Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[oldunclehue]

I am at my wits end with how much the commercialization of kids hockey has ruined the sport in Canada for the average family/kid and how parents are willing to do ANYTHING to give their kids some form of advancement.

Background: I played QMJHL hockey and had offers to go minor pro but decided to pursue my current career (no regrets). But as a parent and coach in our minor hockey system I am blown away at what the "business" of kids hockey is doing to this sport for kids and families. I have coached minor hockey for the past 9 years and up until last year enjoyed it a ton. But the desperation of parents has ruined the environment for me and many others.

1. I live in a rural city area in western Canada. We have a strong minor hockey system but are far away from larger city centers and the "Hockey Academys" are taking our best players out of the system and parents are willing to re-mortgage homes, taken on second jobs and drained savings to chase their kids "dreams".

2. Our AAA program is at risk of folding because 7 of the top players have left for Hockey Academies at a cost of $30,000 plus. The program has had success and has a great coaching staff (not me). But yet all of these kids pay "advisors" who sell the academy life to the parents and now its at risk of ruining the program for many many others.

3. Hockey camps/skills coaches: - Many kids don't have a summer or time away from the rink anymore. Many parents are willing to pay thousands of dollars upon thousands to take their kids to camps and hire skills coach (at the age of 10).

4. 10-11 year olds having a trainer, nutritionist, skating coach and advisor is WILD but happening all over the place. If you have the money these people will take it and sell you a story of how much your KID is going to be the best thing since Crosby.

Parents willing to step on anyone friend or foe to try and get their kid to a certain level is AMAZING as well.

The worst has to be parents that have never played a competitive level of the sport. They have ruined the rink atmosphere and its sickening.

Anyone else worried about where our sport is going in Canada? With multiple hockey academies popping up anywhere and everywhere, commercial (non-sanctioned) AAA leagues in many Provinces and the copious amounts of "skills" coaches all offering extra this and that....the average family can't keep up and just end up leaving the sport. It's sad. But I predict we won't see a middle income or lower kid make it anymore.

Sad.

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[MeHateHe]

Yeah.

A lot of parents out there with dollar signs in their eyes thinking their kid is going to be the next one. Delusion may not be a strong enough word for it, when you think about it. So everyone who has an NCCP Level 1 and a business license is working to exploit that.

It's worse in the small towns. My home town in Alberta has provincial championship banners in the rink, but this year, they're begging for kids to register just so they can have teams in the U15 and U18 divisions. Most of the best players are either transferring to larger towns or are heading off to academies.

And you didn't even mention the pay-to-play junior leagues that are popping up, taking money to play off the dreams of kids who will never, ever, be good enough to play a quality junior league.

It's not going to get better in the short run. Top players are sticking with their home associations. Heck, they're running off to elite prep schools in the US for heaven's sake. And it works for the elite players. It doesn't work for the majority, however, and I don't think it works for the classic late bloomers.

I suppose there's been an element of this forever. Notre Dame in Saskatchewan has been a hockey school for generations. But the academy model - check out the huge (and growing) list of teams playing under the CSSHL banner this year - has just expanded so much in the last five years.

What's this going to look like in 10 years? I'm glad I don't have a run-of-the-mill kid who just wants to whack a puck around two hours a week.

 

[puckpilot]

I've watched my nephew go through the system, and I shake my head at the amount of money some parents dump into clinics, academies etc. I remember sitting and watching a skating clinic, and thinking to myself, no coach is taking kids aside and giving any feedback. It was just a money factory where the kids are just running through cones for an hour. The net result of that clinic could have been had by watching a 10 minute youtube video and paying two bucks for a toonie skate.

I'm hoping it's a fad that eventually peters out. Before a certain age, how much is an academy really going to help? IMHO, talent will rise to the top regardless of where they're playing. Hopefully people smarten up eventually and see what they're really being sold. But when I see what's going on around me, the voice of the cynic in me gets pretty loud.

 

[Ducks4Cup]

Watching videos of 10 year mcdavid on a balance board, stick handling like a pro, has to have every parent thinking if their kid practices enough they’ll be the next phenom.

 

[oldunclehue]

I've watched my nephew go through the system, and I shake my head at the amount of money some parents dump into clinics, academies etc. I remember sitting and watching a skating clinic, and thinking to myself, no coach is taking kids aside and giving any feedback. It was just a money factory where the kids are just running through cones for an hour. The net result of that clinic could have been had by watching a 10 minute youtube video and paying two bucks for a toonie skate.

I'm hoping it's a fad that eventually peters out. Before a certain age, how much is an academy really going to help? IMHO, talent will rise to the top regardless of where they're playing. Hopefully people smarten up eventually and see what they're really being sold. But when I see what's going on around me, the voice of the cynic in me gets pretty loud.

I don't think they will. Its a dog eat dog world out there, parents will ruin friendships, relationships, hockey programs all in the name of getting their kid to something the parent could never of achieved.

In part I blame hockey Canada and the provincial programs. We have fallen so far behind in development at the minor levels people have to seek out other opportunities. I can see why so many programs end up with some random dad with no hockey skill coaching teams. People who have played the sport don't want the hassle of telling Jimmy's dad to ease up on parent coaching from the crowd.

Sad world we live in for this sport. Very Very soon those who are not elite rich will not be able to make it anywhere in this sport.

 

[swoopster]

You started a thread similar to this in October 2022. I was poster # 9. I spoke of my experiences on this subject on the US side. It has only gotten worse...sad.
The thread was "Minor hockey and unreal expectations"

 

[Yukon Joe]

I am at my wits end with how much the commercialization of kids hockey has ruined the sport in Canada for the average family/kid and how parents are willing to do ANYTHING to give their kids some form of advancement.

Anyone else worried about where our sport is going in Canada? With multiple hockey academies popping up anywhere and everywhere, commercial (non-sanctioned) AAA leagues in many Provinces and the copious amounts of "skills" coaches all offering extra this and that....the average family can't keep up and just end up leaving the sport. It's sad. But I predict we won't see a middle income or lower kid make it anymore.

Sad.

OK, so I've been a parent in minor hockey going onto 8 years now. My oldest son has gone from Timbits to U15 tryouts. And I have thoughts.

There absolutely is a ton of commercialization in hockey. Tons of people with their hand out. Lots of parents are willing to pay more to give their kid an edge - from hockey academies, to power skating, to dryland training, to spring and summer hockey - you name it.

But the thing is - you don't have to do any of it.

If you just want to go out and play hockey you can go and sign up with your local club and federation. The cost isn't super cheap, but it's fairly reasonable for a middle class family. You can go out and get second hand equipment, get a less-expensive stick, and you're good to go.

Will that mean you're at a disadvantage when you're trying out for AAA anything? Yes it does! But is that a problem? Your kid can still go and play hockey, get all the health and self-esteem benefits from playing the game. They can go out and play with their buddies and have just as much fun playing at Tier 4 as they will at AA - in fact they might have more fun in Tier 4 because they don't have as much pressure on them.

The commercialization of hockey (which is very real) is only a problem if you figure any kid who plays should have an equal chance at making it to the NHL. But I think that ship has sailed a long time ago.

My family we try to pick a middle path. We do some of the extras, but certainly not as much as others do. But every family has to chose for themselves how to navigate the world of minor hockey.

 

[Slats432]

From the coaching side, I can tell in tryouts who is working hard in the summer and who is not. Yes, the academies make things into a financial competitive issue but doing camps, training etc is necessary to get to the elite levels. I see tier kids jumping above AAA kids in skates due to commitment and hard work.

It is necessary to navigate the camps and elite hockey, but it can be done. And there are no dad coaches in elite hockey.

 

[oldunclehue]

OK, so I've been a parent in minor hockey going onto 8 years now. My oldest son has gone from Timbits to U15 tryouts. And I have thoughts.

There absolutely is a ton of commercialization in hockey. Tons of people with their hand out. Lots of parents are willing to pay more to give their kid an edge - from hockey academies, to power skating, to dryland training, to spring and summer hockey - you name it.

But the thing is - you don't have to do any of it.

If you just want to go out and play hockey you can go and sign up with your local club and federation. The cost isn't super cheap, but it's fairly reasonable for a middle class family. You can go out and get second hand equipment, get a less-expensive stick, and you're good to go.

Will that mean you're at a disadvantage when you're trying out for AAA anything? Yes it does! But is that a problem? Your kid can still go and play hockey, get all the health and self-esteem benefits from playing the game. They can go out and play with their buddies and have just as much fun playing at Tier 4 as they will at AA - in fact they might have more fun in Tier 4 because they don't have as much pressure on them.

The commercialization of hockey (which is very real) is only a problem if you figure any kid who plays should have an equal chance at making it to the NHL. But I think that ship has sailed a long time ago.

My family we try to pick a middle path. We do some of the extras, but certainly not as much as others do. But every family has to chose for themselves how to navigate the world of minor hockey.

Oh I agree, we are a middle of the road family too, my son gets opportunity to do some extra stuff here and there. The reality here is that our AAA program will likely fold in the next year or so due to hockey academies taking the top kids from our area. Then the trickle down effect happens. The kids who should be playing AAA are now going to play Highschool, taking spots from kids on the Highschool team who then have nowhere to play. We don't have U18 minor hockey in the rural area around here and if not highschool then your hockey is done here.

It's the trickle down I fear, kids who don't have the ability to pay to get that edge will just be forced to hang them up. All because our top players and their parents are sold the academy life for $35,000 plus a year.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

I agree with u that it’s hands in our pockets but a slightly different angle. All sports are commercialized now.

I think the associations take themselves way too seriously. Like they bought into the mantra that sports builds character and they have an important role in that.

They want parents who pay and shut up. The vast majority of parents are not the bad apples, they are just regular people.

I remember being handed a book of raffle tickets and told to write a cheque for $2,000. My job was to recover that by selling raffles.

Pardon me? What was the $2,000 I already paid for? This was tier 7!

Why are kids on the ice Friday night and every long weekend?

I always respects whatever the coach decided was right for the level of play and I never saw one do anything worth getting upset over. I did see one overzealous parent. One. In 10 years. Yet we have to take a Sports Alberta parenting test before our kids rw allowed on the ice. Like we are the problem.

Why are kids at any level being asked to show up in a suit and tie?

Frankly, the minor hockey associations need to stop thinking they are better than the parents who even if they never played at any level.

They are volunteers who deserve respect and support but I found the minor hockey people to be cliquey & arrogant about their importance.

And always hands in our pockets.

 

[Pez68]

I am at my wits end with how much the commercialization of kids hockey has ruined the sport in Canada for the average family/kid and how parents are willing to do ANYTHING to give their kids some form of advancement.

Background: I played QMJHL hockey and had offers to go minor pro but decided to pursue my current career (no regrets). But as a parent and coach in our minor hockey system I am blown away at what the "business" of kids hockey is doing to this sport for kids and families. I have coached minor hockey for the past 9 years and up until last year enjoyed it a ton. But the desperation of parents has ruined the environment for me and many others.

1. I live in a rural city area in western Canada. We have a strong minor hockey system but are far away from larger city centers and the "Hockey Academys" are taking our best players out of the system and parents are willing to re-mortgage homes, taken on second jobs and drained savings to chase their kids "dreams".

2. Our AAA program is at risk of folding because 7 of the top players have left for Hockey Academies at a cost of $30,000 plus. The program has had success and has a great coaching staff (not me). But yet all of these kids pay "advisors" who sell the academy life to the parents and now its at risk of ruining the program for many many others.

3. Hockey camps/skills coaches: - Many kids don't have a summer or time away from the rink anymore. Many parents are willing to pay thousands of dollars upon thousands to take their kids to camps and hire skills coach (at the age of 10).

4. 10-11 year olds having a trainer, nutritionist, skating coach and advisor is WILD but happening all over the place. If you have the money these people will take it and sell you a story of how much your KID is going to be the best thing since Crosby.

Parents willing to step on anyone friend or foe to try and get their kid to a certain level is AMAZING as well.

The worst has to be parents that have never played a competitive level of the sport. They have ruined the rink atmosphere and its sickening.

Anyone else worried about where our sport is going in Canada? With multiple hockey academies popping up anywhere and everywhere, commercial (non-sanctioned) AAA leagues in many Provinces and the copious amounts of "skills" coaches all offering extra this and that....the average family can't keep up and just end up leaving the sport. It's sad. But I predict we won't see a middle income or lower kid make it anymore.

Sad.

This problem is even worse in the United States. It's a joke, honestly. Greed has destroyed a lot of youth hockey. Including the atmosphere around the rink, and general comradery of the sport.

There are coaches around the Chicago area making over a million dollars a year, just running skills clinics, that naive and uninformed parents with too much money, eagerly gobble up...

There is still affordable hockey to play, but soooo many parents pull their kids out of programs they are a good fit for. All because youth hockey is FULL of used car salesmen, selling them on the dream of their kid playing pro. Just because they once upon a time coached some kid that made it to a high level. Or that coach had a cup of coffee in the pros. Way too many failed professional hockey players looking for a grift, because they wasted a decade+ of their lives, and aren't employable in any other way... Hockey Directors making six figures to sit on their ass and more or less do nothing.

There's only a handful of honest coaches/programs out there that will tell it to you straight, and they suffer because of their honesty.

 

[Yukon Joe]

This problem is even worse in the United States. It's a joke, honestly. Greed has destroyed a lot of youth hockey. Including the atmosphere around the rink, and general comradery of the sport.

There are coaches around the Chicago area making over a million dollars a year, just running skills clinics, that naive and uninformed parents with too much money, eagerly gobble up...

There is still affordable hockey to play, but soooo many parents pull their kids out of programs they are a good fit for. All because youth hockey is FULL of used car salesmen, selling them on the dream of their kid playing pro. Just because they once upon a time coached some kid that made it to a high level. Or that coach had a cup of coffee in the pros. Way too many failed professional hockey players looking for a grift, because they wasted a decade+ of their lives, and aren't employable in any other way... Hockey Directors making six figures to sit on their ass and more or less do nothing.

There's only a handful of honest coaches/programs out there that will tell it to you straight, and they suffer because of their honesty.

So I mean I don't know minor hockey in Chicago at all, but a couple things you say don't really match my own experience.

As I said, lots of people trying to make a buck off of hockey. But making a million dollars per year? Almost all the coaches I know who run hockey clinics are doing it as a side-hustle on top of their regular jobs, not as a way of making a living (nevermind making that kind of money). Same thing for team coaches.

As for "failed pro hockey players looking for a grift" - if a coach delivers on what they promise it's not a grift. I'm pretty sure nobody is promising "do this program and your kid will make the pros" - but rather "I'm going to take my pro training to help teach your kid". And I know a couple ex-NHLers who run hockey camps an the like, but there's nothing grifty about them.

 

[Pez68]

So I mean I don't know minor hockey in Chicago at all, but a couple things you say don't really match my own experience.

As I said, lots of people trying to make a buck off of hockey. But making a million dollars per year? Almost all the coaches I know who run hockey clinics are doing it as a side-hustle on top of their regular jobs, not as a way of making a living (nevermind making that kind of money). Same thing for team coaches.

As for "failed pro hockey players looking for a grift" - if a coach delivers on what they promise it's not a grift. I'm pretty sure nobody is promising "do this program and your kid will make the pros" - but rather "I'm going to take my pro training to help teach your kid". And I know a couple ex-NHLers who run hockey camps an the like, but there's nothing grifty about them.

There are a couple coaches affiliated with the top Tier 1 programs in Illinois running camps where they charge thousands of dollars per player. Add that to their normal coaching salaries and they get there.

When I say "failed professional hockey players" I'm talking about the guys that toiled around in the ECHL and lower leagues for a decade, chasing the dream. They aren't better directors or coaches than most of the other experienced people in youth hockey, but hockey parents are absolutely ENAMORED with guys who "played pros". So they get high paying jobs in youth hockey and drive the costs up.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

But the thing is - you don't have to do any of it.

in hindsight, I’m glad my parents didn’t pay for hockey camps after I did it for two years.

I won’t disclose the names - but I did two different private hockey camps for two summers. We did absolutely none of what they were offering with one-on-one sit downs, filming practices, or even outdoor dry land training. It was all ice work, then lunch, then a quick scrimmage and shootout and that was it. (Probably missing out on some more things…)

it was a neat experience, but I remember at the end of the second year it felt like a sham. Apparently college pros were going to come down at one point and they never did lol.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The commercialization of hockey (which is very real) is only a problem if you figure any kid who plays should have an equal chance at making it to the NHL.

It’s much bigger than that.

- For every hour of ice time overpaid-for by a commercialized travel team or clinic, that’s an hour taken away from beginner skaters, adult leagues, house league, stick-puck sessions, etc. It shrinks the community.

- There is no limit to the number of fly-by-night teams willing to take your money. If the A team is full, you can bet your ass there will be a B team next season. Then a C team then a D team. Give it enough time and there will be a B league, C league, D league. With time, this wipes out house hockey, pilfering talent and monopolizing ice time.

- These teams are the main reason you can no longer find cheap wood sticks or affordable skates. The profit margins on expensive equipment are much higher, and exclusive programs drive those sales in bulk, so the companies have simply stopped making cheap product. That hurts everyone except the wealthy families.

- This whole dynamic has become obnoxious for parents, as it the “advertising” now starts as early as 7 or 8 years old. Kids that age (and much older) don’t have the discernment to judge their place in that dynamic. They truly believe they can simply sign up for a team, that their parents can magically find the money somewhere, and they will be on the path to out-of-town trips and cool team gear and NHL scouts in the stands. It puts the parent in a position to have to tell an 8 year old that they don’t get to have those things, and their friends who are going that route won’t be on the team anymore. Even a child knows that means the NHL dream is already over. The alternative is to give in to the pressure and ruin yourself financially. Who wants to go through this as a family?

- Hockey was once built on an inclusive, working-man’s ethic. That is almost entirely dead, replaced with the ethic of being a rich kid’s playground. One of these is inspiring and appealing, the other is off-putting.

- Once a sport becomes known as economically exclusive, the majority of people won’t even attempt to get their kids involved in it. That’s an incredibly sad future, if not a present reality, for our game.

- Advancing players primarily based on economics rather than athletic talent is a surefire way to undermine the national program. This is already largely done, but that doesn’t make it OK or something we should encourage.

- The idea that everyone doesn’t have a shot at promotion should be noxious to us. If fair competition isn’t a core value, what are we doing here?


This dynamic is sucking the life out of the game at a grassroots level. It’s not as simple as “just don’t participate if you don’t like it”. For a lot of people that means dropping hockey altogether because of how shitty it is to have the community divided in this manner.

 

[Yukon Joe]

It’s much bigger than that.

- For every hour of ice time overpaid-for by a commercialized travel team or clinic, that’s an hour taken away from beginner skaters, adult leagues, house league, stick-puck sessions, etc. It shrinks the community.

- There is no limit to the number of fly-by-night teams willing to take your money. If the A team is full, you can bet your ass there will be a B team next season. Then a C team then a D team. Give it enough time and there will be a B league, C league, D league. With time, this wipes out house hockey, pilfering talent and monopolizing ice time.

- These teams are the main reason you can no longer find cheap wood sticks or affordable skates. The profit margins on expensive equipment are much higher, and exclusive programs drive those sales in bulk, so the companies have simply stopped making cheap product. That hurts everyone except the wealthy families.

- This whole dynamic has become obnoxious for parents, as it the “advertising” now starts as early as 7 or 8 years old. Kids that age (and much older) don’t have the discernment to judge their place in that dynamic. They truly believe they can simply sign up for a team, that their parents can magically find the money somewhere, and they will be on the path to out-of-town trips and cool team gear and NHL scouts in the stands. It puts the parent in a position to have to tell an 8 year old that they don’t get to have those things, and their friends who are going that route won’t be on the team anymore. Even a child knows that means the NHL dream is already over. The alternative is to give in to the pressure and ruin yourself financially. Who wants to go through this as a family?

- Hockey was once built on an inclusive, working-man’s ethic. That is almost entirely dead, replaced with the ethic of being a rich kid’s playground. One of these is inspiring and appealing, the other is off-putting.

- Once a sport becomes known as economically exclusive, the majority of people won’t even attempt to get their kids involved in it. That’s an incredibly sad future, if not a present reality, for our game.

- Advancing players primarily based on economics rather than athletic talent is a surefire way to undermine the national program. This is already largely done, but that doesn’t make it OK or something we should encourage.

- The idea that everyone doesn’t have a shot at promotion should be noxious to us. If fair competition isn’t a core value, what are we doing here?


This dynamic is sucking the life out of the game at a grassroots level. It’s not as simple as “just don’t participate if you don’t like it”. For a lot of people that means dropping hockey altogether because of how shitty it is to have the community divided in this manner.

Where to begin...

How about the simplest - you absolutely can still buy a wooden hockey stick.

general-plp-template

www.canadiantire.ca

The thing is - you probably don't want a wooden hockey stick. Wooden sticks suck. They are heavy and super stiff. That being said, you can buy a cheap composite stick for maybe twice the price, which sounds bad until you remember just how cheap a wooden stick is. So, paying $60 for a stick is pretty good - and certainly better than paying $300 for the latest and greatest stick.

Same thing for skates - you absolutely can buy pretty economical skates, or even better yet buying used skates.

"Saying no to the NHL dream". As a parent you'd better learn how to say no very early on or else being a parent is going to be a long and miserable experience. You constantly have to be able to set your kids expectations.

You know, all in all my kids live a pretty privileged existence. We have a household income that isn't the top 1%, but is maybe top 5%. But my kids have friends who are more privileged than us, and their kids have nicer stuff, go on nicer vacations, and have more options than us. On holidays they might go to Maui, while we went camping. That's just how life is.

More on the "NHL dream". Look, I'm in the middle of kids tryouts for U15 AAA/AA. I'm watching these kids, who are all phenomenal. I'm watching amazing kids get cut entirely. But I have to remind myself that of all these kids, over 100+ who tried out just at U15, maybe 1 of them will have a cup of coffee in the NHL.

The flip side is if you're a kid who is just genuinely gifted - they'll find you. In order to play pro hockey at a high level there just has to be some innate talent. No amount of hockey camps is going to take an average kid and turn them into the next McDavid.

"hockey was a working man's game". This goes well beyond hockey though. Yes, sports in general used to be working-class entertainment. If you were wealthy you didn't go to sports games, you went to the fine arts for your entertainment, such as the opera. But yes, over the decades sports have gone upscale. Tickets prices for all sports have skyrocketed.

Even in soccer, which is one of the most basic of sports, now has all kinds of training regimes for aspiring players, and has a lot of the same dynamics we're discussing in youth hockey.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Where to begin...

How about the simplest - you absolutely can still buy a wooden hockey stick.

general-plp-template

www.canadiantire.ca

The thing is - you probably don't want a wooden hockey stick. Wooden sticks suck. They are heavy and super stiff. That being said, you can buy a cheap composite stick for maybe twice the price, which sounds bad until you remember just how cheap a wooden stick is. So, paying $60 for a stick is pretty good - and certainly better than paying $300 for the latest and greatest stick.

$60 per stick is not a good price for children’s sporting equipment. It’s not like you just buy one stick and you’re good to go, the kid is going to run through a bunch of them per year and then multiply by however many kids you have. It’s hundreds a year for an ordinary family, just on sticks.

But the real question here is, why do wooden sticks “suck” for a child? Or more to the point, why does a kid need a 40-flex noodle that can whip pucks top shelf? Answer: because all else equal, the kid with the $300 NASA stick is going to out-perform the kid with the $30 twig. And once again we’re competing on the parent’s ability to spend money, not on the child’s ability to play hockey.

Only two groups of people win in this dynamic: the stick company, and parents who are willing to out-spend the competition. Everyone else loses.

Same thing for skates - you absolutely can buy pretty economical skates, or even better yet buying used skates.

Same answer as above. All else equal, the kid with the $800 skates is going to outperform the kid with the used discount skates. Companies know this and have made the sport an economic arms race.

"Saying no to the NHL dream". As a parent you'd better learn how to say no very early on or else being a parent is going to be a long and miserable experience. You constantly have to be able to set your kids expectations.

It’s not about an inability to say No to the kid, it’s that the No is demoralizing and unfair.

“Look Timmy, you’re the best player on the team and all, but you don’t live in the kind of neighborhood that produces NHL players. Your three friends over there, the ones with the $300 sticks and $800 skates, are going to move on to the elite team with the cross-country tournament trips. You get to keep playing house league, assuming there’s any ice time left over after the elite team is taken care of. Good thing you met them before they started year-round travel… they might be in the league someday and you can say you used to know an NHL’er! Now go make some different friends, because you’ll never see those kids again.”

Why in the blue hell would anyone put their kid in a position to have to learn such a fundamentally shitty lesson at such a young age? How exactly are they enriched by experiencing any of that? There are ample opportunities for them to legitimately work their way up through other activities on merit. What exactly is the selling point for hockey if this is how it works?

You know, all in all my kids live a pretty privileged existence. We have a household income that isn't the top 1%, but is maybe top 5%. But my kids have friends who are more privileged than us, and their kids have nicer stuff, go on nicer vacations, and have more options than us. On holidays they might go to Maui, while we went camping. That's just how life is.

More on the "NHL dream". Look, I'm in the middle of kids tryouts for U15 AAA/AA. I'm watching these kids, who are all phenomenal. I'm watching amazing kids get cut entirely. But I have to remind myself that of all these kids, over 100+ who tried out just at U15, maybe 1 of them will have a cup of coffee in the NHL.

The flip side is if you're a kid who is just genuinely gifted - they'll find you. In order to play pro hockey at a high level there just has to be some innate talent. No amount of hockey camps is going to take an average kid and turn them into the next McDavid.

Sorry, but the idea that scouts are finding kids with innate talent is bullshit. You know that, I know that, everyone here knows that. For every example of an NHL’er who came up in the working class, there are 100 counter examples who rode a gravy train of privilege until their peers couldn’t keep up. The proof is in the NHL itself, look at the profile of players who are getting drafted.

So then the question: if NHL is reliant on the junior development system, and the junior pipeline is being fed by an industry of commercial leagues and academies, what exactly is this sport supposed to be anymore? Wealthy families spending ungodly money so that their kids can get the best shot at a nine-figure income before age 40? What are we doing here? Why would anyone other than the 1% support this?

"hockey was a working man's game". This goes well beyond hockey though. Yes, sports in general used to be working-class entertainment. If you were wealthy you didn't go to sports games, you went to the fine arts for your entertainment, such as the opera. But yes, over the decades sports have gone upscale. Tickets prices for all sports have skyrocketed.

Even in soccer, which is one of the most basic of sports, now has all kinds of training regimes for aspiring players, and has a lot of the same dynamics we're discussing in youth hockey.

And again I ask, why would anyone support this system?

It’s one thing for the professional leagues to be bloodlessly commercial, drop all pretense of community representation and just suck consumers dry of every penny. That’s the nature of a professional business, it is what it is. But it’s an entirely different thing for this to happen at the amateur level, at your local rink, with your own child. If this is all there is to look forward to, there are some real questions to be asked about the value proposition of organized hockey as a whole.

 

[oldunclehue]

$60 per stick is not a good price for children’s sporting equipment. It’s not like you just buy one stick and you’re good to go, the kid is going to run through a bunch of them per year and then multiply by however many kids you have. It’s hundreds a year for an ordinary family, just on sticks.

But the real question here is, why do wooden sticks “suck” for a child? Or more to the point, why does a kid need a 40-flex noodle that can whip pucks top shelf? Answer: because all else equal, the kid with the $300 NASA stick is going to out-perform the kid with the $30 twig. And once again we’re competing on the parent’s ability to spend money, not on the child’s ability to play hockey.

Only two groups of people win in this dynamic: the stick company, and parents who are willing to out-spend the competition. Everyone else loses.




Same answer as above. All else equal, the kid with the $800 skates is going to outperform the kid with the used discount skates. Companies know this and have made the sport an economic arms race.




It’s not about an inability to say No to the kid, it’s that the No is demoralizing and unfair.

“Look Timmy, you’re the best player on the team and all, but you don’t live in the kind of neighborhood that produces NHL players. Your three friends over there, the ones with the $300 sticks and $800 skates, are going to move on to the elite team with the cross-country tournament trips. You get to keep playing house league, assuming there’s any ice time left over after the elite team is taken care of. Good thing you met them before they started year-round travel… they might be in the league someday and you can say you used to know an NHL’er! Now go make some different friends, because you’ll never see those kids again.”

Why in the blue hell would anyone put their kid in a position to have to learn such a fundamentally shitty lesson at such a young age? How exactly are they enriched by experiencing any of that? There are ample opportunities for them to legitimately work their way up through other activities on merit. What exactly is the selling point for hockey if this is how it works?




Sorry, but the idea that scouts are finding kids with innate talent is bullshit. You know that, I know that, everyone here knows that. For every example of an NHL’er who came up in the working class, there are 100 counter examples who rode a gravy train of privilege until their peers couldn’t keep up. The proof is in the NHL itself, look at the profile of players who are getting drafted.

So then the question: if NHL is reliant on the junior development system, and the junior pipeline is being fed by an industry of commercial leagues and academies, what exactly is this sport supposed to be anymore? Wealthy families spending ungodly money so that their kids can get the best shot at a nine-figure income before age 40? What are we doing here? Why would anyone other than the 1% support this?



And again I ask, why would anyone support this system?

It’s one thing for the professional leagues to be bloodlessly commercial, drop all pretense of community representation and just suck consumers dry of every penny. That’s the nature of a professional business, it is what it is. But it’s an entirely different thing for this to happen at the amateur level, at your local rink, with your own child. If this is all there is to look forward to, there are some real questions to be asked about the value proposition of organized hockey as a whole.

All this stuff is exactly how I feel. I look at this last weekend here, u15AAA tryouts. Not one kid who came from a middle class or lower class family made it to the exhibition series coming up. Every kid on the team has all the nice equipment, did multiple camps, had trainers and yes put the work in. But the kid whose parents recently got divorced and are battling over paying for things, didn’t get those camps/summer leagues, trainers and the fancy $400 stick or $1000 skates. He didn’t make it because he was behind due to being a kid and enjoying summer Vs parents spending thousands upon thousands to get better.

The current NHL prospects pedigree is all kids from rich backgrounds/ former NHLers kids and almost all are Academy kids.

I played high level hockey (major Junior) and came from a lower middle class family. There was hardly any high performance summer/spring or year round options and I wouldn’t have been able to afford it. But nowadays the kids like I was don’t make teams and end up just playing for fun or not playing at all.

The hockey development system is screwed in Canada for sure, it’s why we are seeing euro countries getting more and more draft picks every year!

 

[Yukon Joe]

Again where to begin...

SO look. I do actually do some coaching. I will tell you that when I coached 5-6 year olds my advice was to buy a flat wooden stick for your first stick. After awhile, even after a year, then go buy a slightly nicer composite, but buy the cheapest one you can.

Wooden sticks suck because they're really heavy. But beyond that, the difference between a cheap composite and an expensive composite is a matter of grams, so really not worth the difference for kids. So no - the kid with a $300 stick is NOT going to out-perform the kid with a $60 stick.

The same goes for skates. As long as the skates fit, and they're sharpened once in a while, the kid will be fine. More expensive skates will not make a difference.

(as an aside, I was helping with evaluations the last two weekends. One little girl comes out on the ice in goalie skates. I approach the parents afterwards - no the kid is not a goalie, they had no idea they were goalie skates. So yes, wearing completely the wrong kind of skate will make a difference, but that's about it)

As well - kids don't go through multiple sticks in a year. My own kids have never broken a stick on the ice - they just outgrow them.

The kid that doesn't live in a great neighbourhood - I don't know what to tell you. That kid also has aa worse shot at going to a good university, is probably going to earn less than his peers from a rich neighbourhood, and so many other outcomes well beyond hockey. That's just life.

"Poor kid getting scouted". I've said multiple times the rich kid has a better shot at an NHL career (as much of a longshot as that is anyways), but kids from poor backgrounds can make it. That's because all these hockey academies want to have the best team possible - if there's a truly gifted kid they'll find a way to get them on their team for free or reduced prices, Again that's what better coaches than I have told me - if your kid is really that good they'll find you (which makes me think my kid is good but not that good - nobody has ever reached out to us that way).

Wether you want to support minor hockey or not is entirely up to you. I'm just telling you why I do.

 

[x Tame Impala]

"If you want to get noticed you have to play on these elite teams" is the business model across baseball, soccer, and hockey. I'm not sure if basketball and football suffer from this too but i'd doubt it with the emphasis on collegiate sports those two have. It caters to these busy-body parents who IMHO have an unhealthy obsession with their kids playing high level sports. Hockey is simultaneously the most expensive and the most niche of them all so It's no wonder people have created what's essentially a business racket with these private leagues. I saw it personally with travel baseball, my cousin went through it with travel soccer.

I tried out for a travel team when I was 13, made the team, saw the travel schedule and that my whole life would be f***ing baseball and decided to play AAA park league and then varsity high school ball instead. My soccer playing cousin spent 3 or so years of his life traveling all over the country doing these tournaments that take all weekend and for what???

Speaking from experience I don't think most kids love playing THAT much, they're just used to it in their very young lives. It's an unhealthy amount of time for parents and that child to be focusing on a sport when in reality they have a laughably improbable chance of making it pro.

I didn't play hockey until I was 21 years old so only speaking of baseball here, but I played against a handful of guys that ended up getting drafted. You can tell immediately whether a kid has "it" or not. The best kid in your league is probably not even good enough to play at a D1 school, the best kid on your D1 team is probably not good enough to get drafted by the MLB, even if they do get drafted the chances of them fizzling out in A-ball before they even make it to AA or AAA is outrageously high. Finally even if they make it pro the chances of them sticking and becoming a millionaire from it are absurd. The best kid I ever played against played I think 9 games in the MLB.

It shouldn't be a goal for 999,999/100,000 parents to have their kids try and make it pro, it's usually crystal clear when a special kid comes around and the camps and leagues are in all likelihood superfluous. I think these parents are chumping out by devoting so much time and money for this and the fact that it's keeping regular kids out is the worst part.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Again where to begin...

SO look. I do actually do some coaching. I will tell you that when I coached 5-6 year olds my advice was to buy a flat wooden stick for your first stick. After awhile, even after a year, then go buy a slightly nicer composite, but buy the cheapest one you can.

Wooden sticks suck because they're really heavy. But beyond that, the difference between a cheap composite and an expensive composite is a matter of grams, so really not worth the difference for kids. So no - the kid with a $300 stick is NOT going to out-perform the kid with a $60 stick.

The same goes for skates. As long as the skates fit, and they're sharpened once in a while, the kid will be fine. More expensive skates will not make a difference.

(as an aside, I was helping with evaluations the last two weekends. One little girl comes out on the ice in goalie skates. I approach the parents afterwards - no the kid is not a goalie, they had no idea they were goalie skates. So yes, wearing completely the wrong kind of skate will make a difference, but that's about it)

Sure this stuff is irrelevant if you’re talking 6 year olds, that’s why I specified 7-8 where the racket kicks in. I did the exact same thing when my kids were 6, they got the flat bladed wooden stick so they would learn to take care of the puck properly. Then around 8 or so the entry-level $60 composites start showing up, and those kids are winging pucks over the net before they know what they’re doing.

Now you’re in an arms race. You’re really going to keep giving your kid wooden sticks so they’re the only one who can’t get flex on their shots? You’re really going to give them that pair of beat-up secondhand skates that fit someone else’s feet? That might fly for an 8 year old, but by 11 that’s just sidelining your kid competitively and socially. You think a kid who has wood sticks and secondhand skates is even making it through travel-team tryouts? Please. It’s not a charity, and that’s made clear from Day One.

At some point, this ends at “this isn’t fun anymore”. Not because the kid doesn’t like hockey, but because the kid doesn’t like being told that his wealthiest friends get privileges and unearned promotions while the rest get left behind. It’s an incredibly unhealthy dynamic for a child to be exposed to, and I would guess that the great majority of parents who sign that kid up at 6 have no idea what they’re getting into.

The kid that doesn't live in a great neighbourhood - I don't know what to tell you. That kid also has aa worse shot at going to a good university, is probably going to earn less than his peers from a rich neighbourhood, and so many other outcomes well beyond hockey. That's just life.

The difference is that you CAN come from a working-class neighborhood and get a decent education and go on to live a decent life, and this happens all the time. Does it happen with less frequency, or course. Should we all agree that these systematic inequities are not OK, absolutely. But nobody would say that people who grow up in working-class neighborhoods are absolutely excluded from being top level students, or absolutely excluded from a successful career.

In hockey, that exclusion is getting close to being completely absolute. Look at what others in this thread are relaying. At the grassroots level, it’s very clear who moves forward in this system and who gets excluded. It’s very clear that those who move forward are largely just being milked for cash until they hit a wall. That’s ****ed up and representative of the worst sort of “that’s life” dynamics. Which should not be anything we would ever say about a children’s activity.

"Poor kid getting scouted". I've said multiple times the rich kid has a better shot at an NHL career (as much of a longshot as that is anyways), but kids from poor backgrounds can make it. That's because all these hockey academies want to have the best team possible - if there's a truly gifted kid they'll find a way to get them on their team for free or reduced prices, Again that's what better coaches than I have told me - if your kid is really that good they'll find you (which makes me think my kid is good but not that good - nobody has ever reached out to us that way).

And again, there is little-to-no evidence of this actually happening. There’s like one player in the past decade who was noteworthy for having gone through minors on scholarship.

The idea of being advanced out of pure charity is a recruitment talking point to ease parents’ nerves about committing, nothing more. The fact that working-class prodigies never make it through the system tells you what the system is. The working-class kid might actually get that scholarship to play, but he’s not getting the year-round personal training, and he’s not getting the personal adviser to put his highlight reel in front of scouts, and his family doesn’t have the connections to get him noticed at the next level. Sooner or later he he falls behind on skills or opportunity, and that’s the end of it. And his coach gets to say “yeah, we have scholarships for kids who really deserve it” to the parent who’s nervous about committing.

Meanwhile the wealthy kids who also fall behind get recruited to the B-team with assurances that there will definitely be opportunities for them to catch up. Oh yeah, definitely. For sure. Swipe your card here to make your deposit.

Wether you want to support minor hockey or not is entirely up to you. I'm just telling you why I do.

I absolutely support minor hockey in the abstract. I don’t support this elite-exclusive youth hockey industry. I don’t honestly know why anyone would, even if they’re on the inside of it.

 

[x Tame Impala]

How does it work in Canada with getting drafted in the CHL? Do you essentially HAVE to play in these expensive private leagues to get a shot or does Canada have localized and mostly city/township subsidized leagues (Park League) for kids in that 12-14 age group?

There isn't really a CHL equivalent in the states for baseball AFAIK so i'm not sure how it works. Then when they're in the CHL are the parents off the hook financially? Meaning if they're drafted by the St. John's Sea Dogs or whatever that club will handle that player's coaching and development sufficiently enough to prepare them for the pro's. Or do they still have to obsessively be involved in expensive skills/training camps?

I just remember from Illinois baseball that you could work your way through local park leagues, make a high school team, and if you're really good and really lucky you had a shot of getting scouted by a college. It was a very natural and relatively inexpensive way of playing competitive sports.

 

[Mrfenn92]

"If you want to get noticed you have to play on these elite teams" is the business model across baseball, soccer, and hockey. I'm not sure if basketball and football suffer from this too but i'd doubt it with the emphasis on collegiate sports those two have. It caters to these busy-body parents who IMHO have an unhealthy obsession with their kids playing high level sports. Hockey is simultaneously the most expensive and the most niche of them all so It's no wonder people have created what's essentially a business racket with these private leagues. I saw it personally with travel baseball, my cousin went through it with travel soccer.

I tried out for a travel team when I was 13, made the team, saw the travel schedule and that my whole life would be f***ing baseball and decided to play AAA park league and then varsity high school ball instead. My soccer playing cousin spent 3 or so years of his life traveling all over the country doing these tournaments that take all weekend and for what???

Speaking from experience I don't think most kids love playing THAT much, they're just used to it in their very young lives. It's an unhealthy amount of time for parents and that child to be focusing on a sport when in reality they have a laughably improbable chance of making it pro.

I didn't play hockey until I was 21 years old so only speaking of baseball here, but I played against a handful of guys that ended up getting drafted. You can tell immediately whether a kid has "it" or not. The best kid in your league is probably not even good enough to play at a D1 school, the best kid on your D1 team is probably not good enough to get drafted by the MLB, even if they do get drafted the chances of them fizzling out in A-ball before they even make it to AA or AAA is outrageously high. Finally even if they make it pro the chances of them sticking and becoming a millionaire from it are absurd. The best kid I ever played against played I think 9 games in the MLB.

It shouldn't be a goal for 999,999/100,000 parents to have their kids try and make it pro, it's usually crystal clear when a special kid comes around and the camps and leagues are in all likelihood superfluous. I think these parents are chumping out by devoting so much time and money for this and the fact that it's keeping regular kids out is the worst part.

Basketball is their cost wise with aau teams and camps and such. Volleyball for both girls and boys is a club sport now. Schools want to know where you played and this is just for kids going into high school.
Football is going to get there soon enough.

 

[Yukon Joe]

How does it work in Canada with getting drafted in the CHL? Do you essentially HAVE to play in these expensive private leagues to get a shot or does Canada have localized and mostly city/township subsidized leagues (Park League) for kids in that 12-14 age group?

There isn't really a CHL equivalent in the states for baseball AFAIK so i'm not sure how it works. Then when they're in the CHL are the parents off the hook financially? Meaning if they're drafted by the St. John's Sea Dogs or whatever that club will handle that player's coaching and development sufficiently enough to prepare them for the pro's. Or do they still have to obsessively be involved in expensive skills/training camps?

I just remember from Illinois baseball that you could work your way through local park leagues, make a high school team, and if you're really good and really lucky you had a shot of getting scouted by a college. It was a very natural and relatively inexpensive way of playing competitive sports.

So I'll just run through WHL, since that's what I know.

As an aside, I do feel it's kind of unseemly that CHL teams are drafting 15-16 year olds. The idea that at age 16 you're going to go move 1000km away and live with some random billet family... I don't love it. But the system isn't going to change anytime soon.

So anyways, here's this year's WHL bantam draft results:

Western Hockey League

chl.ca

So by my count, in the top 10, 7 go to hockey academies.

But that doesn't tell the entire story either. So attending a hockey academy costs like $20-$30k per year. But at least they cover all the incidentals.

The kids not going to hockey academies are not attending some subsidized league. Their parents costs are probably $3-$5k - but you have fundraising on top of that, plus covering transportation and other incidentals.

 

[jetsmooseice]

What exactly is the goal that hockey parents have? To let their kids have fun and play hockey? Or to create a future pro? Because it appears to me you can do the former without shelling out massive amounts of money.

This thread is a bit like saying "Ferrari dealers are ruining driving" because their fast and flashy cars cost so much money and most of us can't afford them. But does it it really matter if you can't have a Ferrari if your Ford, Hyundai, BMW or whatever is nice and comfortable and comes at a cost you can live with? You don't have to buy the Ferrari just because it's there.