Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[WarriorofTime]

So, similar to the US, but AAA is "Tier 1" and AA and below is Tier 2. But here, clubs have to apply for "tier 1 status". In NJ, there are probably about 12 tier 1 teams and they don't have restrictions on where kids can play. I know of at least 2 kids who live on Staten Island (for those unfamiliar that little piece of land in between Brooklyn and NJ that is not Manhattan) that play on a team in Connecticut. Drive to practice is anywhere from an hour and a half to 3 hours due to traffic.

Not at all uncommon for the Chicago Mission here as well, particularly for the 15 year old team. The Slaggerts (Graham, Landon, Carter... all 3 played for USNDTP and Notre Dame) father is an Asst. Coach at Notre Dame, so the family is from South Bend, and all played for the Mission before heading to the USNDTP. They must have commuted nearly 1.5-2 hours both ways unless they had a second place they'd stay during hockey season or something, dunno.

Jordan and Nick Schmaltz grew up near Madison (mom worked for UW), and both also played for the Mission. That's closer to 2.5-3 hours both ways. Feel like there's no way they didn't have somewhere else they were staying then.

I suppose worth it for guys like that who clearly have pro hockey futures. The 'ordinary' kids are gonna be Chicago-based generally but still a decent commute for kids from all over the suburbs to get into the city. Limited other options even aside from playing for the "best" though. There's Team Illinois in Woodridge that Cole Caufield played for and whatever the Young Americans are called now where Alex Galchenyuk played.

 

[patnyrnyg]

So this is more just in Alberta - can't speak for other provinces.

Clubs all have strict geographical limitations. You can only apply for one team based on where you live. Let's take U15 since that's what my kid is in. If you're cut from your club's U15AAA team, you can seek a release and go try out for another club's AAA team. That other club has to give you at least one tryout - but their team might already be basically formed. And you can only try out for one other AAA team, so pick where you go carefully.

When you're cut from U15AAA, you go to your club's AA team and try out there. AA tryouts start slightly later, but again depending on how far you went in AAA tryouts those AA teams might be part-way through forming as well.

If you're cut from your club's AA team, you can again seek a release and try out for a different club's AA (I think - I don't think I've seen anyone seek release twice).

And once you're cut from AA, then you're back to regular hockey. There you're given no special status based on trying out for AAA/AA, and it's not impossible for kids to be quite discouraged and slide quite a bit down to Tier 2-4.


This, incidentally, is supposedly one of the advantages of the unsanctioned leagues. You can try to build a stacked team by recruiting far and wide.

I am sure they have a reason, but I think that is b.s. If the kid is cut from his local AAA club, he should be free to tryout anywhere for another AAA club. Obviously, I do not know how often it is an issue, but a club could cut a kid from AAA and basically hold them hostage to only allow them to play for their AA team.

With USA hockey, there are some rules about moving clubs, but I don't have them memorized. There is something about a club only being allowed to take 2 players from another club. However, if the player tried out and was not offered a contract for their old club, they are not counted among the 2. But, there is also something where it doesnt apply if the kid is going up a level or age group or something like that. There is also some restriction on a head coach leaving to go to a new org, and not being allowed to take their whole team with them.

 

[BB79]

When I was a kid we played purely for fun. What a strange concept that seems today.

 

[Hockey Know it all]

Growing up and playing hockey in Michigan(i am a 92 birth year). I have seen the BS first hand.

I played A and AA up until my squirt years then decided to try out for AAA Belle Tire.

I’m not saying I was the best on the ice or worse on the ice but after the 4 day tryout, I came away thinking I had a great chance at making it. Come to find out that even at the start of the tryouts, they pretty much had their team set in stone.

It was then that my mom and I knew how bad it was then.

We were lower/middle class. But I did a lot of the power skating camps and stuff in Novi and Farmington Hills. I was prepped for the next jump and just never got a fair shot.

Youth hockey has always been about politics.

 

[swoopster]

I posted this in a past thread on his topic, I grew up in Boston playing hockey in the 60's and early 70's. As an inner city kid we grew up poor and hockey was played in parks that the city froze. Then came the Bobby Orr Bruins era and hockey in the city qrew expotentially thanks to numerous MDC rinks being built across the city and its neighborhoods. Heaven... $20 an hour. We would collect money from our parents and off we went. At that time there were major public school powerhouses in the city, South Boston, Charlestown, Boston Tech and Latin to name a few.

I was invited to enroll in a Catholic School that featured hockey. We were good and often were invited to Private Ivy League Prep schools to play. The awakening!

They ALL had their own rink on a campus that I couldn't believe. These schools were the grooming ground of the elite rich and In New England alone they were quietly everywhere. These kids had money and access to the best Ivy League hockey and education, and the closed summer camps that went with it. My school car pooled or took public transportation to an MDC rink to practice at 7AM or after 8PM. But oh heck did we enjoy being these rich kids. Yet, my alma matrer also put many players in the pro's and won numerous state titles.

Some of the prep schools were Belmont hill, St Sebastians, Andover Academy and Exeter...but I could go on. All have put players in the pro's.

OK, a long diatribe. These schools back then were the equivilent in many cases to todays hockey academys. A parent would typically shell $10-20 thousand dollars to have their son play there (sorry, no girls teams in my day ).

So my point is... hockey to an extent has always been elite, yet we also excelled with less. Its all in the heart and desire...but today...

 

[oldunclehue]

So my point is... hockey to an extent has always been elite, yet we also excelled with less. Its all in the heart and desire.

I do agree with this over time...but as with most sports things are getting worse. My main issue is the extras now required to be considered as an elite player.

My experience was a just above the poverty line kid growing up in Winnipeg. We struggled and I played for a Minor Hockey organization that only had outdoor rinks. We were in the poor area of the city and most players had old hand me down equipment and families had one old used vehicle. I remember going to our local small sports store to the used equipment section to find skates and my dad having to negotiate the price down or I'd have to curl my toes to fit my brothers old skates. I recall a friend of mine who made it to Junior A using skates with no toes and tube blade holders until we were 13.

Once in AAA at u15 I got my first new pair of skates ever. We had to fundraise all year just to afford to play and find sponsors to make it work. A few of us that grew up together made the jump to Junior A and then I played Major Junior for a bit.

Spring hockey was not a thing, academies didn't exist. There was a divide with the rich teams and poor teams but other than equipment and extra practices and hockey camps in summer, most of the have kids didn't get a whole lot extra.

Now...the divide is painfully obvious at the minor hockey level. Kids who were in situations like me now a days don't exist past U13 hockey and don't have a sniff at making the AAA teams in their communities. Not because of the rich kids that have always been there, but because its not only them going to skills skates, camps, academy lessons, personal trainers etc etc. It's now rich and middle class people doing all the extra stuff.

Like I said, its been happening for a long time....but I feel like in the last 5 years it has become more and more obvious as to if you have a talented hockey player you need money or be willing to go in to debt in hopes of them playing at the highest level for their age. It's the way of the world now, cut throat to get to success.

We have a family in our region with three top players in their age groups in the Province. They are great little hockey players. But to stay at that level and develop....the family drives 3 hours each way every second weekend to put them in skills training. They play on multiple spring and summer teams, they have a private skills coach and skating coach. Luckily they own a business and can make it work. But if they didn't do this...they would fall behind.

Like I said....you won't really ever see a have not kid make it to the NHL ever again, and parents and kids are well aware of this. In Canada our development system is broken and unfair. But nothing I can do to change that.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Like I said....you won't really ever see a have not kid make it to the NHL ever again, and parents and kids are well aware of this. In Canada our development system is broken and unfair. But nothing I can do to change that.

It sucks... but maybe the have-not kid can be steered to football, soccer, basketball... sports like that. No sport is going to be perfectly egalitarian, but at least those ones offer a more even playing field than hockey.

If it's any consolation, the vast majority of those well heeled families pouring thousands of dollars into their kids' hockey development will never get a sniff of the pros.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It sucks... but maybe the have-not kid can be steered to football, soccer, basketball... sports like that. No sport is going to be perfectly egalitarian, but at least those ones offer a more even playing field than hockey.

If it's any consolation, the vast majority of those well heeled families pouring thousands of dollars into their kids' hockey development will never get a sniff of the pros.

Soccer and basketball are hardly egalitarian - there's all kinds of extra training that goes into it as well. In my family's brief foray into high level soccer it was even worse than hockey.

Football - well yes, you can find stories of some kid who has never played walking on and succeeding. But those are typically in more non-skilled positions where it's just purely about physicality. If you want to be a QB you're going to be doing a lot of extra training...

 

[jetsmooseice]

Soccer and basketball are hardly egalitarian - there's all kinds of extra training that goes into it as well. In my family's brief foray into high level soccer it was even worse than hockey.

Football - well yes, you can find stories of some kid who has never played walking on and succeeding. But those are typically in more non-skilled positions where it's just purely about physicality. If you want to be a QB you're going to be doing a lot of extra training...

Not a season goes by where I don't read about a Blue Bombers player who overcame a hardscrabble upbringing to achieve a football career. And that's not just the Americans from depressed rust-belt towns or south central LA. That includes local Winnipeg guys who went on to become stars like RBs Andrew Harris and Brady Oliveira, who were raised by single moms with little money. Similar situations in basketball.

I get that there is extra training that goes into everything. But in certain sports it's easier for raw athleticism to shine than it is for heavily technique-based sports where intense coaching is essential. Take golf or tennis, for instance... you could be a top 0.1% elite athlete and without a shit-ton of coaching and instruction from an early age you aren't going anywhere. Hockey is more towards that end of the spectrum.

 

[Slats432]

I am sure they have a reason, but I think that is b.s. If the kid is cut from his local AAA club, he should be free to tryout anywhere for another AAA club. Obviously, I do not know how often it is an issue, but a club could cut a kid from AAA and basically hold them hostage to only allow them to play for their AA team.

With USA hockey, there are some rules about moving clubs, but I don't have them memorized. There is something about a club only being allowed to take 2 players from another club. However, if the player tried out and was not offered a contract for their old club, they are not counted among the 2. But, there is also something where it doesnt apply if the kid is going up a level or age group or something like that. There is also some restriction on a head coach leaving to go to a new org, and not being allowed to take their whole team with them.

There is no player held hostage. If a player gets cut from AAA, they are free to tryout at another club. No team can say, we are not going to let you try out elsewhere. Joe is right. The process is not perfect for guys who get cut.

The example I saw this year, is I had players that were cut from U17AAA or didn't even try out there. They come to me at u16AA and have a great tryout. They hang around for a long time. By the time they get sent down from me, most teams are near the end of their process and they get one skate with someone else, which makes it tough to beat out a kid that has been in another team's process for as much as 2 weeks. So in situations like that, a kid good enough to play on another team has some obvious baggage or the other player is just not noticeably better than kids in the other zone.

At the Federation level (Non-club, or in effect community hockey), they go down to their zone which is geographical. Again, because they are going down late in the process the federation teams have been almost formulated so a player that could very well be Tier 1, right beneath elite, ends up in Tier 3 or 4. It is unfortunate but happens ever year. I had over 40 kids trying out for my team this year.

 

[Yukon Joe]

At the Federation level (Non-club, or in effect community hockey), they go down to their zone which is geographical. Again, because they are going down late in the process the federation teams have been almost formulated so a player that could very well be Tier 1, right beneath elite, ends up in Tier 3 or 4. It is unfortunate but happens ever year. I had over 40 kids trying out for my team this year.

Edit: I wrote out a story about a kid who tried out for AA, wound up at a very low tier (undeservedly so) but realized hockey is small enough it was probably identifiable, and not my story to tell.

Having gone through the process you can understand at each step why things happen they way they do - but it can still wind up being a terrible outcome.

 

[Slats432]

Edit: I wrote out a story about a kid who tried out for AA, wound up at a very low tier (undeservedly so) but realized hockey is small enough it was probably identifiable, and not my story to tell.

Having gone through the process you can understand at each step why things happen they way they do - but it can still wind up being a terrible outcome.

I had one of my guys this year a late cut. Borderline missed my team. Got shuffled down a few tiers and quit hockey almost immediately.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I had one of my guys this year a late cut. Borderline missed my team. Got shuffled down a few tiers and quit hockey almost immediately.

I know in our federation (so after you don't make AAA/AA) Tiering is initially based off of a series of timed skates. It can happen that a kid gets cut on a Friday night, then has to do those skates Saturday morning and they're just not in a good headspace for it. It's causes issues in the past.

But otherwise that same club - even after teams were formed this year things had gone horribly wrong, so they had a ton of movement two weeks later just to re-shuffle things. Don't tell me they can't find room for a borderline U16AA kid on a team fitting his ability...

 

[Slats432]

I know in our federation (so after you don't make AAA/AA) Tiering is initially based off of a series of timed skates. It can happen that a kid gets cut on a Friday night, then has to do those skates Saturday morning and they're just not in a good headspace for it. It's causes issues in the past.

But otherwise that same club - even after teams were formed this year things had gone horribly wrong, so they had a ton of movement two weeks later just to re-shuffle things. Don't tell me they can't find room for a borderline U16AA kid on a team fitting his ability...

The top part is what it is. We played two games yesterday in a tournament of high level hockey with 2.5 hours in between. Either you perform or you don't.

The second part, is that late cuts are in a difficult spot. They do their 2nd tryout at U16AA, and feel that at that point the only possible result is Tier 1. When it doesn't happen, they decide that their future in hockey is done so they decide to move on. There were several other late cuts that were shuffled throughout the top 4 tiers. They are still playing.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The top part is what it is. We played two games yesterday in a tournament of high level hockey with 2.5 hours in between. Either you perform or you don't.

The second part, is that late cuts are in a difficult spot. They do their 2nd tryout at U16AA, and feel that at that point the only possible result is Tier 1. When it doesn't happen, they decide that their future in hockey is done so they decide to move on. There were several other late cuts that were shuffled throughout the top 4 tiers. They are still playing.

Tryouts are a bit different than a tournament game. You have a bad game - well you have a bad game. You don't do as well in the tournament, then you move on.

Evaluations are tough because if you have a bad evaluation that's going to impact your entire season.

U16AA - if a kid wants to go with a "AA or bust" attitude, that's their right I guess. And just because you're a late cut doesn't guarantee you a spot in Tier 1 (which is pretty competitive hockey - I've seen a couple of U15 Tier 1 games). Just feel bad for a kid who was competitive in AA tryouts somehow winding up in Tier 5.

 

[Slats432]

Tryouts are a bit different than a tournament game. You have a bad game - well you have a bad game. You don't do as well in the tournament, then you move on.

Evaluations are tough because if you have a bad evaluation that's going to impact your entire season.

U16AA - if a kid wants to go with a "AA or bust" attitude, that's their right I guess. And just because you're a late cut doesn't guarantee you a spot in Tier 1 (which is pretty competitive hockey - I've seen a couple of U15 Tier 1 games). Just feel bad for a kid who was competitive in AA tryouts somehow winding up in Tier 5.

What I am saying is regardless of the situation it is up to the player to perform. Don't cry in your cornflakes because you got cut yesterday. My son got cut from Peewee AA and ended up in Tier 4. That didn't stop him from making JR A.

 

[patnyrnyg]

There is no player held hostage. If a player gets cut from AAA, they are free to tryout at another club. No team can say, we are not going to let you try out elsewhere. Joe is right. The process is not perfect for guys who get cut.

The example I saw this year, is I had players that were cut from U17AAA or didn't even try out there. They come to me at u16AA and have a great tryout. They hang around for a long time. By the time they get sent down from me, most teams are near the end of their process and they get one skate with someone else, which makes it tough to beat out a kid that has been in another team's process for as much as 2 weeks. So in situations like that, a kid good enough to play on another team has some obvious baggage or the other player is just not noticeably better than kids in the other zone.

At the Federation level (Non-club, or in effect community hockey), they go down to their zone which is geographical. Again, because they are going down late in the process the federation teams have been almost formulated so a player that could very well be Tier 1, right beneath elite, ends up in Tier 3 or 4. It is unfortunate but happens ever year. I had over 40 kids trying out for my team this year.

The post to which I responded stated if the player gets cut from AAA he can request a release from his club to tryout elsewhere. To me, that sounds like the club can refuse to grant the release, unless I am misinterpreting.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The post to which I responded stated if the player gets cut from AAA he can request a release from his club to tryout elsewhere. To me, that sounds like the club can refuse to grant the release, unless I am misinterpreting.

I believe that is technically true, although I haven't heard of that happening in practice.

I suppose a club could go "Look - there's no room for you on our AAA team, but we really really want you on the AA team - and as a first year player there's probably a spot for you on the AAA team next year".


Actually the one thing I'm unclear on - if a kid gets release, but gets picked up by another club - when it comes time for next year does the kid go back to their home club, or do they stay with the club that picked them up? Because I can see arguments either way.

 

[WarriorofTime]

While the headline is sensationalist, interesting video that dives into some of these topics.

 

[Slats432]

I believe that is technically true, although I haven't heard of that happening in practice.

I suppose a club could go "Look - there's no room for you on our AAA team, but we really really want you on the AA team - and as a first year player there's probably a spot for you on the AAA team next year".


Actually the one thing I'm unclear on - if a kid gets release, but gets picked up by another club - when it comes time for next year does the kid go back to their home club, or do they stay with the club that picked them up? Because I can see arguments either way.

Incorrect. It is not technically true. These are the rules for SSAC. They are the same for every age group. No team says "No you can't try out for another club when we release you." It does happen that the other clubs have no need for players. Coaches will do some due dilligence on the player, look for some history. If they are worth having for a skate, they will. My son's U18AAA in 2018-19 had three imports on it.

Option 1) U18 AA Elite Player Movement
• 2nd tryout for another U18 AA club. There are no 3rd tryouts.
• Players have no more than 7 days to arrange a 2nd tryout and roster
• Edmonton players are not eligible for a 2nd tryout outside of Edmonton
a) Request Player Movement – email the registrar to request electronic AA Notification-of-Tryout form to be submitted for the player
b) Player/parent will receive the automated form link from AA Council to have the parent sign for the NTO forms
c) Contact U18 AA City Category Director for club assignment
d) Upon assignment of 2nd tryout by City Category Director, please contact 2nd tryout club for next ice time and provide the signed agreement to the club
Option 2) U18 Federation Team
• Register online with your Federation club – SWZ Hockey or KC Hockey
• Contact Federation U18 Directors/Registrar for tryouts
• Federation club to place player on U18 Federation team

The release from club the year after is not a hard and fast rule as far as I know. I know kids that have been released and made another club, and the player asks to stay the following year, and it is granted. I don't know of any instances where it has been denied.

I had three of my players that currently are on my u16AA team that had a 2nd U17AAA try out. I encouraged them to do what they thought was best, but if they came to me, they would have a great year. They all did, and all are.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Thanks for clarifying @Slats432

 

[Slats432]

Thanks for clarifying @Slats432

FYI, I edited my post a couple times so make sure you read after I post this for the most updated post.

 

[golfortennis1]

There is no player held hostage. If a player gets cut from AAA, they are free to tryout at another club. No team can say, we are not going to let you try out elsewhere. Joe is right. The process is not perfect for guys who get cut.

The example I saw this year, is I had players that were cut from U17AAA or didn't even try out there. They come to me at u16AA and have a great tryout. They hang around for a long time. By the time they get sent down from me, most teams are near the end of their process and they get one skate with someone else, which makes it tough to beat out a kid that has been in another team's process for as much as 2 weeks. So in situations like that, a kid good enough to play on another team has some obvious baggage or the other player is just not noticeably better than kids in the other zone.

At the Federation level (Non-club, or in effect community hockey), they go down to their zone which is geographical. Again, because they are going down late in the process the federation teams have been almost formulated so a player that could very well be Tier 1, right beneath elite, ends up in Tier 3 or 4. It is unfortunate but happens ever year. I had over 40 kids trying out for my team this year.

This may have changed given this happened about 20 years ago. There is a Junior B league in Southwestern Ontario. One of the ladies I worked with at the time had a son who was 16, and had been drafted in a middle round by an OHL team. Because of where he grew up and played his minor hockey, he was "property" of a specific team. As training camp was approaching, they kept stringing him along about whether or not they would bring him to camp. There were a couple of other teams talking to him, inquiring as to his availability, but he couldn't do anything without permission. Turns out, this team was notorious for bringing over kids from Michigan, who had no restrictions, but how also didn't commit very early, and so the team was holding spots open "in case." I'm not sure 100% what ended up causing it, but he was finally allowed to go skate with another team, which I believe he made.

I agree with @patnyrnyg if a kid can get ice time with another team, he should not be SOL because he either didn't "choose" properly, or because of some kind of geographic restriction. If the top 12 forwards in Toronto are miles better than anyone in Oshawa, why shouldn't the 13th be able to skate for Oshawa?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Even if you aren’t screwed over by institutionalized rules, you’ll get screwed over by just logistics. There’s no waivers system for minor hockey players. Very important to complete your due diligence ahead of time. There’s a reason teams feel largely “pre-selected” before anyone steps on the ice.

 

[Slats432]

This may have changed given this happened about 20 years ago. There is a Junior B league in Southwestern Ontario. One of the ladies I worked with at the time had a son who was 16, and had been drafted in a middle round by an OHL team. Because of where he grew up and played his minor hockey, he was "property" of a specific team. As training camp was approaching, they kept stringing him along about whether or not they would bring him to camp. There were a couple of other teams talking to him, inquiring as to his availability, but he couldn't do anything without permission. Turns out, this team was notorious for bringing over kids from Michigan, who had no restrictions, but how also didn't commit very early, and so the team was holding spots open "in case." I'm not sure 100% what ended up causing it, but he was finally allowed to go skate with another team, which I believe he made.

I agree with @patnyrnyg if a kid can get ice time with another team, he should not be SOL because he either didn't "choose" properly, or because of some kind of geographic restriction. If the top 12 forwards in Toronto are miles better than anyone in Oshawa, why shouldn't the 13th be able to skate for Oshawa?

I can't comment on Ontario or how things were 20 years ago. I do know from a friend that it is still a zoo down there.