Complaining about refs...

[PK Cronin]

I'm a big fan of telling kids they're okay when they go down and seeing how they respond. As someone mentioned earlier, young kids are typically staying down because they think they should and not because they're actually hurt. That clearly wasn't the case in this situation but you'd be amazed how many times I've seen kids pop back up and start skating around like nothing happened after being reassured they're okay and/or they realize the play will continue without them. I'd like to note that this isn't something that should be done in the likelihood of a serious injury (neck first crash into the boards, etc.).

Your best bet is to have a good relationship with the ref. Give them some affirmation when they're doing well, even if it negatively impacts your team. Don't let your team yell at the officials, ever. Teaching your team how to respect the officials is a really good way to ensure officials don't get abused by the players later on when they're older. Speaking to them calmly and then just saying, "I understand" after the explanation of minor stuff, even if you disagree, will go a long way when you actually want to argue something or yell.

If the ref is a young teenager he likely felt intimidated and was using the only tools he thought he had to reel your coaching staff in. Unfortunately I don't think he did a very good job either but that's to be expected from someone that young.

 

[Pablo Messier]

I'm a big fan of telling kids they're okay when they go down and seeing how they respond. As someone mentioned earlier, young kids are typically staying down because they think they should and not because they're actually hurt. That clearly wasn't the case in this situation but you'd be amazed how many times I've seen kids pop back up and start skating around like nothing happened after being reassured they're okay and/or they realize the play will continue without them. I'd like to note that this isn't something that should be done in the likelihood of a serious injury (neck first crash into the boards, etc.).

Your best bet is to have a good relationship with the ref. Give them some affirmation when they're doing well, even if it negatively impacts your team. Don't let your team yell at the officials, ever. Teaching your team how to respect the officials is a really good way to ensure officials don't get abused by the players later on when they're older. Speaking to them calmly and then just saying, "I understand" after the explanation of minor stuff, even if you disagree, will go a long way when you actually want to argue something or yell.

If the ref is a young teenager he likely felt intimidated and was using the only tools he thought he had to reel your coaching staff in. Unfortunately I don't think he did a very good job either but that's to be expected from someone that young.

That's the key word. Respect. To teach respect or coach good sportsmanship, you have to display it yourself as a parent or coach.

 

[Neutrinos]

If you were that concerned for the well-being of the 10-year old during the game, why didn't you jump the boards to go render aid? Why are you screaming at someone instead of taking charge of the situation?

If it were me, I wouldn't be waiting for a stoppage in play if I thought a child was seriously hurt on the ice

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Speaking of yelling at the refs. When you see a team roll in with 5 dads wearing team jackets all behind the bench... do the refs brace themselves for what's likely to come? Saw that happen yesterday, though only one of the dads got kicked out of the game. 2 or 3 others probably could have. Along with several of their SOs in the stands.

Not for any abnormal things that happened on the ice. No injuries or anything. Maybe a few fairly typical gray zone calls. But more just because of the tension of them losing a 1-0 game they maybe thought they were destined by divine right to win against a team lower in the standings?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Speaking of yelling at the refs. When you see a team roll in with 5 dads wearing team jackets all behind the bench... do the refs brace themselves for what's likely to come? Saw that happen yesterday, though only one of the dads got kicked out of the game. 2 or 3 others probably could have. Along with several of their SOs in the stands.

Not for any abnormal things that happened on the ice. No injuries or anything. Maybe a few fairly typical gray zone calls. But more just because of the tension of them losing a 1-0 game they maybe thought they were destined by divine right to win against a team lower in the standings?

I resemble this remark - we roll with up to 5 dads/coaches, and although I could do without the team jackets a couple of the other coaches wanted to get them so I went along with the crowd.

I bet half the teams we play against have coaches in team/club jackets though. And we've only ever had one coach kicked out, one time (which led to me making this thread in the first place...)

 

[MeHateHe]

Would invite all you yellers to take a watch the last five minutes of the women's U18 gold medal game yesterday. Canada is ahead by 10 goals. Canadian forward gets a breakaway, gets fouled and the referee throws her arm up for delayed penalty. Forward scores. Goal is eventually overturned for goaltender interference. (Not sure I would have seen it that way, but I get the sense that's a normal IIHF call, so whatever).

Officials get set up for the faceoff outside the blueline. Referee goes to explain at the Canadian bench. Following the video review, the delayed penalty seems to have been forgotten by everyone. You can see the Canadian coach start to ask about the delayed penalty, but then stops herself, says 'it's okay' and waves the referee away.

Time and place. Why complain about a minor penalty late in the game when one more goal either way will make zero difference. Now ask yourself: is the thing I'm complaining about going to make any real difference? Is it enough to sour your relationship with the referee? I guarandamntee you that no line call is worth it, and understanding that no ref is going to change their mind because you think they're wrong, most penalty disputes aren't worth that either.

 

[Slats432]

I don't mind if it is dads behind the bench, team jackets, or whatever. (I remember that a team I coached in Novice bought jackets for all the boys and gave one to all us coaches as a thank you for volunteering). It should be just common sense for all to treat refs (ESPECIALLY YOUNG REFS) with respect and talk in a tone that can help everyone enjoy being part of the game.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

I don't care how many penalties you received. Several times in the original post you used losing it and screaming at the refs. Don't care.

The proper procedure for any referee is to check with the player to see if they are OK. At U11, the chances of it being a very serious injury is low, so your coaches being idiots affect EVERYTHING that happens afterward. All of what happened based on your description was because you were yelling at the ref. If you frazzled a teenager and he gave you lots of penalties GOOD. Don't be a dummy and yell at refs.

You talked previously like you've done some officiating, but the bolded tells me you don't have a clue what you're talking about. This is absolutely NOT proper procedure. If a player is down and not getting up, if his team has the puck, play stops immediately. If the player appears to be in distress, play stops regardless. Player safety is the #1 priority for any official.

And you're assertion that because a ref is frazzled, he's justified in giving more penalties is way off base too. Just because they are frazzled, or the objects of abuse, the rulebook must be adhered to. Coaches (and parents) can be nutjobs, but that does not absolve officials from their responsibility to the rulebook.

Sounds like there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides in this situation.

 

[patnyrnyg]

You talked previously like you've done some officiating, but the bolded tells me you don't have a clue what you're talking about. This is absolutely NOT proper procedure. If a player is down and not getting up, if his team has the puck, play stops immediately. If the player appears to be in distress, play stops regardless. Player safety is the #1 priority for any official.

And you're assertion that because a ref is frazzled, he's justified in giving more penalties is way off base too. Just because they are frazzled, or the objects of abuse, the rulebook must be adhered to. Coaches (and parents) can be nutjobs, but that does not absolve officials from their responsibility to the rulebook.

Sounds like there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides in this situation.

As someone who has reffed other sports, if you do not think this comes into play at the amateur level that you must not have ever officiated. At the minor professional level, yes. I have been told my many minor league baseball umpires that a big part of their evaluation is how the react in these situations. I knew umpires who were very good who would purposely screw players who complained or argued. However, this amateur level (some NCAA). But, do that in minor league baseball and you pretty much sabotage your chances of moving up the ranks.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

As someone who has reffed other sports, if you do not think this comes into play at the amateur level that you must not have ever officiated. At the minor professional level, yes. I have been told my many minor league baseball umpires that a big part of their evaluation is how the react in these situations. I knew umpires who were very good who would purposely screw players who complained or argued. However, this amateur level (some NCAA). But, do that in minor league baseball and you pretty much sabotage your chances of moving up the ranks.

Oh I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that it's not justified, like the other poster said, and in fact ENCOURAGED. It definitely happens - I'm just saying that it shouldn't be celebrated like this other guy did.

And yes, I've officiated other sports in addition to almost 15 years reffing hockey, so I totally understand the human nature involved. I'm just saying it's something that every official should be aware of and not give in to (or try not to). Some guy who used to be a ref until an Atom parent yelled at him saying it was a good thing that a ref who got yelled at gave a bunch of penalties that may not have been warranted pretty much wrecks his credibility. At least in my opinion.

 

[Slats432]

You talked previously like you've done some officiating, but the bolded tells me you don't have a clue what you're talking about. This is absolutely NOT proper procedure. If a player is down and not getting up, if his team has the puck, play stops immediately. If the player appears to be in distress, play stops regardless. Player safety is the #1 priority for any official.

And you're assertion that because a ref is frazzled, he's justified in giving more penalties is way off base too. Just because they are frazzled, or the objects of abuse, the rulebook must be adhered to. Coaches (and parents) can be nutjobs, but that does not absolve officials from their responsibility to the rulebook.

Sounds like there's plenty of blame to go around on both sides in this situation.

I have done thousands of games. You check with the player. If you have any inclination that they are hurt more than just a bump, you blow it down otherwise. You are assuming that a young referee would react normally. I am saying that a young inexperienced ref is not going to have the wherewithall to make good decisions if he is being intimidated by adults. None of it is absolved but you are missing the point. The abuse of officials creates more problems. I am not excusing the ref for making poor decisions after the fact, but the coaches were nutjobs and caused tons more grief rather than being adults, like you would hope them to be.

 

[MeHateHe]

I have done thousands of games. You check with the player. If you have any inclination that they are hurt more than just a bump, you blow it down otherwise.

It's a bit of a sliding scale, obviously, depending on age. But having done a lot of games at this level I'll say that checking in with the player is always the best first step. At the U11 group, for every 100 times players stay down longer than a few seconds:
30 are because they just need a little rest
5 are looking for some attention
5 are because they are too lazy to get up quick
25 are because they got a bit of a knock which scared them more than hurt them
20 are because they are in pain roughly akin to a stubbed toe
14 are because the had the wind knocked out of them (which when you're 10 feels like you're dying)
1 is actually injured and needs actual attention.

So, for the first 40, if you ask, they'll realize that someone is looking and they will pop up and skate off.
For the ones who got scared, if you ask them, half will find it reassuring enough that they'll get up and skate off, and the other half will take your attention to come to the conclusion that they're probably near death and will not move at all and then you're blowing it dead.
For the 20 who are in a little pain, if you ask them, half of them will hear their dad/grandad/uncle telling them to 'be a man and suck it up' or something and try to get up, and the others will start looking around for their severed limb, so for those, you're probably blowing it dead.
For the ones who had the wind knocked out of them, if you ask them, two will try to get up - of those, only one will be successful because it sucks getting the wind knocked out of them, and then you're blowing it dead.
And for the one of the 100 who is actually injured, that kid isn't making eye contact with you, and good referees will know that means the kid needs attention.

So yeah, having instructed thousands of referees, my instruction is always to assess the situation before reacting. Yes, safety is important, and you want to err on the side of caution, but checking in on the kids is a good way to make sure that you're also allowing the kids to have fun - which is definitely interrupted if you're blowing the whistle every time someone fall down go boom. You can tell really quickly - a matter of a few seconds - whether or not you have a real injury or if you've got some kid that maybe isn't terribly invested in the game in the first place who just wants a nice lie-down. (And to be clear: all the dads and moms reading this - your kids are great. It's that Johnson kid - the weird one with the hair - he's the slacker.)

 

[Xanlet]

Let's break this situation down a little. You felt morally justified in yelling because your player's safety was at risk. But what actual effect did this yelling have? Clearly, the referee saw the downed player and made the decision not to blow the whistle. At this point, the continued yelling did not draw the desired whistle, so it did not make the situation any better. Instead, it clearly rattled the official and made him hostile towards you and your coaches, making the situation worse.

Your temper and your voice are entirely under your own control, but instead of exercising this control, your coaches continued yelling and made the situation worse. This is why yelling is never helpful, it will always make the referee worse, and make the situation worse. The referee is the authority in charge of your players' safety, therefore you should do everything you can to work with him and empower him.

As a coach, it is never your place to criticize the referee in any way on the ice because of the aforementioned reasons, that it will not help and can only make the situation worse, thus further endangering your players. If you feel your players are in significant danger, you can withdraw your team from the ice and face the consequences. Otherwise, you've all accepted a certain degree of risk when stepping on the ice, part of that risk is from human error of the officials.

What you can do is obtain the referee's name from the game sheet, obtain your local referee-in-chief's name and e-mail from your league (usually available on the website) and compose a calm and constructive e-mail informing the referee-in-chief of the situation and suggesting further training of the referee or to have a senior official on the lines with him to help him in these situations.

Beyond that, I'd like to bring attention to something even more important. In my minor hockey association, all coaches take a pledge to instill sportsmanship, integrity, self discipline and responsibility in their players. In cases such as yours, you have 10 year old boys who are looking up to the grown men coaching them and seeing them yell at an official in a tough situation. That moral justification that you have to yell at the ref, you are passing that to your players too, teaching them that under the right circumstances it's okay to lose your temper and yell at the ref. Is this in keeping with sportsmanship, integrity, self discipline and responsibility? In life, you will encounter people you believe to be dangerously failing in their jobs. A person with integrity assesses the situation and chooses the most constructive course of action, which often requires self control. It's vitally important to help these young boys grow into mature young men who know how to channel their outrage at injustice in constructive ways.

 

[Slats432]

Let's break this situation down a little. You felt morally justified in yelling because your player's safety was at risk. But what actual effect did this yelling have? Clearly, the referee saw the downed player and made the decision not to blow the whistle. At this point, the continued yelling did not draw the desired whistle, so it did not make the situation any better. Instead, it clearly rattled the official and made him hostile towards you and your coaches, making the situation worse.

Your temper and your voice are entirely under your own control, but instead of exercising this control, your coaches continued yelling and made the situation worse. This is why yelling is never helpful, it will always make the referee worse, and make the situation worse. The referee is the authority in charge of your players' safety, therefore you should do everything you can to work with him and empower him.

As a coach, it is never your place to criticize the referee in any way on the ice because of the aforementioned reasons, that it will not help and can only make the situation worse, thus further endangering your players. If you feel your players are in significant danger, you can withdraw your team from the ice and face the consequences. Otherwise, you've all accepted a certain degree of risk when stepping on the ice, part of that risk is from human error of the officials.

What you can do is obtain the referee's name from the game sheet, obtain your local referee-in-chief's name and e-mail from your league (usually available on the website) and compose a calm and constructive e-mail informing the referee-in-chief of the situation and suggesting further training of the referee or to have a senior official on the lines with him to help him in these situations.

Beyond that, I'd like to bring attention to something even more important. In my minor hockey association, all coaches take a pledge to instill sportsmanship, integrity, self discipline and responsibility in their players. In cases such as yours, you have 10 year old boys who are looking up to the grown men coaching them and seeing them yell at an official in a tough situation. That moral justification that you have to yell at the ref, you are passing that to your players too, teaching them that under the right circumstances it's okay to lose your temper and yell at the ref. Is this in keeping with sportsmanship, integrity, self discipline and responsibility? In life, you will encounter people you believe to be dangerously failing in their jobs. A person with integrity assesses the situation and chooses the most constructive course of action, which often requires self control. It's vitally important to help these young boys grow into mature young men who know how to channel their outrage at injustice in constructive ways.

If I had a burner account this is what I would have said.

 

[Oil Gauge]

I've played hockey since I was 3, I reffed minor hockey in my teenaged years, I reffed men's league as an adult, now I assign officials for minor hockey.

Especially in Minor Hockey, and especially at the younger levels like U11, these officials are just starting to learn how to officiate the game. They are newer to officiating than your players are to hockey. You and your coaching staff combined with the other teams coaches are usually the only adults involved in the game. Do what you are there to do and help teach the kids the game, if you think the ref could have done something better tell them in a calm and controlled manner. Help them learn the game. Let them do their job, let them learn, help them where you think you can.

What would you do if one of your players parents was yelling over the glass all game telling your players what a brutal job they were doing? You'd probably tell them that was unacceptable. So stop doing it to the refs.

What you should really do is sign up to ref next year.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I lost so much respect for my kids coach when I saw him screaming at the top of his lungs at a 14 year old ref who missed a 10 year old go offside.

It's absolutely absurd behavior

 

[MeHateHe]

I lost so much respect for my kids coach when I saw him screaming at the top of his lungs at a 14 year old ref who missed a 10 year old go offside.

It's absolutely absurd behavior

I always tell the story of the novice (U7) coach who made one of our association's 12-year-old referees cry because he was screaming at him about an offside. Kid never refereed again. Coach never coached again.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Not that it truly makes a difference, but what level of U11 hockey is this? U11 AAA? House?

In my experience, the more letters the nuttier the coaching staff/parents etc.

Though sadly it happens at all levels and we wonder why there's a referee shortage.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Not that it truly makes a difference, but what level of U11 hockey is this? U11 AAA? House?

In my experience, the more letters the nuttier the coaching staff/parents etc.

Though sadly it happens at all levels and we wonder why there's a referee shortage.

Tier 2 club hockey. No letters.

With respect though I haven't found that to be the case - "nutty" coaches can be found throughout.

 

[gritdash60]

I love reffing these 8-11yo kids, no complains ever. They just go to the box and drink juice!

 

[gritdash60]

or like this kid said "if i trip someone and you dont see it, you cant call the penalty!" Hes going places!

 

[adsfan]

As someone who has reffed other sports, if you do not think this comes into play at the amateur level that you must not have ever officiated. At the minor professional level, yes. I have been told my many minor league baseball umpires that a big part of their evaluation is how the react in these situations. I knew umpires who were very good who would purposely screw players who complained or argued. However, this amateur level (some NCAA). But, do that in minor league baseball and you pretty much sabotage your chances of moving up the ranks.

I saw that in the IHL during one game in 1990. After the third 5-on-3 was called, which was in the middle of period 2, the crowd reacted in what I would call a riot. The game was stopped because there were about 500 objects (sodas, popcorn boxes, game programs and even a few beers) on the ice. It took half an hour to remove the objects and resurface the ice. That ref never worked another game in that city. The local newspaper did a quarter page story about what happened. Eventually, that ref went to another minor league.

I have been to a 1000 hockey games, mostly IHL and AHL. It was the only time that I attended in person and I felt that the ref was trying to make one team lose the game,


When my kids were in high school, I went to a few football games. The team was awful, rarely winning a game. One of my co-workers used to officiate basketball and football. I happened to see him in the parking lot and went over to say hi before walking over to the football stadium. His three fellow officials looked like they were afraid that I was going to him or something like that. I wished them a good game and quickly left. I have never seen 3 grown men looked so frightened. It made me wonder what happened to them in the past. My state has a shortage of sports officials some 20 years later. COVID-19 isn't the only reason.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I saw that in the IHL during one game in 1990. After the third 5-on-3 was called, which was in the middle of period 2, the crowd reacted in what I would call a riot. The game was stopped because there were about 500 objects (sodas, popcorn boxes, game programs and even a few beers) on the ice. It took half an hour to remove the objects and resurface the ice. That ref never worked another game in that city. The local newspaper did a quarter page story about what happened. Eventually, that ref went to another minor league.

I think the dynamic you describe above, which exists at the professional and high-level amateur levels, is part of why we have so many coaches yelling at refs at lower levels.

Some coaches truly are screamers, nutcases, but most high level coaches know exactly what they're doing when they get in a ref's ear. I'll use baseball and basketball coaches as the example because they have much more of a role with the referee than hockey coaches do. The first couple of times a coach barks, it's like a warning shot to say "you better start evening up these calls". If that doesn't work, they start getting demonstrative (baseball manager comes out of the dugout, basketball coach gets in the ref's ear on the sideline). All of a sudden, you've got thousands and thousands of people who aren't just booing, they're standing up and screaming at the ref. You've got a whole team full of players giving him the stink eye. As a human being, that's a lot of pressure to apply to your decision making.

So when that next close call comes up, as a human being the ref's natural instinct is to find a way to calm things down and relieve the hostile pressure. That's not corruption, it's just human nature. If he still doesn't cooperate, and makes yet another call in favor of the opponent, it's fairly standard procedure for the coach to go ballistic and deliberately get himself kicked out as a way of activating the full wrath of both the players and crowd. At that point you've got the attention of the media as well, and the ref's at risk of becoming a name the team and crowd will remember in future games. He either eases up, or he becomes the Tim Peel of that league.

Those are all normal dynamics at the elite level, and pro refs and coaches are trained to handle those scenarios.

The problem is that lower-level coaches (and players) see that stuff on television and incorporate it into their idea of how to interact with refs. But at an amateur level none of these dynamics exist. There's no paying crowd of thousands, it's just a couple dozen parents. There's no pool of refs to be shuffled around, it's the same kid week after week. So there's no point in working him like that, you're just terrorizing the guy without any payoff. But just like the beer leaguer who plays an "agitator" role, some coaches genuinely fail to understand that things which are standard in a pro environment are inappropriate in a lower-level amateur environment.

At every level it's normal for people to get upset and argue a call, but at low levels that's where it ends. Both the refs and the players have to be tolerant of each other's amateur status, otherwise it's just not gonna work out for either of them in that environment.

 

[oldunclehue]

I coach minor hockey and have for 8 years (this will be my last as parents are NUTS). This year was my first year getting any bench minors (U13 gold coach). I also work in a career where enforcement is required and professionalism at all times. Accountability as well.

The OP situation is not a time to lose your cool on a ref and you can take all the responsibility of the penalties for that. Under hockey Canada rules, the play isn't stopped for an injured player until your team touches the puck or the player is badly injured. I've seen countless players go down after a small incident and lay there hoping for a penalty, only to pop up and be on the next shift or powerplay. it's sad but kids try it and refs buy into it.

I'd say the best bet here is to call the ref over for a quick conversation. Find out what his belief is and your concern as to what happened. Then its clarified.

One thing with refs is many don't like being "upstaged" and looking bad for missing calls etc so now they will punish the coach for doing so. This is what happened to me.

Older ref (50's) who is a local guy and known as one of the worst refs around, called a very soft call of "hitting" on my smallest player vs one of the other teams bigger plays. (body position along boards). I asked for clarification from the ref on the call and he laughed at me and said "i make the calls".

Very next shift one of my players was on a partial breakaway, the ref (being highly overweight and lazy) watched as the opposing player shouldered my player and then elbowed him in the head, knocking him off the breakaway and then taking the puck, my player slid into the goalie. NO CALL. I look at the ref and say "wheres the call" and he smiles at me as he skated by. I then yelled that he called a hit on my smallest player just before and missed that. Got a bench minor.

I regret the mistake of yelling, but sometimes you get tied up in the heat of the moment.

I have decided I am no longer coaching after this season due to some parent issues but I am going to take my reffing and stay involved. Be a level headed and fair ref.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The OP situation is not a time to lose your cool on a ref and you can take all the responsibility of the penalties for that. Under hockey Canada rules, the play isn't stopped for an injured player until your team touches the puck or the player is badly injured. I've seen countless players go down after a small incident and lay there hoping for a penalty, only to pop up and be on the next shift or powerplay. it's sad but kids try it and refs buy into it.

So look. Our head coach actually had a meeting with us assistants, and said we need to cool it with the refs. Which is curious because this coach is pretty hot-headed himself (although he'll admit that). His position was that our own kids feed off of us and when we start blaming the refs they lose focus/attention. I think he's right, and I dislike how many of our coaches keep wanting to argue routine calls (or non-calls) with the refs.

I can comfortably say I am the quietest coach of our whole team as well by a wide margin. I'm a lawyer, I know when to argue, and when to accept the judge's decision. I've even (gently) told our head coach to quit arguing a couple of times.

But even weeks later I'm still livid about the situation that started this thread. We're talking about 9-10 year olds. While I agree the huge majority of the time they are good to go by the next shift, it's not 100% of the time. Kids that age are not trying to draw a penalty - they just feel hurt and scared and lie down on the ice. The ref was not waiting for our team to touch the puck - he told us he thought the kid was fine (fun fact: he wasn't, never returned to the game).


As an aside, I was playing a nothing rec hockey game last night. One of our players calmly said "Hey stripes - can you explain that last call" Ref started to explain what he saw, had to skate away to follow the play, but even afterwards came back and finished the explanation. Impressed by both the player and and the ref who would take the time to explain the call at 11:15 pm on a Wednesday night.