Speculation: Confidence of the NHL staying in Arizona?

[WrinkledPossum]

Yea, you just keep telling yourself that.

When has there been any report that says the finances are getting worse?

Yep. "Flip This Team." It's what everyone was suspecting of Andy Barroway when he came into the ownership group.

The difference between how they have worked with Glendale and how they have to this point worked with Tucson could not be more stark. But I also think that if they were going to sell the team they wouldn't be bothering with investing in front-office infrastructure, given that a new owner would want his own assets in place. So at this point I have no idea what their real endgame is.

Barroway also just bought a 8(?) million dollar mansion in the valley with help from Wendy Tippett. They've put a lot into this team and this market. This ownership groups goal is clearly to stay in the Phoenix area. Only way the team moves in the next 10 years is if they are unable to get a deal done for a new arena or extend the lease in Glendale. And like I said before I don't see them leaving in the next 5, if they aren't able to get something done within the next year I bet they go downtown and continue negottiatiing. The NHL isn't gonna give up and relocate the team anytime soon after keeping it here for many ownerless years.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Barroway also just bought a 8(?) million dollar mansion in the valley with help from Wendy Tippett.

That's about as solid an indicator about the future as the folks in Quebec City using FlightAware to see if Peter Karmanos' plane went from Raleigh to Quebec.

The NHL isn't gonna give up and relocate the team anytime soon after keeping it here for many ownerless years.

If the right circumstances come up, you bet your patootie they will relocate the team. I understand fan passion but I have less patience for fan naivete. The NHL is not our friend.

 

[rt]

Rich people like to buy fancy houses in warm weather.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Rich people like to buy homes they feel they can make a profit on later.
Our owners are good to work with if you want to become richer, but until I see otherwise I have reason to believe that the current owners don't have what it takes to make the Coyotes successful long-term.

 

[Jakey53]

That's about as solid an indicator about the future as the folks in Quebec City using FlightAware to see if Peter Karmanos' plane went from Raleigh to Quebec.



If the right circumstances come up, you bet your patootie they will relocate the team. I understand fan passion but I have less patience for fan naivete. The NHL is not our friend.

The NHL is our friend. If not, this team would have been long gone. This team is not moving.

 

[XX]

The NHL isn't gonna give up and relocate the team anytime soon after keeping it here for many ownerless years.

I can tell that you weren't really paying attention during the 'ownerless' years, because the only reason the team is here (and this is fact) is that Glendale ponied up successive gobs of money to keep them here. They were Winnipeg bound the moment the NHL had to hold the bag. The NHL is a business and they've demonstrated at every turn that they refuse to subsidize the team themselves. If IA can't get an arena deal in the next few weeks to a year, the team is gone.

The Coyotes also can't simply 'go downtown' with the Suns still in control and calling the shots. It would also seem that the tribes are not really interested in what IA has to offer.

Concern is warranted.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

That's about as solid an indicator about the future as the folks in Quebec City using FlightAware to see if Peter Karmanos' plane went from Raleigh to Quebec.

Uh, buying a home is a lot bigger deal than taking flight... If they weren't committed to having it makes no sense to put so much money into this market. They aren't gonna give it up without a fight.

I can tell that you weren't really paying attention during the 'ownerless' years, because the only reason the team is here (and this is fact) is that Glendale ponied up successive gobs of money to keep them here. They were Winnipeg bound the moment the NHL had to hold the bag. The NHL is a business and they've demonstrated at every turn that they refuse to subsidize the team themselves. If IA can't get an arena deal in the next few weeks to a year, the team is gone.

The Coyotes also can't simply 'go downtown' with the Suns still in control and calling the shots. It would also seem that the tribes are not really interested in what IA has to offer.

Concern is warranted.

The NHL could've moved the Coyotes many times. There were many opportunities to do so, starting with Hamilton. The NHL obviously wants the NHL to work here. Look at all the effort they've put into keeping the team here, Atlanta didn't receive anywhere close to the same treatment. The NHL has a lot longer leash with the Coyotes than they do other teams.

What could the Suns do to prevent the Coyotes from playing a few seasons at Talking Stick Arena?? The city owns it, and has shown a lot of interest in the Coyotes...

Also, just a pet peeve of mine, it's incredibly annoying when people say Glendale has thrown tons of subsidies to the Coyotes but ignore that the Jets receive something like 12.5 million a year.

 

[XX]

The NHL could've moved the Coyotes many times. There were many opportunities to do so, starting with Hamilton. The NHL obviously wants the NHL to work here. Look at all the effort they've put into keeping the team here, Atlanta didn't receive anywhere close to the same treatment. The NHL has a lot longer leash with the Coyotes than they do other teams.

They weren't going to let Balsille backdoor a team to a market without their permission. It didn't matter if the Coyotes were in Cairo at that point. That legal fight was about way more than hockey in Arizona. Atlanta didn't receive the same treatment because the only game in town in terms of an arena actively wanted them gone. Does that sound familiar to you?

You realize that it has been verified that, had the council not granted the NHL's demands for cash payments two years in a row, the team would be in Winnipeg right now, right? That's not a leash. It's a gun to the head of a city. The NHL's loyalty to the market extends no further than the balance sheet. If they have to hold the bag for any real amount of time, they'll just shuffle the team off to another market.

What could the Suns do to prevent the Coyotes from playing a few seasons at Talking Stick Arena?? The city owns it, and has shown a lot of interest in the Coyotes...

The Suns control the building and literally every card on the table. The city of Phoenix would have to learn how to print money to cure every problem with a joint Suns-Coyotes arena and keep everyone happy.

Also, just a pet peeve of mine, it's incredibly annoying when people say Glendale has thrown tons of subsidies to the Coyotes but ignore that the Jets receive something like 12.5 million a year.

Who gives a ****? The Coyotes need a subsidy to survive in Arizona. The Jets are owned by a bonafide billionaire, the Coyotes are not. In very real terms, the Coyotes are in danger, while the Jets are one of the more secure teams in the league.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The NHL is our friend. If not, this team would have been long gone. This team is not moving.

It WAS long gone on at least two separate occasions - the NHL had them boxed up and ready to go - before a couple of last-minute saves. If you want to trust the NHL, go ahead. Not for me.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

They weren't going to let Balsille backdoor a team to a market without their permission. It didn't matter if the Coyotes were in Cairo at that point. That legal fight was about way more than hockey in Arizona. Atlanta didn't receive the same treatment because the only game in town in terms of an arena actively wanted them gone. Does that sound familiar to you?

You realize that it has been verified that, had the council not granted the NHL's demands for cash payments two years in a row, the team would be in Winnipeg right now, right? That's not a leash. It's a gun to the head of a city. The NHL's loyalty to the market extends no further than the balance sheet. If they have to hold the bag for any real amount of time, they'll just shuffle the team off to another market.

It would've been a lot less of a headache for the NHL to just move on from the city. Quebec or Winnipeg easily would've took the team since this saga started. The NHL easily could've said no to Balsille and then turned to Winnipeg for a buyer. They owned the team for 5 years, that is special treatment. That is a 'real amount of time' They put a ton of effort into many failed deals. If they didn't give special treatment to the Coyotes the team would've been gone after the first failed bid to stay.

And with Atlanta I don't ever remember hearing about arena issues. The issue was a dysfunctional ownership group. There were also rumors that there were interested groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Atlanta. So no, it is not similar to the Coyotes.

Who gives a ****? The Coyotes need a subsidy to survive in Arizona. The Jets are owned by a bonafide billionaire, the Coyotes are not. In very real terms, the Coyotes are in danger, while the Jets are one of the more secure teams in the league.

Point is both teams receive a subsidy, and subsidies are very common for pro sports teams. And the Jets do need that subsidy, just like the Coyotes they're a budget team. And without it they'd be in the red.

It's weird how talking to you is like talking to someone from Quebec or anywhere else in Canada....

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

It would've been a lot less of a headache for the NHL to just move on from the city. Quebec or Winnipeg easily would've took the team since this saga started. The NHL easily could've said no to Balsille and then turned to Winnipeg for a buyer. They owned the team for 5 years, that is special treatment. That is a 'real amount of time' They put a ton of effort into many failed deals. If they didn't give special treatment to the Coyotes the team would've been gone after the first failed bid to stay.

And with Atlanta I don't ever remember hearing about arena issues. The issue was a dysfunctional ownership group. There were also rumors that there were interested groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Atlanta. So no, it is not similar to the Coyotes.




Point is both teams receive a subsidy, and subsidies are very common for pro sports teams. And the Jets do need that subsidy, just like the Coyotes they're a budget team. And without it they'd be in the red.

It's weird how talking to you is like talking to someone from Quebec or anywhere else in Canada....

This is all incorrect and I'm not going to answer this as you continue to repeat the same stuff that has been debunked over and over and over.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It would've been a lot less of a headache for the NHL to just move on from the city. Quebec or Winnipeg easily would've took the team since this saga started. The NHL easily could've said no to Balsille and then turned to Winnipeg for a buyer. They owned the team for 5 years, that is special treatment. That is a 'real amount of time' They put a ton of effort into many failed deals. If they didn't give special treatment to the Coyotes the team would've been gone after the first failed bid to stay.

The Coyotes were, in fact, within a matter of hours of being turned over to True North Sports & Entertainment to move to Winnipeg. TNSE was the first ownership group interested in the Coyotes that was properly vetted by the BoG who wasn't a house of cards (see: Jamison, Hulsizer, etc.). IceArizona's last-minute expression of interest literally kept the team in Arizona at the 11th hour, and even then it might not have happened had Atlanta's situation not forced the NHL's hand.

And with Atlanta I don't ever remember hearing about arena issues. The issue was a dysfunctional ownership group. There were also rumors that there were interested groups willing to buy the team and keep them in Atlanta. So no, it is not similar to the Coyotes.

The ownership issues WERE the arena issues - basically, the basketball team owners didn't want to own a hockey team or have one play in their barn. The "interested groups" trying to step up to buy the team didn't have the proper backing, but they also didn't have an alternate plan for where the team could play. There were simply no other remedies.

It's weird how talking to you is like talking to someone from Quebec or anywhere else in Canada....

And what's wrong with that? Quebec and Canada are full of very nice people and only a vocal minority are really instigators.

 

[XX]

It's weird how talking to you is like talking to someone from Quebec or anywhere else in Canada....

I'll take that as a compliment, seeing as how those fans tend to be more informed on matters de Coyotes than most posters here. You're free to imply that I started posting here fourteen years ago with the intent of taking the team away if you want. Like a lot of things you post, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, but it's yours I suppose.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I'll take that as a compliment, seeing as how those fans tend to be more informed on matters de Coyotes than most posters here. You're free to imply that I started posting here fourteen years ago with the intent of taking the team away if you want. Like a lot of things you post, it doesn't make the slightest bit of sense, but it's yours I suppose.

Nah I was meaning the negativity and arrogance.

And they're more informed? According to them the Yotes should in their third season as the Nordiques......

 

[The Feckless Puck]

And they're more informed? According to them the Yotes should in their third season as the Nordiques......

It's not that they're more informed, it's that they don't have any emotional skin in the game (unless we're talking about the relocationistas). We here in AZ are saddled with a lot of emotional and subjective baggage after seven years of BS, and our default setting is defensive.

It's hard to be objective but it is necessary to be so to get the whole story.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

It's not that they're more informed, it's that they don't have any emotional skin in the game (unless we're talking about the relocationistas). We here in AZ are saddled with a lot of emotional and subjective baggage after seven years of BS, and our default setting is defensive.

It's hard to be objective but it is necessary to be so to get the whole story.

The majority that take an interest in the Coyotes do so because they do have a bias. Whether it's Coyotes fans wanting the team to stay, or it's someone wanting them to move. Either because they want it in their city or just hate southern teams in general. There is a large group that feel that way... There are very few who do follow the Coyotes saga on a purely neutral, educational basis.

So really there are just two sides that act like they know what is going on. And the Anti-Coyotes side is a lot less informed. Which makes sense when they get their news from outlets that benefit off of relocation click bait stories.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

So really there are just two sides that act like they know what is going on. And the Anti-Coyotes side is a lot less informed. Which makes sense when they get their news from outlets that benefit off of relocation click bait stories.

I know you're just generalizing here but the bolded is really not supportable. The anti-Coyotes side is certainly more biased in one direction, but it also tends to dig a lot deeper into the story than Coyotes fans are willing to do. The blunt truth is that a lot of Coyotes fans - and I include myself in this - are afraid to dig too far past the party line because we are scared of what we might find. Following the PR spin certainly allows for a much more comfortable frame of mind.

The reason I personally elect to dig deeper initially started off as safeguarding my investment in my season tickets. I consider it due diligence. Other people call it negativity and condemn me for it, which is their prerogative. But there is enough to the underlying story to have extremely healthy skepticism of IA's motives and uncertainty over the long-term endgame for this team in Arizona.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

I know you're just generalizing here but the bolded is really not supportable. The anti-Coyotes side is certainly more biased in one direction, but it also tends to dig a lot deeper into the story than Coyotes fans are willing to do. The blunt truth is that a lot of Coyotes fans - and I include myself in this - are afraid to dig too far past the party line because we are scared of what we might find. Following the PR spin certainly allows for a much more comfortable frame of mind.

The reason I personally elect to dig deeper initially started off as safeguarding my investment in my season tickets. I consider it due diligence. Other people call it negativity and condemn me for it, which is their prerogative. But there is enough to the underlying story to have extremely healthy skepticism of IA's motives and uncertainty over the long-term endgame for this team in Arizona.

From my experience the ant-Coyotes side doesn't dig deeper. They grasp at anything that doesn't goes the Coyotes way and take it to mean the team is failing or moving. Or exaggerate something that is negative for the team.

Like the subsidies I brought I up before. The anti-Coyote people I've encountered go and whine about how Glendale gave them an outrageous lease but ignore that the Jets receive a larger subsidy than the Coyotes did. It's really funny when Jets fans who wanted the Yotes back complain about that..... And t's actually quite surprising how many Jets fans still obsess over the Coyotes and want them to move. There is one rather large Jets forum that regularly posts pictures of poor AZ crowds. Jumps on any negative story and exaggerates it.

Also I think it was you who brought the plane watching, that to me also shows how uninformed a lot of the anti-Coyotes people are. I think that comes more from the QC side, which is by far the worst. The French media is really, really bad...

I do agree with you with having skepticism over the long term future of the team. The arena situation does make it very iffy. But I do really believe they will be in the Valley for the next 5 years. After that I lean to them being here, but can't be sure.

And with IA's motives I don't really understand that. They easily could've moved the team after Glendale kicked them out. And they've put a lot of money into this market. I think it's clear they do want it to work out here.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

And with IA's motives I don't really understand that. They easily could've moved the team after Glendale kicked them out. And they've put a lot of money into this market. I think it's clear they do want it to work out here.

The smoking gun for IA's motives is the Glendale audit. Up until that was released I thought it was just Glendale being their normal idiotic podunk-city-politico selves. But there's no disputing what was released, and I think it's very telling that part of the renegotiation of the lease included the prohibition of releasing the rest of the details.

Now, in fairness, IceArizona's conduct with Tucson is, so far, a complete 180 from their relationship with Glendale. I still haven't sussed out why. Is it because they are more invested in the AHL team? That's one theory. Another theory is Gary Drummond's increased involvement. For me, he's the true X factor with IA.

The results of the expansion decision will go a long way towards predicting the Coyotes' situation. If they expand by two teams then the Coyotes will likely be here for at least 5 years, because Seattle won't be ready and there aren't any other "soft-landing" spots currently known. So we should know fairly soon.

 

[Jakey53]

From my experience the ant-Coyotes side doesn't dig deeper. They grasp at anything that doesn't goes the Coyotes way and take it to mean the team is failing or moving. Or exaggerate something that is negative for the team.

Like the subsidies I brought I up before. The anti-Coyote people I've encountered go and whine about how Glendale gave them an outrageous lease but ignore that the Jets receive a larger subsidy than the Coyotes did. It's really funny when Jets fans who wanted the Yotes back complain about that..... And t's actually quite surprising how many Jets fans still obsess over the Coyotes and want them to move. There is one rather large Jets forum that regularly posts pictures of poor AZ crowds. Jumps on any negative story and exaggerates it.

Also I think it was you who brought the plane watching, that to me also shows how uninformed a lot of the anti-Coyotes people are. I think that comes more from the QC side, which is by far the worst. The French media is really, really bad...

I do agree with you with having skepticism over the long term future of the team. The arena situation does make it very iffy. But I do really believe they will be in the Valley for the next 5 years. After that I lean to them being here, but can't be sure.

And with IA's motives I don't really understand that. They easily could've moved the team after Glendale kicked them out. And they've put a lot of money into this market. I think it's clear they do want it to work out here.

You hit the nail on the head. I have mostly stopped replying to the negative posts because it is just a waste of time. The team is here now and will be for many years. The NHL needs to grow the game in non traditional areas. I think you will see expansion over seas in the next ten years.

 

[lanky]

The results of the expansion decision will go a long way towards predicting the Coyotes' situation. If they expand by two teams then the Coyotes will likely be here for at least 5 years, because Seattle won't be ready and there aren't any other "soft-landing" spots currently known. So we should know fairly soon.

i don't think there's any decision to be made. The Quebec group won't pay $500 million USD with the exchange rate being where it is. LV and only LV.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

i don't think there's any decision to be made. The Quebec group won't pay $500 million USD with the exchange rate being where it is. LV and only LV.

I actually don't think that's a factor. I have heard that QC is still trying to find minority investors to help shoulder the expansion fee, but all the tea leaves I've seen point to some issue or issues beyond the simple financial ones. In particular, Jeremy Jacobs of Boston appears adamantly against QC getting a team back and he carries a lot of weight on the board.

My belief is that part of the delay in announcing expansion is because the BoG didn't expect QC to actually WANT to pay $500M in fees, and seeing that they stepped up they have had to rethink their strategy.

 

[AZviaNJ]

You hit the nail on the head. I have mostly stopped replying to the negative posts because it is just a waste of time. The team is here now and will be for many years. The NHL needs to grow the game in non traditional areas. I think you will see expansion over seas in the next ten years.

Add me to this list too. The OP starts negative threads/polls and seems to care little about hockey in Arizona. Bottom line is we do have an NHL team and owners who are committed to keeping the team here.

Maybe we can focus on the draft, free agency and steps necessary to become a playoff team.

 

[Jakey53]

Add me to this list too. The OP starts negative threads/polls and seems to care little about hockey in Arizona. Bottom line is we do have an NHL team and owners who are committed to keeping the team here.

Maybe we can focus on the draft, free agency and steps necessary to become a playoff team.

Yes, let's focus on the positives, as they out weigh the negatives by a country mile. Can't wait for the draft.

 

[MNNumbers]

Outside observer with a positive perspective for AZ fans.....

It seems the preponderance of leaks suggest that the announcement will be for expansion to Vegas only. That's great news for Yotes fans, for sure in the short term, for 2 reasons:

First, it eliminates the only convenient relocation destination in the west. That means the Yotes can't go anywhere soon.

Second, the expansion fee is basically a 16.6M check for IA. That should be enough to cover some losses for a year or two.

Conclusion: They aren't going anywhere this summer, and the ownership now has at least another full year to get an arena deal with someone other than Glendale.

Cheers.