Commercialization ruining minor hockey

[Yukon Joe]

I don’t know of a single minor hockey club in Canada or U.S. that doesn’t do this. Typically it’s a page on the website showing all the NHL, AHL, CHL and NCAA D1 players that passed through. Basically “if they could do it, you can too”

Of course those guys probably would have gotten there regardless of where they had played as kids. Just as long as they had somewhere to play.

My kid's hockey club hands out a t-shirt to anyone who does one of their camps - it lists all the one-time members of the club who went on to play in the NHL on the back of the shirt.

It's a fairly impressive list - until you start to think about how many kids have played in the club over it's entire history - the odds now look a lot worse.

That being said, I would tend to disagree with the fatalistic notion that great players will just always get noticed. I mean it's probably true for the elite of the elite - Connor Bedard would probably be noticed no matter where he played - but you hear to many stories of full on professionals who had to really grind to try and make a name for themselves.

I was listening to former goalie Joaquin Gage on the radio on my way to work this morning. He's hardly a household name - he had less than 30 games in the NHL over a couple of different stints - but he played professionally for 15+ years in the NHL, AHL and Europe, which is a pretty respectable career. And he was talking about cold-calling GMs and sending out highlight videos just to try and get noticed

I've always followed the career of Dylan Cozens because I knew his parents when I lived in Yukon (it's the Yukon - everyone knows everyone). But he had to move down to BC as a kid precisely because he couldn't find quality opposition and wouldn't get noticed.

I know my kid's club probably has a better reputation than many for developing high-level hockey players in Edmonton - but then those hockey academies, although new, have an even better reputation.

So friends of ours are doctors. I believe they're going to put their kid into a hockey academy next year. Their kid is good - he won't be out of place - but he's nothing special and I don't think he's going anywhere in hockey. You know what though - if I had their kind of money I would probably put my kid in a hockey academy too. It has nothing to do with it being an "investment", but I know my kid kind of wishes he could go to one. (I don't have their kind of money though and barring an academy suddenly offering him a free ride he's not going to one)

So that being said - I do sometimes think that articles like this kind of just assume that parents are idiots. So yes - spending $20k to send your kid to a travel football program is pretty unlikely to "pay off". But do you think that most parents don't realize that? From all of the hockey parents I know (and I know a lot) there are a handful that are kind of delusional when it comes to their kid, but most of them know what the odds are. So maybe those football parents just think the chance to travel and play high level highschool football is worth it to give their kid that experience even if they wind up never being recruited into a D1 program.

 

[WarriorofTime]

My kid's hockey club hands out a t-shirt to anyone who does one of their camps - it lists all the one-time members of the club who went on to play in the NHL on the back of the shirt.

It's a fairly impressive list - until you start to think about how many kids have played in the club over it's entire history - the odds now look a lot worse.

That being said, I would tend to disagree with the fatalistic notion that great players will just always get noticed. I mean it's probably true for the elite of the elite - Connor Bedard would probably be noticed no matter where he played - but you hear to many stories of full on professionals who had to really grind to try and make a name for themselves.

I was listening to former goalie Joaquin Gage on the radio on my way to work this morning. He's hardly a household name - he had less than 30 games in the NHL over a couple of different stints - but he played professionally for 15+ years in the NHL, AHL and Europe, which is a pretty respectable career. And he was talking about cold-calling GMs and sending out highlight videos just to try and get noticed

I've always followed the career of Dylan Cozens because I knew his parents when I lived in Yukon (it's the Yukon - everyone knows everyone). But he had to move down to BC as a kid precisely because he couldn't find quality opposition and wouldn't get noticed.

I know my kid's club probably has a better reputation than many for developing high-level hockey players in Edmonton - but then those hockey academies, although new, have an even better reputation.

So friends of ours are doctors. I believe they're going to put their kid into a hockey academy next year. Their kid is good - he won't be out of place - but he's nothing special and I don't think he's going anywhere in hockey. You know what though - if I had their kind of money I would probably put my kid in a hockey academy too. It has nothing to do with it being an "investment", but I know my kid kind of wishes he could go to one. (I don't have their kind of money though and barring an academy suddenly offering him a free ride he's not going to one)

So that being said - I do sometimes think that articles like this kind of just assume that parents are idiots. So yes - spending $20k to send your kid to a travel football program is pretty unlikely to "pay off". But do you think that most parents don't realize that? From all of the hockey parents I know (and I know a lot) there are a handful that are kind of delusional when it comes to their kid, but most of them know what the odds are. So maybe those football parents just think the chance to travel and play high level highschool football is worth it to give their kid that experience even if they wind up never being recruited into a D1 program.

More so talking about the feedback loop that occurs with

Big name minor team recruits all the kids that are the best in the region, sometimes just for their aged 15 season when they've already been known to be the best player in the region. Kid does well, moves on, yada yada yada, they make the NHL.

Big name minor team says "look at us, we developed such and such player, yay, good job us"

Of course we have zero counter-factual involved, was that specific big name minor team a necessary for that kid to make the NHL? Or does the fact that he was a top kid going in and a top kid coming out, mean he would have been in the NHL regardless of the specific minor team he played on?

I guess we don't know for sure. That's why there's the feedback loop to begin with. You don't want to take any chances with your top kid, so you take the path other people have already taken just incase the correlation IS in fact the causation, because you don't get any do-overs, if you go play for the other club and the kid doesn't make NHL, you don't want to be left wondering "well if only we had gone to big name minor team...".

Next kid sees the same thing, and the cycle repeats.

 

[Yukon Joe]

More so talking about the feedback loop that occurs with

Big name minor team recruits all the kids that are the best in the region, sometimes just for their aged 15 season when they've already been known to be the best player in the region. Kid does well, moves on, yada yada yada, they make the NHL.

Big name minor team says "look at us, we developed such and such player, yay, good job us"

Of course we have zero counter-factual involved, was that specific big name minor team a necessary for that kid to make the NHL? Or does the fact that he was a top kid going in and a top kid coming out, mean he would have been in the NHL regardless of the specific minor team he played on?

I guess we don't know for sure. That's why there's the feedback loop to begin with. You don't want to take any chances with your top kid, so you take the path other people have already taken just incase the correlation IS in fact the causation, because you don't get any do-overs, if you go play for the other club and the kid doesn't make NHL, you don't want to be left wondering "well if only we had gone to big name minor team...".

Next kid sees the same thing, and the cycle repeats.

I mean you're not wrong in anything you're saying. And yes it's impossible to do up a counter-factual for athlete development.

But exposure and coaching does matter as well. You can have all the tools to be an NHLer, but if you're just being coached by your dad, and playing in your local community you're probably just going to be a great beer leaguer when you grow up.

The infamous story is that of Zach Hyman - whose dad went to far as to buy GTHL franchises for Zach to play in, and even bought a scouting agency. But the thing is - I guess it worked? Zach wound up being a first round draft pick and has had a very successful NHL career. Would his career have been any different if his father wasn't rich and didn't buy those clubs?

And Hyman is probablly a good example. I'm sure young Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid would have been discovered no matter what, but Hyman has always been more of a grit and determination guy, and not surviving on sheer talent alone.

 

[jetsmooseice]

I've always followed the career of Dylan Cozens because I knew his parents when I lived in Yukon (it's the Yukon - everyone knows everyone). But he had to move down to BC as a kid precisely because he couldn't find quality opposition and wouldn't get noticed.

I think in a case like that, moving was probably the right step... Yukon has fewer people than Brandon, MB, so it stands to reason that an exceptionally talented kid will have to move somewhere else to find some suitable competition.

That's part of my issue with spring hockey (or whatever other travel sports program you care to name), though... how many people can honestly say that their kid is so dominant that there isn't any adequate competition in their city or region such that they're forced to travel? I'd wager that there are no more than a dozen kids per year in every major Canadian city who can honestly say that. Maybe two dozen in Toronto and Montreal.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I think in a case like that, moving was probably the right step... Yukon has fewer people than Brandon, MB, so it stands to reason that an exceptionally talented kid will have to move somewhere else to find some suitable competition.

That's part of my issue with spring hockey (or whatever other travel sports program you care to name), though... how many people can honestly say that their kid is so dominant that there isn't any adequate competition in their city or region such that they're forced to travel? I'd wager that there are no more than a dozen kids per year in every major Canadian city who can honestly say that. Maybe two dozen in Toronto and Montreal.

So to be clear - there's spring hockey (which is just hockey played in the spring), and there's travel hockey (all from a Canadian perspective).

We've done spring hockey for years. My kids like playing hockey, they don't want to quite in April, so spring hockey just extends the season a couple of more months. Typically there's an out-of-town tournament, but it's still in Alberta so still driving distance.

We signed up for a travel team last spring though - the highlight of which was a tournament in the US. It was fun. We brought the whole family, the kids all really enjoyed going on an airplane and visiting the US.

But I can 100% tell you - we didn't need to travel to find opponents. We could find just as good opposition at home in Alberta. My kid is definitely not so good that he has to travel to find competition.

So we had the opportunity to join the same travel team this spring, but have declined. It was worth it as a fun family vacation, but definitely not worth it in terms of hockey development.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with parents putting their kids in clinics, private/semi-private lessons, camps? Why is it that every parent does this is "chasing a dream of the NHL"? My 10 year old daughter took a semi private lesson last night. No, do not think she is going to play for Team USA at the olympics, or get a college scholarship. I asked if she wanted me to text the coach to see if he had opening, before I did. This sunday, she does not have a game. I asked her if she wanted me to ask the coach about a lesson. She said, "Nah, I will just take the day off." I said ok and that was it. If between now and sunday she changes her mind, I will text the coach and inquire. She is a goalie, there are 2 coaches with who she will take lessons. I have NO IDEA who either has coached in the past (former pros, d1 players etc.), nor do I care. Heard about both through word of mouth and think they both give a great lesson. Most importantly, SHE LOVES practicing. When I told her I sent the coach a text and was awaiting a reply, she asked, "If he doesn't have a spot can we go down to off-ice and you just shoot on me for a little while?" yes, that would have cost money too to use the facility. So, can someone explain why this is a problem? I did not sell my house to go live in a trailer to finance hockey. I am not borrowing money from a loan shark. My wife did not take a 2nd job to pay for this. We are not wealthy, but we are comfortable. Should I not take her for these extra sessions because it is not fair that another goalie has parents who cant afford to or because the player doesnt want to do the extra clinics? Someone please enlighten me.

 

[patnyrnyg]

This is also not exclusive to hockey. One of my best friends played D1 baseball. His senior year had the 5th highest batting average in the NCAA. He was actually recruited as a pitcher. He now makes money giving private hitting lessons at a facility one of his former teammates opened. A younger guy with whom I work gives private basketball lessons in the afternoons. He actually passed on a chance to coach with a local HS team because he was making a lot more money with the private lessons. A guy who went to my HS, was a senior when I was a freshman, played D1 football and in the NFL for 2-3 years and the CFL for a few years. A few years ago, opened a training facility and trains mostly HS athletes. From what I understand, strength and agility type training specific to their specific sport(s). So, not batting cages or simply teaching them how to catch a football. Also been told he is making a ton of money with it and I am doubt most of his clients think they are going pro.

I also look at one of my daughter's assistant coaches. he is about 19 or so. Playing in a Jr league. Paying $ to play and train. Has no thought about playing pro or even college, just wants to play as much competitive hockey as he can for as long as he can. Certainly not "chasing the dream".

 

[WarriorofTime]

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with parents putting their kids in clinics, private/semi-private lessons, camps? Why is it that every parent does this is "chasing a dream of the NHL"? My 10 year old daughter took a semi private lesson last night. No, do not think she is going to play for Team USA at the olympics, or get a college scholarship. I asked if she wanted me to text the coach to see if he had opening, before I did. This sunday, she does not have a game. I asked her if she wanted me to ask the coach about a lesson. She said, "Nah, I will just take the day off." I said ok and that was it. If between now and sunday she changes her mind, I will text the coach and inquire. She is a goalie, there are 2 coaches with who she will take lessons. I have NO IDEA who either has coached in the past (former pros, d1 players etc.), nor do I care. Heard about both through word of mouth and think they both give a great lesson. Most importantly, SHE LOVES practicing. When I told her I sent the coach a text and was awaiting a reply, she asked, "If he doesn't have a spot can we go down to off-ice and you just shoot on me for a little while?" yes, that would have cost money too to use the facility. So, can someone explain why this is a problem? I did not sell my house to go live in a trailer to finance hockey. I am not borrowing money from a loan shark. My wife did not take a 2nd job to pay for this. We are not wealthy, but we are comfortable. Should I not take her for these extra sessions because it is not fair that another goalie has parents who cant afford to or because the player doesnt want to do the extra clinics? Someone please enlighten me.

There is no need to be defensive. You are fine with hockey being a sport exclusive to higher economic classes. That is what it has become and you are not the cause of it, but feed into it. It’s ok and good for you to be able to afford your kids the opportunity to play such an expensive and exclusive sport.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with parents putting their kids in clinics, private/semi-private lessons, camps? Why is it that every parent does this is "chasing a dream of the NHL"? My 10 year old daughter took a semi private lesson last night. No, do not think she is going to play for Team USA at the olympics, or get a college scholarship. I asked if she wanted me to text the coach to see if he had opening, before I did. This sunday, she does not have a game. I asked her if she wanted me to ask the coach about a lesson. She said, "Nah, I will just take the day off." I said ok and that was it. If between now and sunday she changes her mind, I will text the coach and inquire. She is a goalie, there are 2 coaches with who she will take lessons. I have NO IDEA who either has coached in the past (former pros, d1 players etc.), nor do I care. Heard about both through word of mouth and think they both give a great lesson. Most importantly, SHE LOVES practicing. When I told her I sent the coach a text and was awaiting a reply, she asked, "If he doesn't have a spot can we go down to off-ice and you just shoot on me for a little while?" yes, that would have cost money too to use the facility. So, can someone explain why this is a problem? I did not sell my house to go live in a trailer to finance hockey. I am not borrowing money from a loan shark. My wife did not take a 2nd job to pay for this. We are not wealthy, but we are comfortable. Should I not take her for these extra sessions because it is not fair that another goalie has parents who cant afford to or because the player doesnt want to do the extra clinics? Someone please enlighten me.

So the argument against it is that it is elitist - that not everybody can afford private lessons. And that furthermore perhaps we're missing out on the next amazing hockey talent because that kid's parents can't afford private lessons.

There's also a side issue of potentially over-training your kid leading to injury.

My thinking though is the horse is already out of the barn. If my kid wants to play high-level hockey he pretty much has to do the extra training. Most of the kids on his team are doing it themselves. And I certainly don't force my kid to do any of this!

Now every parent has to try and navigate youth sports as they see fit. You hear crazy stories out there - heck one hockey mom I know - their daughter is going to a crazy expensive hockey academy in BC, and her husband has moved out there just so she can go. I would never do that, but I don't think I judge parents who do.

 

[patnyrnyg]

There is no need to be defensive. You are fine with hockey being a sport exclusive to higher economic classes. That is what it has become and you are not the cause of it, but feed into it. It’s ok and good for you to be able to afford your kids the opportunity to play such an expensive and exclusive sport.

But that is exactly the thing. The kids in our organization are not from wealthy families. At least for this area. Just about all of them are middle class working parents.

 

[patnyrnyg]

So the argument against it is that it is elitist - that not everybody can afford private lessons. And that furthermore perhaps we're missing out on the next amazing hockey talent because that kid's parents can't afford private lessons.

There's also a side issue of potentially over-training your kid leading to injury.

My thinking though is the horse is already out of the barn. If my kid wants to play high-level hockey he pretty much has to do the extra training. Most of the kids on his team are doing it themselves. And I certainly don't force my kid to do any of this!

Now every parent has to try and navigate youth sports as they see fit. You hear crazy stories out there - heck one hockey mom I know - their daughter is going to a crazy expensive hockey academy in BC, and her husband has moved out there just so she can go. I would never do that, but I don't think I judge parents who do.

Missing out on the "next amazing talent because the parents can't afford...." can be said about every sport. We could probably all sit here and rattle off people who spent "a lot" of money on their kid's sports.

Affordability has always been an issue with hockey. When i was a kid (I am almost 48), I never even thought to ask my parents if I could join hockey due to the cost. All sports have become expensive if you plan to play at a competitive level, and I am not even talking about "elite". My daughter plays B level. Could she play A? Yes, but in our organization, we have a 10U team that is AA, their goalie is better than her. She was put on the 2nd (of 3) teams. Started Low-A, we got killed and we dropped to high-B. I do these extra things because she enjoys the clinics/lessons and wants to get better. She has never said anything to me about trying to get on a "higher" or "better" team.

 

[Slats432]

I don't think it is the extra sessions people are talking about. It is the private leagues and academies that charge 10s of thousands to go there. That pushes people who can't afford it to try to compete.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't think it is the extra sessions people are talking about. It is the private leagues and academies that charge 10s of thousands to go there. That pushes people who can't afford it to try to compete.

I mean yeah - there's a whole spectrum, depending on how much you want to pay. It can go from your basic "we have one game and one practice per week and that's it", to getting more ice time, to power skating, to HSL/JPHL, right up to CSSHL schools.

 

[patnyrnyg]

So the argument against it is that it is elitist - that not everybody can afford private lessons. And that furthermore perhaps we're missing out on the next amazing hockey talent because that kid's parents can't afford private lessons.

There's also a side issue of potentially over-training your kid leading to injury.

My thinking though is the horse is already out of the barn. If my kid wants to play high-level hockey he pretty much has to do the extra training. Most of the kids on his team are doing it themselves. And I certainly don't force my kid to do any of this!

Now every parent has to try and navigate youth sports as they see fit. You hear crazy stories out there - heck one hockey mom I know - their daughter is going to a crazy expensive hockey academy in BC, and her husband has moved out there just so she can go. I would never do that, but I don't think I judge parents who do.

Forgive my ignorance, but on the hockey academies. Are they actual schools where the kid attends and plays hockey for the school, or is just a fancy name for a hockey organization outside of school? Someone described one hockey academy a few hours away from us. This person did not have a kid at this academy. However, from how he described it, it sounded like a Charter School for hockey. A former co-worker is a teacher at a Greek Charter school near me. Regular school, however there is a focus on Greek history and Language in addition to the other state requirements. Students do not pay $30K per year to attend as they do receive public funding and donations. Honestly, the person to whom I was speaking often has a lot to say, so not sure he actually knew what he was talking about.

 

[oldunclehue]

Forgive my ignorance, but on the hockey academies. Are they actual schools where the kid attends and plays hockey for the school, or is just a fancy name for a hockey organization outside of school? Someone described one hockey academy a few hours away from us. This person did not have a kid at this academy. However, from how he described it, it sounded like a Charter School for hockey. A former co-worker is a teacher at a Greek Charter school near me. Regular school, however there is a focus on Greek history and Language in addition to the other state requirements. Students do not pay $30K per year to attend as they do receive public funding and donations. Honestly, the person to whom I was speaking often has a lot to say, so not sure he actually knew what he was talking about.

I am the OP on this, my main issue was how the commercialization of the sport has ruined the opportunity for likely 80% of kids who start hockey....my main issue was how Hockey Academies are poaching the best kids in my community and charging people $30,000 plus for their 15 year old to play academy hockey and go to school. As well as the amount of "keepin up with the jones's" there is in hockey now. I mean we have a kid who is 10 years old that his family moved him here from another community just for better hockey.

We have 8 kids that would be on our AAA team that went to different academies and nearly caused our AAA team to fold. If you were to go to a financial advisor and tell them "I want to spend $30,000 on tuition and then another $10,000 on living expenses and life expenses a YEAR for my 15 year old to go to an academy" the advisor would say thats a HORRIBLE way to spend money.

I played up to the level of Major Junior in the early 2000's and people made it on hard work and talent. Now you see families using their status and ability to pay ridiculous amounts of money for the chance at their kid advancing. A very very slim chance.

I know its not my worry what people do with their money, but as we see the entire landscape of hockey changing before our eyes in this country I fear MANY MANY kids and families will just say no to the sport and go soccer or something less costly and less crazy in regards to expectations.

Hockey Canada has ruined the pathways kids can play and now its all about rich kids who can afford all the fancy schools, trainers, sports psychs, advisors and agents.

As your kid gets to u13 and above you will get to experience it...10 and under it isn't quite as bad yet.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I am the OP on this, my main issue was how the commercialization of the sport has ruined the opportunity for likely 80% of kids who start hockey....my main issue was how Hockey Academies are poaching the best kids in my community and charging people $30,000 plus for their 15 year old to play academy hockey and go to school. As well as the amount of "keepin up with the jones's" there is in hockey now. I mean we have a kid who is 10 years old that his family moved him here from another community just for better hockey.

We have 8 kids that would be on our AAA team that went to different academies and nearly caused our AAA team to fold. If you were to go to a financial advisor and tell them "I want to spend $30,000 on tuition and then another $10,000 on living expenses and life expenses a YEAR for my 15 year old to go to an academy" the advisor would say thats a HORRIBLE way to spend money.

I played up to the level of Major Junior in the early 2000's and people made it on hard work and talent. Now you see families using their status and ability to pay ridiculous amounts of money for the chance at their kid advancing. A very very slim chance.

I know its not my worry what people do with their money, but as we see the entire landscape of hockey changing before our eyes in this country I fear MANY MANY kids and families will just say no to the sport and go soccer or something less costly and less crazy in regards to expectations.

Hockey Canada has ruined the pathways kids can play and now its all about rich kids who can afford all the fancy schools, trainers, sports psychs, advisors and agents.

As your kid gets to u13 and above you will get to experience it...10 and under it isn't quite as bad yet.

Yes, and I saw your other thread about unreal expectations. In that thread you prefaced it by saying you played in the WHL. You started this thread by saying you played in the QMJHL. But that is a different issue.

Hard work and talent still matter. Are these academies going to accept a b or even low A-level player just because his/her parents are willing to write the check? The player has to want it as well. We can probably all name a kid who doesn't seem interested in playing yet the parents sign them up for all kids of clinics and private lessons. One of our local coaches runs small groups in the afternoons before the team practices start. When I can, I will bring my daughter down to take shots (free for her as he doesn't bring in a goalie coach). There is one kid who is there on occasion just going through the motions. The coach has said to me he doesn't understand why the parent keeps bringing him. No matter how much money mom spends, he is never going to be more than low level travel player if his attitude doesn't change. Around here, most organizations have 2-3 tier 2 travel teams at 10U and 12U. If they make cuts, it is usually one of the following reasons: 1) parents are just jerks and they dont want the parents. 2) the kid is just a novice and needs a year of house league. 3) They can accommodate 2 10U teams due to ice time, they get 34 skaters at tryouts, keep the top 15 for the A, next 15 for B and only cut 4, and even in those situations they will try to figure out a way to go with 3 teams and cut to 12, 12, 10 with hopes they can add a player or 2 Well, this kid wherever he plays is going to be on the bottom team and one of the lesser players on those bottom teams.

If families and parents avoid hockey because they do not have the money to help the kid become an "elite" player or make the NHL, then then kid is likely never going to play any sport. Besides, at 13 is when you start to see the drop-off in participation across all sports, unfortunately. By 13 the kid knows if they are good or not and they start to specialize in particular sports or stop playing altogether. I know, it sucks,

It sounds like you are mad that the academies have ruined YOUR AAA program. Are there no other AAA teams in the area? Is there a reason your program can't hold onto these kids? Why is it only about the AAA program? Does your organization not have AA down to B?

As far as the financial advisor? I am sure they would tell me instead of spending $2k for tuition, another $2-3K on different clinics/lessons, I would be better off putting the $4-5K into a 429 plan for her. Same with the $200/Month I spend for my 2 girls to be in a rec gymnastics class (200 total, not each). Why? 1) because they get a commission and 2) because they are not likely to get a scholarship. But, should I not allow my kids to participate in activities because I am not going to see a financial reward for these "investments"? For some people, they are going to spend $20K per year from private school anyway. That doesnt include the cost of hockey. If they can afford that, then $ isnt an issue and they can spend $30K for school and hockey.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Forgive my ignorance, but on the hockey academies. Are they actual schools where the kid attends and plays hockey for the school, or is just a fancy name for a hockey organization outside of school? Someone described one hockey academy a few hours away from us. This person did not have a kid at this academy. However, from how he described it, it sounded like a Charter School for hockey. A former co-worker is a teacher at a Greek Charter school near me. Regular school, however there is a focus on Greek history and Language in addition to the other state requirements. Students do not pay $30K per year to attend as they do receive public funding and donations. Honestly, the person to whom I was speaking often has a lot to say, so not sure he actually knew what he was talking about.

It's an outside organization that runs the hockey side, but where they have partnered with an actual school - and that kid does actually attend that school. The academics are pared down to just the minimum requirements, and all that extra time is spent on hockey.

As I understand it the one "upside" is your $30k (and up!) is that it is going to cover all the travel. It covers both renting the bus to take them to the rink every day from school, and (I think) the cost of hockey travel.

As I understand it you have to try out for these schools and they certainly won't take unskilled players (they have a reputation to maintain after all) but there are players they will try to recruit, and there are players they will take who are 'good enough' to fill out a roster and pay the tuition fees.

Nobody has ever said these hockey academies are the only way to develop an elite hockey player - but they are seeming to make up the majority of CHL draft picks.

I don't have my kid in such a program and short of a full-ride scholarship I never would. But I don't see how you can ban them either.

 

[oldunclehue]

It's an outside organization that runs the hockey side, but where they have partnered with an actual school - and that kid does actually attend that school. The academics are pared down to just the minimum requirements, and all that extra time is spent on hockey.

As I understand it the one "upside" is your $30k (and up!) is that it is going to cover all the travel. It covers both renting the bus to take them to the rink every day from school, and (I think) the cost of hockey travel.

As I understand it you have to try out for these schools and they certainly won't take unskilled players (they have a reputation to maintain after all) but there are players they will try to recruit, and there are players they will take who are 'good enough' to fill out a roster and pay the tuition fees.

Nobody has ever said these hockey academies are the only way to develop an elite hockey player - but they are seeming to make up the majority of CHL draft picks.

I don't have my kid in such a program and short of a full-ride scholarship I never would. But I don't see how you can ban them either.

It's a change in things, and each generation has one. It's just a frustration point for me, I am heavily involved in our minor hockey system here as a coach and other things. I see the discouragement around the rink in regards to most kids when the "elite" kids are around. They go to Winnipeg every month for special camps, they have a skating coach, they are on the path to a academy in the next year (13 years old) and have every nice piece of gear. The other kids want it as bad and are just as into the sport but don't have that side of it so they already feel as if they are behind. I also feel for the kid in a way because he misses out on normal kid stuff. But the parents are dead set on the kid being elite.

We do not have any other AAA teams here, in Manitoba you are stuck to your region in regards to AAA hockey during the season. Spring AAA and Summer AAA are unregulated therefore you can go anywhere. We do not have a AA team after AAA it goes to highschool or A hockey. We are a smaller region.

I guess I have to get with the times and stop thinking about where this is all going. I grew up loving the sport and was able to be a kid and be good at a sport without my parents having to re-mortgage a home or miss out on summer fun. Nowadays that seems lost if you want to make it to even AAA in most places you need to be doing extra hockey and extra everything. I fear we've turned a sport and pastime in to a job for these kids...even at the age of under 10 years old. It's scary to me, but its all changed and just have to sit back and tell myself that the days of kids being kids in sport and able to excel at the sport are gone....and that's because their is money to be made by private companies who sell the skill advancement to those willing to pay for it.

Cheers y'all, go enjoy the outdoors and remember they are just kids.

 

[Yukon Joe]

We do not have any other AAA teams here, in Manitoba you are stuck to your region in regards to AAA hockey during the season. Spring AAA and Summer AAA are unregulated therefore you can go anywhere. We do not have a AA team after AAA it goes to highschool or A hockey. We are a smaller region.

We've gone over these topics before, but I went through the thread and did want to say that I feel that your club has lost it's AAA team. I know my kid's club they have significantly reduced the number of AA teams precisely because so many kids go to academies.

That being said there does seem to be a trend of kids coming back from the private leagues like HSL/JPHL back to organized hockey at the U15 level.

 

[patnyrnyg]

It's a change in things, and each generation has one. It's just a frustration point for me, I am heavily involved in our minor hockey system here as a coach and other things. I see the discouragement around the rink in regards to most kids when the "elite" kids are around. They go to Winnipeg every month for special camps, they have a skating coach, they are on the path to a academy in the next year (13 years old) and have every nice piece of gear. The other kids want it as bad and are just as into the sport but don't have that side of it so they already feel as if they are behind. I also feel for the kid in a way because he misses out on normal kid stuff. But the parents are dead set on the kid being elite.

We do not have any other AAA teams here, in Manitoba you are stuck to your region in regards to AAA hockey during the season. Spring AAA and Summer AAA are unregulated therefore you can go anywhere. We do not have a AA team after AAA it goes to highschool or A hockey. We are a smaller region.

I guess I have to get with the times and stop thinking about where this is all going. I grew up loving the sport and was able to be a kid and be good at a sport without my parents having to re-mortgage a home or miss out on summer fun. Nowadays that seems lost if you want to make it to even AAA in most places you need to be doing extra hockey and extra everything. I fear we've turned a sport and pastime in to a job for these kids...even at the age of under 10 years old. It's scary to me, but its all changed and just have to sit back and tell myself that the days of kids being kids in sport and able to excel at the sport are gone....and that's because their is money to be made by private companies who sell the skill advancement to those willing to pay for it.

Cheers y'all, go enjoy the outdoors and remember they are just kids.

Are you only concerned with the AAA players happiness? Each kid that moves onto an academy opens a spot for another player to get the spot. If it was truly just about helping these kids develop a love for the game, should it matter about whether the kids is playing AAA academy elite, AA, A, B, house, learn to play? Maybe it is something I am not getting. Granted, I am not in Canada, so maybe the AAA designation to which you are speaking is different than what I am thinking about in my area. My daughter's team had practice last night, she plays on a boys team, and some of us were talking about whether we would have enough kids to ice three 12U teams next season or if they would have to cut down to 2. If they go with 2, a few kids on her team are not going to make the 2nd team. And, it is not because we are worried about kids being recruited to academies. For us, there is an issue that a handful of parents are not happy with the org's plan for next season and may leave. Restriction on movement is not as strict as what you described in your post about being stuck to a region.

But yes, youth sports has changed across the board. If you think it is going to go back to just having a team practice and travel hockey only being for the top players with thriving house league programs, it is just not going to happen. Even in the US, Little League baseball is suffering with lower participation than 20-30 years ago, because other organizations have popped up which better kids are leaning towards.

 

[jetsmooseice]

It's a change in things, and each generation has one. It's just a frustration point for me, I am heavily involved in our minor hockey system here as a coach and other things. I see the discouragement around the rink in regards to most kids when the "elite" kids are around. They go to Winnipeg every month for special camps, they have a skating coach, they are on the path to a academy in the next year (13 years old) and have every nice piece of gear. The other kids want it as bad and are just as into the sport but don't have that side of it so they already feel as if they are behind. I also feel for the kid in a way because he misses out on normal kid stuff. But the parents are dead set on the kid being elite.

My kid is 10 and he still thinks he will play in the NHL some day. Sentences that begin with "when I'm in the NHL, I'm going to..." are not uncommon. At some point it will dawn on him that this isn't going to happen. Pretty soon, I'd guess. In some ways it will be like finding out that Santa Claus is really your parents.

But much like learning the truth about Santa Claus doesn't mean you stop enjoying Christmas, I'm not sure that falling off the top super-elite track due to either lack of ability or lack of means, or some combination of both, should mean that you should become discouraged or stop enjoying hockey, or just give up altogether. Let's face it, only a small number of players are headed down that elite path to AAA/major junior, and even fewer will go beyond that. There is still lots of room to play and enjoy the game, I'm not sure why there is this fixation on reaching the most elite levels of the game. By definition it's only the tiniest proportion of players that will reach those heights, even if you took the most egalitarian possible approach to player development.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Are you only concerned with the AAA players happiness? Each kid that moves onto an academy opens a spot for another player to get the spot. If it was truly just about helping these kids develop a love for the game, should it matter about whether the kids is playing AAA academy elite, AA, A, B, house, learn to play? Maybe it is something I am not getting. Granted, I am not in Canada, so maybe the AAA designation to which you are speaking is different than what I am thinking about in my area. My daughter's team had practice last night, she plays on a boys team, and some of us were talking about whether we would have enough kids to ice three 12U teams next season or if they would have to cut down to 2. If they go with 2, a few kids on her team are not going to make the 2nd team. And, it is not because we are worried about kids being recruited to academies. For us, there is an issue that a handful of parents are not happy with the org's plan for next season and may leave. Restriction on movement is not as strict as what you described in your post about being stuck to a region.

But yes, youth sports has changed across the board. If you think it is going to go back to just having a team practice and travel hockey only being for the top players with thriving house league programs, it is just not going to happen. Even in the US, Little League baseball is suffering with lower participation than 20-30 years ago, because other organizations have popped up which better kids are leaning towards.

So question wasn't directed at me necessarily, but I'll try to answer.

In Canada the AAA / AA / A designations are used by Hockey Canada recognized teams. Realistically if you want even a shot at playing CHL / Junior A you would want to be on that AAA team. If your club doesn't have enough players for AAA, and they drop down to only having a AA, those kids are going to face lower competition and no scouts are going to watch their games.

 

[patnyrnyg]

My kid is 10 and he still thinks he will play in the NHL some day. Sentences that begin with "when I'm in the NHL, I'm going to..." are not uncommon. At some point it will dawn on him that this isn't going to happen. Pretty soon, I'd guess. In some ways it will be like finding out that Santa Claus is really your parents.

But much like learning the truth about Santa Claus doesn't mean you stop enjoying Christmas, I'm not sure that falling off the top super-elite track due to either lack of ability or lack of means, or some combination of both, should mean that you should become discouraged or stop enjoying hockey, or just give up altogether. Let's face it, only a small number of players are headed down that elite path to AAA/major junior, and even fewer will go beyond that. There is still lots of room to play and enjoy the game, I'm not sure why there is this fixation on reaching the most elite levels of the game. By definition it's only the tiniest proportion of players that will reach those heights, even if you took the most egalitarian possible approach to player development.

Well, apparently you are wasting your money according to some on here. If he is not being scouted by the academies, he will not get attention from Major Junior and the NHL won't want him.

Mine wanted to try being a goalie about a week after her 8th bday. A few weeks later, she was hooked. It was house league, but it wasn't even a "league". A game on saturday morning (only had 2 teams) and a practice on sunday morning. There was one mom there who was absolutely nuts. As they were entering the ice, she would be in her son's ear telling him everything she wanted to see that day. One day she was being really mean to him and the father (ex-husband) was trying to tell her to tone it down. Anyways, after the fall house season ended, didnt see them. Saw her a few weeks later and she said, "She is still doing goalie? That is so cool. I will tell you, goalies make a lot of money, but there is so much pressure on them.: I thought to myself, "she is 8." Not wanting to be rude, I just nodded my head. Then she asked if she was still in house league and i said yes. She decided to pull her son out as she didn't think it was worth the $500. She instead put him in private lessons as she thought that would be better for his career. yes, HER words. Then she told me how she is thinking of taking him to a coach who used to give private lessons to a very prominent NHLer everyone has definitely heard of. The coach is easily 2-3 hours away on a weekday. An hour to get there for an early morning weekend lesson, but at least 2 hours to get home. More, if the lesson is in the afternoon. Have seen the kid twice in the last 2 years, he has not gotten any better. If you are reading this and think I am exaggerating it, I 100% understand. If someone else was telling me about these interactions, I honestly wouldn't believe it myself. But, I did experience it.

last year, right after new years. Midst of first travel season, she was taking a semi-private lesson. Other goalie was an 11 or 12 year old playing AAA. Father was a nice enough guy, was talking to him. I explained she is in low-b, she is only 9. First year travel, blah blah blah. He says, "do you and her a favor. Get her into AA as quick as you can. Then she will get looked at by AAA clubs and then she can get a scholarship to a prep school and college." I seriously could not believe to what I was listening

 

[patnyrnyg]

So question wasn't directed at me necessarily, but I'll try to answer.

In Canada the AAA / AA / A designations are used by Hockey Canada recognized teams. Realistically if you want even a shot at playing CHL / Junior A you would want to be on that AAA team. If your club doesn't have enough players for AAA, and they drop down to only having a AA, those kids are going to face lower competition and no scouts are going to watch their games.

So, similar to the US, but AAA is "Tier 1" and AA and below is Tier 2. But here, clubs have to apply for "tier 1 status". In NJ, there are probably about 12 tier 1 teams and they don't have restrictions on where kids can play. I know of at least 2 kids who live on Staten Island (for those unfamiliar that little piece of land in between Brooklyn and NJ that is not Manhattan) that play on a team in Connecticut. Drive to practice is anywhere from an hour and a half to 3 hours due to traffic.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So, similar to the US, but AAA is "Tier 1" and AA and below is Tier 2. But here, clubs have to apply for "tier 1 status". In NJ, there are probably about 12 tier 1 teams and they don't have restrictions on where kids can play. I know of at least 2 kids who live on Staten Island (for those unfamiliar that little piece of land in between Brooklyn and NJ that is not Manhattan) that play on a team in Connecticut. Drive to practice is anywhere from an hour and a half to 3 hours due to traffic.

So this is more just in Alberta - can't speak for other provinces.

Clubs all have strict geographical limitations. You can only apply for one team based on where you live. Let's take U15 since that's what my kid is in. If you're cut from your club's U15AAA team, you can seek a release and go try out for another club's AAA team. That other club has to give you at least one tryout - but their team might already be basically formed. And you can only try out for one other AAA team, so pick where you go carefully.

When you're cut from U15AAA, you go to your club's AA team and try out there. AA tryouts start slightly later, but again depending on how far you went in AAA tryouts those AA teams might be part-way through forming as well.

If you're cut from your club's AA team, you can again seek a release and try out for a different club's AA (I think - I don't think I've seen anyone seek release twice).

And once you're cut from AA, then you're back to regular hockey. There you're given no special status based on trying out for AAA/AA, and it's not impossible for kids to be quite discouraged and slide quite a bit down to Tier 2-4.


This, incidentally, is supposedly one of the advantages of the unsanctioned leagues. You can try to build a stacked team by recruiting far and wide.