Complaining about refs...

[Slats432]

As an aside, I was playing a nothing rec hockey game last night. One of our players calmly said "Hey stripes - can you explain that last call" Ref started to explain what he saw, had to skate away to follow the play, but even afterwards came back and finished the explanation. Impressed by both the player and and the ref who would take the time to explain the call at 11:15 pm on a Wednesday night.

Every player/coach/parent if they go into all situations like this would get the same in return and there wouldn't be a ref shortage.

 

[adsfan]

I think the dynamic you describe above, which exists at the professional and high-level amateur levels, is part of why we have so many coaches yelling at refs at lower levels.

Some coaches truly are screamers, nutcases, but most high level coaches know exactly what they're doing when they get in a ref's ear. I'll use baseball and basketball coaches as the example because they have much more of a role with the referee than hockey coaches do. The first couple of times a coach barks, it's like a warning shot to say "you better start evening up these calls". If that doesn't work, they start getting demonstrative (baseball manager comes out of the dugout, basketball coach gets in the ref's ear on the sideline). All of a sudden, you've got thousands and thousands of people who aren't just booing, they're standing up and screaming at the ref. You've got a whole team full of players giving him the stink eye. As a human being, that's a lot of pressure to apply to your decision making.

So when that next close call comes up, as a human being the ref's natural instinct is to find a way to calm things down and relieve the hostile pressure. That's not corruption, it's just human nature. If he still doesn't cooperate, and makes yet another call in favor of the opponent, it's fairly standard procedure for the coach to go ballistic and deliberately get himself kicked out as a way of activating the full wrath of both the players and crowd. At that point you've got the attention of the media as well, and the ref's at risk of becoming a name the team and crowd will remember in future games. He either eases up, or he becomes the Tim Peel of that league.

Those are all normal dynamics at the elite level, and pro refs and coaches are trained to handle those scenarios.

The problem is that lower-level coaches (and players) see that stuff on television and incorporate it into their idea of how to interact with refs. But at an amateur level none of these dynamics exist. There's no paying crowd of thousands, it's just a couple dozen parents. There's no pool of refs to be shuffled around, it's the same kid week after week. So there's no point in working him like that, you're just terrorizing the guy without any payoff. But just like the beer leaguer who plays an "agitator" role, some coaches genuinely fail to understand that things which are standard in a pro environment are inappropriate in a lower-level amateur environment.

At every level it's normal for people to get upset and argue a call, but at low levels that's where it ends. Both the refs and the players have to be tolerant of each other's amateur status, otherwise it's just not gonna work out for either of them in that environment.

The riot happened before the head coach was thrown out. Curt Fraser grabbed 5 or 6 sticks and threw them out on the ice in the general direction of the ref, nearly hitting Randy Velischek in the head on the bench when he swung them over the boards. By that time, there must have been 50 objects on the ice.

(I checked, it must have been during the 1993-94 season, Fraser's last with the team. They won 40 games and lost in Round 1 of the playoffs. The year before it was 49 wins and out in Round 1. The fans had signs that said "Dump Fraser not the puck!". I think the team was swept both years. They had no extra gear or prepration or new wrinkles for the playoffs.)

Then the massive reaction fom the fans throwing many more objects on the ice. The announcement to "please stop", which triggered the third and final wave of debris.


I heard Al McGuire say that in a nationally telecast game against (I don't remember, maybe Dean Smith and North Carolina) that he wanted to get the first Technical Foul to fire up the crowd and get them booing the refs. Marquette had the ball, so it cost them a possession and the free throws. I think that Dean got a Tech later in the game when Marquette had the ball. He seemed very unhappy with the refs at that point.

It had never occurred to me that a coach would do that on purpose! Marquette ended up losing that game in the last minute on a bad turnover.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Kids hockey game the other night. Great game, our kids battled back from 2-0 deficit to a 5-2 lead, only to see it whittled down to 6-5. Final minute in our zone, puck comes a good 10 feet out of the zone, only to get passed back into the zone, player scores. Ref signals goal.

All us coaches start going nuts. Not yelling at the refs, just yelling "he was offside!!!111".

Second ref who was back at the blueline, immediately waves off the goal. Has nothing to do with us coaches - he was just the ref in the right position to see the offside.

We all sheepishly shut up.

Our kids win 6-5.

 

[beedee]

Kids hockey game the other night. Great game, our kids battled back from 2-0 deficit to a 5-2 lead, only to see it whittled down to 6-5. Final minute in our zone, puck comes a good 10 feet out of the zone, only to get passed back into the zone, player scores. Ref signals goal.

All us coaches start going nuts. Not yelling at the refs, just yelling "he was offside!!!111".

Second ref who was back at the blueline, immediately waves off the goal. Has nothing to do with us coaches - he was just the ref in the right position to see the offside.

We all sheepishly shut up.

Our kids win 6-5.

So you guys were just yelling at each other?

 

[The Crypto Guy]

So you guys were just yelling at each other?

I think they were yelling at the parents.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I think they were yelling at the parents.

In a scenario like that, the parents wouldn't have heard them, though, they'd be yelling too loudly themselves. Too bad the 2nd ref saw it, it would have been a more entertaining story.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Interesting reading some posts on here. In my experience, I only had one occasion where I felt like the ref was against me.

Once was in Bantam. I'll admit to always being the smallest one on the ice. This one huge player kept giving me nasty cross checks in the back, to the point where after the game my lower back was all bruised afterwards. Towards the end of the third period, after having enough, I gave him a good slash. The ref put me in the box and berated me and threatened to kick me out in front of my coaches and family. After the game my coaches gave me some reassurance but shit, that was nuts. the other player was taking extreme liberties because of my small size

 

[MeHateHe]

Interesting reading some posts on here. In my experience, I only had one occasion where I felt like the ref was against me.

You have to ask yourself why you are so important that of all the people on the ice, the referee decided that you were the one worth picking on. I refereed thousands of hockey players. Except for the ones who wound up in the NHL, I don’t remember any of them.



The story about Tim Peel is different from a lot of referee/coach interactions only by a matter of degrees. The connecting tissue is that coaches/players/parents think they know better than the referees. The most generous reality is that they saw things differently than the referee did. Perspective variations are not an excuse for abuse.

Former NHL referee Tim Peel accused of 'berating' teenage youth hockey officials

Former NHL referee Tim Peel allegedly followed two 17-year-old referees to their dressing room, blocked the door and threatened their jobs.

theathletic.com

 

[Xanlet]

Former NHL referee Tim Peel accused of 'berating' teenage youth hockey officials

Former NHL referee Tim Peel allegedly followed two 17-year-old referees to their dressing room, blocked the door and threatened their jobs.

theathletic.com

This is an example of an existential problem in officiating. Most organizations have great rhetoric about respect in sport and sportsmanship and all the rest, but when specific individuals majorly cross the line, the punishment is just a tiny slap on the wrist, if that.

Like any law or rule, if the enforcement is lacking, the rule might as well not exist. If Tim Peel entered the referee room when he was a parent of one of the players, that is automatically a massive transgression, and if he wouldn't leave when the referees told him to, that rises to the level of permanent ban from the arena in my opinion. You cannot EVER have parents allowed to pursue the referees off the ice, no matter how famous or high profile they think they are. Certain conduct is unacceptable, and when I say unacceptable I mean literally, it cannot be accepted and must be eliminated permanently when it occurs.

These are teenage referees officiating 10 year old players. If the adults can't control themselves in this kind of situation, the game doesn't deserve to exist, and with the way it alienates potential referees, it won't exist much longer.

 

[I am toxic]

Reffing in hockey has a serious problem, due to unaccountability.

Until they are made accountable, it will not change - neither their poor egocentric performance, nor the verbal abuse they receive as a result of the situation as it currently stands. Any thoughts that this will change without ref accountability is deeply naive.

Is there good reffing that isn't ego driven? Of course there is, there are always exceptions to the rule. But the rule won't change without accountability.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Reffing in hockey has a serious problem, due to unaccountability.

Until they are made accountable, it will not change - neither their poor egocentric performance, nor the verbal abuse they receive as a result of the situation as it currently stands. Any thoughts that this will change without ref accountability is deeply naive.

Is there good reffing that isn't ego driven? Of course there is, there are always exceptions to the rule. But the rule won't change without accountability.

What, exactly, is ref "accountability" supposed to look like?

And to be clear - are you talking about the minor or rec level like the rest of this thread has been?

 

[I am toxic]

What, exactly, is ref "accountability" supposed to look like?

And to be clear - are you talking about the minor or rec level like the rest of this thread has been?

Yes, minor and rec hockey, but also applies to other leagues including junior, college, and pro.

 

[Slats432]

Reffing in hockey has a serious problem, due to unaccountability.

Until they are made accountable, it will not change - neither their poor egocentric performance, nor the verbal abuse they receive as a result of the situation as it currently stands. Any thoughts that this will change without ref accountability is deeply naive.

Is there good reffing that isn't ego driven? Of course there is, there are always exceptions to the rule. But the rule won't change without accountability.

I am not sure what this opinion is trying to state, but please provide context and examples of what you are talking about.

Accountability for 11-12 year olds reffing U9.
Accountability for a 40 year old guy reffing rec hockey.
There is already accountability in pros. Playoff games (Hence income) is assigned based on regular season performance.

So what exactly are we talking about here? What do you mean by accountability and how do you implement it exactly?

 

[KeydGV21]

Your staff was out of line and can learn from it. Hopefully they apologize the next time they see that ref.

An 11 year old is down on the ice for 30 seconds, coaches get upset there isn’t a whistle…and you think it’s the coaches who were out of line?

L…O…L…

The kid was 11, blow the damn whistle…

 

[Outl4w]

There is a beer league at my ref that has no business skating on the ice or reffing a game. He can barely stay on his own two feet. He constantly messing up calls like icing being waived off for no reason or calling icing on a pk. He let's players curse him out consistently and really has no control or understanding of the game. He has only been reffing for a year and skating on the ice for a year. It is not uncommon for him to fall a few times a game. I feel bad for him but at the same time he shouldn't be reffing adult hockey. I have tried to give him some pointers because he is a nice guy like don't allow players to talk to you like that and call a 2 minute penalty with a warning that next time it is a 2 and a 10 minute game misconduct.

 

[MeHateHe]

Reffing in hockey has a serious problem, due to unaccountability.

Until they are made accountable, it will not change - neither their poor egocentric performance, nor the verbal abuse they receive as a result of the situation as it currently stands. Any thoughts that this will change without ref accountability is deeply naive.

Is there good reffing that isn't ego driven? Of course there is, there are always exceptions to the rule. But the rule won't change without accountability.

Absolutely correct.

Let's make the 14-year-old refereeing the cross-ice U7 game stand in front of a jury of parents an explain why he didn't call a penalty in the crucial Nov. 8 game. Accountability, dammit.

And for the sarcasm-challenged among you, let me remind you that my post is only half as dumb as the one it replied to.

First, officials are held accountable by other officials. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Officials get supervised all the time.

But in no sane part of the world do we think that shaming someone - because that's really what the poster and his ilk want - make anyone better. Good supervision, however, is about training and development, teaching young officials how to improve.

As they develop, more senior officials are typically weeded out if they can't handle the level they're skating at. Those who get better get better games. Are there referees who make mistakes? Of course. In general, however, appropriate officials are being assigned for the level of hockey they can officiate.

Anyone who talks about "egocentric performance" hasn't got a clue about how refereeing happens. And talking about "accountability" is mind-blowing.

 

[I am toxic]

Absolutely correct.

Let's make the 14-year-old refereeing the cross-ice U7 game stand in front of a jury of parents an explain why he didn't call a penalty in the crucial Nov. 8 game. Accountability, dammit.

And for the sarcasm-challenged among you, let me remind you that my post is only half as dumb as the one it replied to.

First, officials are held accountable by other officials. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Officials get supervised all the time.

But in no sane part of the world do we think that shaming someone - because that's really what the poster and his ilk want - make anyone better. Good supervision, however, is about training and development, teaching young officials how to improve.

As they develop, more senior officials are typically weeded out if they can't handle the level they're skating at. Those who get better get better games. Are there referees who make mistakes? Of course. In general, however, appropriate officials are being assigned for the level of hockey they can officiate.

Anyone who talks about "egocentric performance" hasn't got a clue about how refereeing happens. And talking about "accountability" is mind-blowing.

Agree to disagree.

If I had any respect for your ridiculous viewpoint and intellectual dishonesty, I would provide a detailed response.

Should you decide to apologize and acknowledge the intellectually dishonesty, I will re-engage in conversation at a later date when time allows.

 

[MeHateHe]

Agree to disagree.

If I had any respect for your ridiculous viewpoint and intellectual dishonesty, I would provide a detailed response.

Should you decide to apologize and acknowledge the intellectually dishonesty, I will re-engage in conversation at a later date when time allows.

So you don't like it when people call you out? The people demand accountability.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Agree to disagree.

If I had any respect for your ridiculous viewpoint and intellectual dishonesty, I would provide a detailed response.

Should you decide to apologize and acknowledge the intellectually dishonesty, I will re-engage in conversation at a later date when time allows.

So, two other people asked you to be specific about what you meant when you said “accountability”.

Perhaps the intellectually honest thing would be to respond to those posts as well as the one you just wanted to take shots back at.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Reffing in hockey has a serious problem, due to unaccountability.

Until they are made accountable, it will not change - neither their poor egocentric performance, nor the verbal abuse they receive as a result of the situation as it currently stands. Any thoughts that this will change without ref accountability is deeply naive.

Is there good reffing that isn't ego driven? Of course there is, there are always exceptions to the rule. But the rule won't change without accountability.

So, you want accountability of officials at the youth level? What would that solve and how would you go about holding these officials accountable? It has been well documented there is a shortage of officials for youth games in most areas and this would make the problem worse.

 

[Fanned On It]

So I'm going to agree and disagree.

First when it comes to a kid lying on the ice, absolutely there should be a hair trigger for a whistle. It made me furious when the ref said 'he talked to the kid and he was fine' as he was lying on the ice. You're the adult (well, teenager), look after the safety of a kid. The explanation we got (before the ref stopped talking to us) had nothing to do with waiting for the team to get control of the puck.

That being said, in a different situation I don't have a problem with stacking bench penalties (well in my case a "too many men" plus a bench minor, then a subsequent bench minor). Don't be an idiot with refs. It's only a game.

Oh yeah - I almost forgot this part. After the two minute 5 on 3 expired (though we had 3 in the box) one kid was released. At the next whistle the second kid was released. Ref gives us ANOTHER bench minor because... I'm not sure why - the kid was supposed to stay in the box despite his (well the team) penalty expired? It was still a 5 on 4.

For the last penalty: certain penalties require players to wait until the next stoppage of play before they can leave the penalty box.

 

[Fanned On It]

Not knowing what goes through a teenager ref has going through his mind, I can't tell you what the best action would have been if there was a serious medical emergency. It would have been better, as I suggested to have an adult (Not sure there were any on your bench), have a calm conversation with the referee after the incident to ensure player safety. The rest of the stuff is just coaches being coaches and treating refs badly. All that penalty stuff is irrelevant after you yelled at the ref. Hopefully the ref quits reffing minor hockey like me and my son did after someone in Atom tier five yelled at us for a trip back in 2014.

Maybe I sound overly salty, but in my hundreds of minor hockey games and thousands of men's league games, the poor treatment of the refs in sports is undeniably an epidemic of unbelievable proportions.

Let's agree with this, the young ref likely didn't handle the first issue properly. After you started yelling at him, the rest is your fault. IMO. Maybe he was too nervous being yelled at by "adults" that his judgement was clouded the rest of the way.

You don't sound salty, you sound sensitive and passive-aggressive. "I'm not sure there were any aDuLtS oN yOuR bEnCh..."

We get it, you couldn't handle being heckled by coaches as a referee. Overall, I agree that these coaches shouldn't have yelled at the refs but if we're being honest, there are times when referees make ABSOLUTELY EGREGIOUS CALLS, or even worse, NON-CALLS. If you see kids on both teams go down hard and the ref doesn't take it seriously, it's understandable that you'd yell a bit after it happens a few times.

You saying otherwise is you being unrealistic. We've ALL been in that situation.

 

[Slats432]

You don't sound salty, you sound sensitive and passive-aggressive. "I'm not sure there were any aDuLtS oN yOuR bEnCh..."

We get it, you couldn't handle being heckled by coaches as a referee. Overall, I agree that these coaches shouldn't have yelled at the refs but if we're being honest, there are times when referees make ABSOLUTELY EGREGIOUS CALLS, or even worse, NON-CALLS. If you see kids on both teams go down hard and the ref doesn't take it seriously, it's understandable that you'd yell a bit after it happens a few times.

You saying otherwise is you being unrealistic. We've ALL been in that situation.

I get it, you have never officiated. The amount of things young referees get yelled at for is ridiculous. And it wasn't me, it was younger refs. I still ref and don't ref minor hockey because too many coaches and parents are idiots. Why do you think they had to come up with a Respect in Sport program.

Here is some reading that might help you.

Verbal abuse toward hockey officials on the rise: Nova Scotia’s top referee

Cape Breton Regional Police say a review is underway into allegations one of its officers may have acted inappropriately at a minor hockey game in North Sydney, N.S., in February.

atlantic.ctvnews.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/youth-hockey-green-arm-bands-verbal-abuse-1.6675830

Verbal abuse goes too far for Cape Breton hockey officials

Verbal abuse from the stands has two Hockey Nova Scotia officials contemplating their future on the ice.

atlantic.ctvnews.ca

Officiating Task Force Looks to Help Curb Abuse of Officials with Reporting Portal

The task force is hoping the portal will increase the number of reported incidents of abuse without creating confrontations at games.

www.usahockey.com

Hockey parents who yell at referees

Hockey referees are quitting in the province (Sport Manitoba, 2019) and, when asked, referees often state that spectator abuse is a reason for quitting. To this end, Sport Manitoba created a campaign

news.umanitoba.ca

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/hockey-ref-shortage-1.6556864

Massachusetts Youth Hockey Referees Are Quitting In Droves Due To Abuse

Harassment and abuse from parents, coaches and even players is to blame, the referee association’s president said.

www.wgbh.org

There's No State of Hockey Without Stripes

Every year, around 30,000 youth hockey games are played in the State of Hockey. That means 30,000 times that men and women donned the black and white stripes as officials, giving their time and energy to support our great game. Unfortunately, they are too often treated poorly by adults and kids alik

www.minnesotahockey.org

Refs wanted: COVID-19 and verbal, emotional 'abuse' take toll on Sask. hockey leagues

The Saskatoon Minor Hockey Association has seen a 31 per cent drop in referees — to 185 from 270 — this season compared to two years ago.

saskatoon.ctvnews.ca

Bad behavior from parents pushing youth hockey refs out

An increase in bad behavior from people sitting in the stands at youth hockey games is causing some referees to quit.

www.9news.com

Why There's An Officiating Shortage In Youth Hockey

Massachusetts, along with Minnesota, can likely be considered the hotbed of youth hockey in the United States. However, youth hockey […]

www.stack.com

But I know you won't read any of it. Adults don't scream at teenage refs. But judging by your first two sentences, you would fit right in with the coaches.

 

[oldunclehue]

You don't sound salty, you sound sensitive and passive-aggressive. "I'm not sure there were any aDuLtS oN yOuR bEnCh..."

We get it, you couldn't handle being heckled by coaches as a referee. Overall, I agree that these coaches shouldn't have yelled at the refs but if we're being honest, there are times when referees make ABSOLUTELY EGREGIOUS CALLS, or even worse, NON-CALLS. If you see kids on both teams go down hard and the ref doesn't take it seriously, it's understandable that you'd yell a bit after it happens a few times.

You saying otherwise is you being unrealistic. We've ALL been in that situation.

I have refed lots and coached lots and been involved in hockey for over 35 years. I think the respect for refs is actually getting a lot better. Kids and coaches shake hands, have conversations and treat the refs with respect where I play, coach and ref. It's great. But as someone who is involved in law enforcement, there are always going to be bad cops (power hungry) and bad refs for the same reason.

For me, I rarely if ever will yell at a ref, I do get a little horny when I see a call and I will yell "trip, hook, interference" but that is from habit as a player too.

I feel that communication is HUGE from refs to players and coaches. The best refs I've seen will communicate with coaches and players before, throughout and after a game. It's easy to give a handshake, on a whistle or penalty give a quick explanation to a coach or player. it keeps parents calm, players calm and coaches as well.

The WORST is the smirking, side eye zero communication ref who you can clearly see is trying to get the attention to them. In our hockey system we have one that comes to mind. I have yelled at him, but rightfully so and I do not regret it. He refuses to even acknowledge players and coaches asking for any clarity, he smirks at coaches when asking for any form of explanation to a call, he turns his back to players and coaches when asking or talking to him. He's also severly overweight and lazy so out of position often. He is also in his late 40's so a coach yelling after refusing any communication and seemingly trying to get a rise out of the coach isn't an issue.

Good refs are hard to find....I treat any and all with respect. But if you refuse to communicate, refuse to explain anything and miss calls/ruin games due to laziness and ineptness, expect some vocalization from coaches, players and parents.

 

[Slats432]

Good refs are hard to find....I treat any and all with respect. But if you refuse to communicate, refuse to explain anything and miss calls/ruin games due to laziness and ineptness, expect some vocalization from coaches, players and parents.

This (other than the refs that obviously do a poor job) is the biggest complaint I get from players in Rec league is a guy that won't take the time to explain a call. Last night I did a men's league game that a player got called for a trip in the first for sticking his foot out. In the 2nd one of the players on his team lost an edge when an opposing players stick was right beside him and he thought it was a trip and said right behind me "that was way worse than what I did. f***ing unbelievable."

I had to explain that although the players stick was beside him, he just lost an edge. Sometimes players want to know why a call was made or not made.

The challenge is presentation. I try to educate players that coming to a ref to tell them they screwed up/missed a call/etc doesn't promote communication. Communication isn't going to the ref and complaining.

Best advice: "Stripes, no call there?" or "Our 22 went down there, what did you see?"

If game is not going well from your standpoint/too rough/etc: "Stripes, our bench feels like too much is going on out there? Do you see it the same way?"

Remember what your goal is. Getting the frustration off your chest and expecting the referee to accept it, is not within a ref's job description. (Although there is the odd occasion where I will let a player blow off a bit of steam IF I believe there is a good chance I missed a call.)