and strong?

I realize the offense for Tryamkin was slow in coming....and hasn't been all-world in the KHL either. But again in limited viewing, the guy does have a rocket launcher for a shot. It's like Chara or Byfuglien....when you have that much weight behind the puck it just gets blasted on net. The other thing I remember about Trymakin, is that he has a sneaky hard wrister from the point, which he gets away quick. And it rarely gets blocked, creating havoc around the net.

So for all these reasons, Tryamkin at the very least would be a huge upgrade in the 5-6 hole.....but has the potential to move into your top four imo.

 

[F A N]

Dave Nonis didn't need a 1st round pick higher than 10th overall the rebuild half the top 4.

Nonis' best acquisition on D was probably signing Rory Fitzpatrick. Not every day you sign an all-star Dman for cheap.

 

[mathonwy]

Dave Nonis didn't need a 1st round pick higher than 10th overall the rebuild half the top 4.

Dave Nonis is now part of the good old days.

Weird to think that.

I feel abused.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

Dave Nonis didn't need a 1st round pick higher than 10th overall the rebuild half the top 4.

Nonis was a terrible GM who got lucky because Keenan was irrationally enamoured with Bertuzzi.

That said, I think what you allude to is important, in that you don't need top 10 picks to get top 4 defensemen in this league. In fact you'd have to go pretty far back to find any 1st round pick defenseman who panned out for this organization (Ohlund and not much else until you go way back into the early 80s). Plenty of busts (Juolevi, Allen, Ference, Herter etc). In fact we've done better drafting in the 5th round (Aucoin, Bieksa and Sopel in r6) and not too bad in signing undrafted FAs (Tanev, Stetcher).

Benning's inability to shore up our defense really hasn't been due to scouting (IMO the Canucks are as good as ever in that department) but rather inability to find it cheap via the trade route. He's traded for a few defensemen and none have worked out.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

I think Tryamkin has a good shot at being a middle-pairing guy.

Our defense in that last year for Willie D was pretty abysmal and he looked relatively good, especially when you consider that WD was arguably f***ing with the kid's head wanting him to goon it up (and Tryamkin himself coming over unprepared).

If he's matured, that blend of size, and mobility is a really rare package and if he can be intelligently coached to play within his limits and to his strengths we could have a tougher Jassen Cullimore type (or a more mobile Hal Gill) which is a valuable piece.

 

[F A N]

Dave Nonis is now part of the good old days.

Weird to think that.

I feel abused.

Nuts are considered overrated these days.

 

[Hit the post]

Nonis was a terrible GM who got lucky because Keenan was irrationally enamoured with Bertuzzi.

That said, I think what you allude to is important, in that you don't need top 10 picks to get top 4 defensemen in this league. In fact you'd have to go pretty far back to find any 1st round pick defenseman who panned out for this organization (Ohlund and not much else until you go way back into the early 80s). Plenty of busts (Juolevi, Allen, Ference, Herter etc). In fact we've done better drafting in the 5th round (Aucoin, Bieksa and Sopel in r6) and not too bad in signing undrafted FAs (Tanev, Stetcher).

Benning's inability to shore up our defense really hasn't been due to scouting (IMO the Canucks are as good as ever in that department) but rather inability to find it cheap via the trade route. He's traded for a few defensemen and none have worked out.

I wouldn't call Allen a bust. Certainly disapointing given his draft position but a reliable #4D guy with a bit of grit at his peak. Right side D if I recall. Not a home run pick obviously but more like a solid single (700+ NHL games in his career). He's actually the guy Benning dreamed of when he traded for Guds.

 

[F A N]

I wouldn't call Allen a bust. Certainly disapointing given his draft position but a reliable #4D guy with a bit of grit at his peak. Right side D if I recall. Not a home run pick obviously but more like a solid single (700+ NHL games in his career). He's actually the guy Benning dreamed of when he traded for Guds.

I agree. I was a big fan of Bryan Allen. Injuries kind of took a toll on his career though. But in terms of the draft he was the consensus #4 pick and if you look at the top 10 that year he was drafted right where he should have been. He was a bit of a disappointment though since he we expected him to quickly establish himself as a top 4 Dman here.

 

[RobertKron]

I agree. I was a big fan of Bryan Allen. Injuries kind of took a toll on his career though. But in terms of the draft he was the consensus #4 pick and if you look at the top 10 that year he was drafted right where he should have been. He was a bit of a disappointment though since he we expected him to quickly establish himself as a top 4 Dman here.

IIRC, Allen very nearly made the Canucks straight out of the draft, and then blew up his ?knee? and never really recovered from missing most of his D+1 and 2 seasons. Also, the game changing so drastically probably didn't help things for him.

 

[zcaptain]

Based on how most prospects don't end up working out, it's generally better to wait for them to show top-4 upside before re-evaluating your opinion of a player. It's a numbers game.

Do you even read what you are posting about...….I think I said that very thing

 

[Canucks1096]

Rafferty
Juolevi
Rathbone
Tryamkin ( if he comes back )
Woo
Brisebois

Do we have any future top 4 D in this group? Realistically half of them probably won't make it to the nhl ( min 200 games)

 

[vanuck]

Do you even read what you are posting about...….I think I said that very thing

Yes I did...

To clarify, I meant that because so many prospects don't pan out or reach their projected upside, you're better off being skeptical until they show you that they're worthy of consideration to actually hit that ceiling.

 

[hcg]

I wouldn't call Allen a bust. Certainly disapointing given his draft position but a reliable #4D guy with a bit of grit at his peak. Right side D if I recall. Not a home run pick obviously but more like a solid single (700+ NHL games in his career). He's actually the guy Benning dreamed of when he traded for Guds.

If Juolevi became another Allen it would be tremendous for this team.

 

[F A N]

IIRC, Allen very nearly made the Canucks straight out of the draft, and then blew up his ?knee? and never really recovered from missing most of his D+1 and 2 seasons. Also, the game changing so drastically probably didn't help things for him.

Ya you recalled correctly. One of those things that seem to frequently happen to highly touted Canucks prospects. Crawford didn't seem to trust him. But to be fair, Allen came in at the beginning of the WCE era. The Canucks D was pretty good with Jovo + Lachance/Malik and Ohlund with Sopel. Murray Baron was also there for a few years.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I hate the idea of moving Adam Gaudette, but if the Canucks could move Gaudette for a young promising defenseman ("The Adam Gaudette of defensemen,"), then that's a deal you'd have to strongly consider. The Canucks will be set down the middle for a few years (with Sutter backing up Bo and Petey), and then you could take a calculated risk that Tyler Madden could replace Sutter when Sutter's contract expires.

The guy I had in mind was Bode Wilde (i.e. Isles seem to be stacked with D, but they might not have too many prospect centers..........although I might be wrong here........I haven't checked the Isles' prospect pool).

Tryamkin definitely looks like he'll return and so that's a plus, but the Canucks still need to pimp up their prospect pool on defense.