Come home Stevie.............

[obey86]

These discussions are a playground of roll safe memes. "No expectations of management if you don't acquire elite players." *points to head*

Oh geez, if only we knew who to blame for the Wings failing to bring in elite talent. There must be a guy in charge of drafting, trades, and free agent signings. Has he had like over 5 years to help restock the team at both center and defense? That feels like a reasonable amount of time to see results, I guess.

Look, professional sports is cutthroat. It's not made for people who want participation ribbons. There are 30 teams (now 31!) looking for an advantage every season and if you don't keep up it's time for the next man up. The Wings have been remarkably patient with both Holland and their players.

But yet you seem ok with absolving Yzerman of any criticism and instead giving him a participation ribbon for this season for putting together a crap team and missing the playoffs despite having elite talent on his roster.

 

[Bench]

But yet you seem ok with absolving Yzerman of any criticism and instead giving him a participation ribbon for this season for putting together a crap team and missing the playoffs despite having elite talent on his roster.

Where did I do that?

 

[Heaton]

Boo hoo.

The Red Wings made the playoffs a few years ago (13-14) when Zetterberg missed ~40 games, Datsyuk missed ~40 games, and Franzen missed ~30 games.

In 2010-2011 the Penguins made the playoffs with Crosby, Malkin and Steal playing 41, 43 and 42 games.

Why is it so hard for people around here to simply admit that Yzerman failed badly this year without always making a whole bunch of excuses?

Lmao. I literally said 'no excuses for Yzerman' in the post you quoted. I admitted they didn't do a good job, but I don't hold making the playoffs as big of an accomplishment as some other people. I'd rather have all of the pieces to make cup runs than back into the playoffs and get blown the **** out by teams who do have chances of making cup runs.

And even more hilarious, in the next post that you seem to have skipped, I explained that I don't even want Yzerman as a GM.

 

[Bench]

I literally said 'no excuses for Yzerman' in the post you quoted.

That's just a clever way to hide excuses.

I also did that by never mentioning Yzerman at all. I think he's onto our DaVinci Code-esque cipher that we put into every post.

And even more hilarious, in the next post that you seem to have skipped, I explained that I don't even want Yzerman as a GM.

So even if Yzerman is a tire fire of a GM, that doesn't mean Holland is doing well. It's not like the failures of others somehow changes the Red Wings being a bad team. At best you can say, "See, the guy you like is bad, too!" Oh, great. That's quite the accomplishment. Can't wait to hang the "Tampa failed too" banner in Little Caesars Arena.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Thems the breaks. The GM of the Detroit Red Wings is going to be held to a higher standard than the GM of another team that we don't root for. Especially when the GM of the Wings has been touted as the best GM ever for years.

So you pretty much admit that you will full on hold Holland to a different standard with a fairly negative view-point (given your posting history) regardless?

Which makes me want to offer out my opinion of this that he either earned that by being one of the best GMs ever or you have irrational expectations, curious door A or B on that one?

I know what will be said is I am trying to put words in your mouth. But there are people that can read this that way, heck that is pretty much how I just read your post here.

Lmao. I literally said 'no excuses for Yzerman' in the post you quoted. I admitted they didn't do a good job, but I don't hold making the playoffs as big of an accomplishment as some other people. I'd rather have all of the pieces to make cup runs than back into the playoffs and get blown the **** out by teams who do have chances of making cup runs.

And even more hilarious, in the next post that you seem to have skipped, I explained that I don't even want Yzerman as a GM.

Yzerman has a need for an entire new second pairing and better two-way forwards. He isn't as close as people think even with as good as Hedman is. Especially now that he has actually slid out of the ELC and RFA contracts with most those guys. He is building the Sharks in my opinion, nothing wrong with that they are a very good team. Hedman could still deliver them I guess, he is better than Burns and their core is closer in age and younger.

That's just a clever way to hide excuses.

I also did that by never mentioning Yzerman at all. I think he's onto our DaVinci Code-esque cipher that we put into every post.



So even if Yzerman is a tire fire of a GM, that doesn't mean Holland is doing well. It's not like the failures of others somehow changes the Red Wings being a bad team. At best you can say, "See, the guy you like is bad, too!" Oh, great. That's quite the accomplishment. Can't wait to hang the "Tampa failed too" banner in Little Caesars Arena.

I think their job is a lot tougher than most around here say. The banners are pretty hard to win. That 2% stuff that drives a lot of people nuts around here is something I completely believe. In any event if you want to code it posting in the Come Home Stevie thread is probably inadvisable.

I have said I would go with Fenton, but again I have to ask does anybody really believe Holland is leaving this organization??? I mean I don't get the point in pretending this guy is the Ford Family running the Lions... What he did was huge, he has the chance to recover it, he according to most probably won't at which point we will turn the page with him still in a different role within the organization. That is the end game here because he is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the game.

But go ahead carry on with the theme of the last calendar year... What do I think most of you sound like when talking about Holland

 

[Bench]

But go ahead carry on with the theme of the last calendar year... What do I think most of you sound like when talking about Holland

Hey, we did it. TZE is being a dick.

 

[Heaton]

So you pretty much admit that you will full on hold Holland to a different standard with a fairly negative view-point (given your posting history) regardless?

Which makes me want to offer out my opinion of this that he either earned that by being one of the best GMs ever or you have irrational expectations, curious door A or B on that one?

...

That is the end game here because he is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the game.

I've never been shy about saying Holland was one of the best GMs before the salary cap and I've already explained in previous threads that Holland is held to a different standard because he's a) our GM and b) considered one of the best ever. It would be ridiculous to not expect more from him because of that.

Holland has never built a team from the ground up and he's sucked since 2010. Zero impact trades, mediocre to bad drafting. Little to no hope.

If you think Holland has been a great GM for the past 7 years, please enlighten me. Making the playoffs is so overrated when you have no chance of doing anything. The Streak is one of the worst things to happen to this franchise.

If I wasn't on mobile I'd rebut your meme with a picture of someone with their head in the sand.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I've never been shy about saying Holland was one of the best GMs before the salary cap and I've already explained in previous threads that Holland is held to a different standard because he's a) our GM and b) considered one of the best ever. It would be ridiculous to not expect more from him because of that.

Holland has never built a team from the ground up and he's sucked since 2010. Zero impact trades, mediocre to bad drafting. Little to no hope.

If you think Holland has been a great GM for the past 7 years, please enlighten me. Making the playoffs is so overrated when you have no chance of doing anything. The Streak is one of the worst things to happen to this franchise.

If I wasn't on mobile I'd rebut your meme with a picture of someone with their head in the sand.

I think the last two years were the first time we had no shot at being a contender and I have said that before. So the use of seven years to me is flat-out wrong again I have said that over and over. It didn't happen, but I could see what they were thinking.

Holland came into the cap brilliantly. Yes his core (which he replaced entirely on the front-end) was great and he made good hard decisions on who could go and who could stay. Then in the middle of this strategy the league decided to change the freaking cap rules and contract rules... That certainly didn't help oh well.

I think the reality is it is tough to win in this league. A lot tougher than most realize, that Holland didn't go from one of the best GMs in the league to an idiot overnight. Also, because of what he has accomplished he is going to get a little time to fix it now that the wheels have fallen off. I wish the wheels didn't fall off and I have problems with a ton of the contracts on this team. It is disappointing and I am willing to watch him walk upstairs. For an actual upgrade or a realistic replacement but the OMG he is the worst guy ever and total idiot stuff has me actually wanting to not come to our board at all anymore.

A disappointing season and then an awful one isn't enough to drum a guy that has put in 30 years of glorious work for the organization. So shocking I cannot believe it....

 

[Heaton]

has me actually wanting to not come to our board at all anymore.

Welcome to the ****ing Club. But I'll leave you with this, Holland didn't become an idiot overnight, but he also has over stayed his welcome, just like most people do after 20 ****ing years. It's time for a new direction, we're going no where with Holland.

Maybe Yzerman sucks too, but at least Yzerman has elite talent to waste and some hope of success. The wings have literally nothing and everything Holland says is killing me.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hey, we did it. TZE is being a dick.

Guessing there are several people that think I have been that for awhile, especially concerning Babcock.

But this was not a good season...

 

[Syckle78]

Think we're all just sick to death of arguing the same ****. We all have our sides. But until something significant changes either in the organization or Holland making bold moves we're just beating a dead horse over and over.

 

[Jaromir Blogger]

Think we're all just sick to death of arguing the same ****. We all have our sides. But until something significant changes either in the organization or Holland making bold moves we're just beating a dead horse over and over.

I agree. I only just starting posting again at all around here recently (and I obviously never did it much to begin with), but I've read this forum almost daily for years, and I think the last time a new argument was presented by anybody with regard to Holland's effectiveness (good or bad) was about a year ago, give or take. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but if I am, it's not really by much.

Basically, any given poster is saying some iteration of either:

A.) "The team is declining, has the league's highest payroll anchored down by albatross contracts to undeserving players and the future doesn't look particularly bright given their recent modus operandi and stated desire to not alter it in any way."

OR

B.) "It could always be worse, so there's nothing much wrong and they always have the chance to get extraordinarily lucky in the draft from any position. I don't hear you LALALALALALALALALALALALA."

I don't know that there's really much point arguing about it anymore.

 

[Ingvar]

Welcome to the ****ing Club. But I'll leave you with this, Holland didn't become an idiot overnight, but he also has over stayed his welcome, just like most people do after 20 ****ing years. It's time for a new direction, we're going no where with Holland.

Maybe Yzerman sucks too, but at least Yzerman has elite talent to waste and some hope of success. The wings have literally nothing and everything Holland says is killing me.

I just don't see it. This board is all about hindsight but let's look realistically: what should Holland have done different? Starting rebuild in 2010? It's madness, Wings were one year removed from cup finals, go tell Chicago they need to rebuild if you believe it. Up until 2015 this team had at least one 1C and at least one 1D. Rebuilding while you still have them is stupid - you start it and there's a good chance you turn into "50 years without a cup" Leafs. It doesn't matter that you don't have the best chance to win the cup - trying for a wonder run is better than sucking for a few years only to find out your new core has the same odds of winning as your old core. Since 2015 Holland is selling at the deadline and hoarding picks.

If we agree that grand strategy is pretty reasonable we can move on to details. There seems 3 major complaints: drafting, trades and long-term contracts. The complaint about drafting is that we haven't got enough out of later picks - and it just happened that Holland changed our head of NA scouting. It's a bit early to tell but it seems the results are getting better. The complaint about trades is that we haven't made an impact trade of a roster player for a long time. I agree, this could be improved. But I guess there is a reason for this: if you have an aging core and a deficit of high end players then trading one of them and missing like Forsberg for Erat is unacceptable. There was a gamble on development of our players and it didn't pay off but you have to acknowledge it before condemning Holland for not taking another gamble. If you do it then you have to estimate what were the odds of success in each case and it becomes a rather different discussion. The last complaint about handing ridiculous contracts is the most valid one - Abby's contract is awful, Helm's contract was unnecessary and Glendening's one is strange considering we're not a cup contender. These may become a huge problem going forward and I'd like to hear Holland's reasoning behind them. But if I had to guess it would be something like: I don't have much faith in our prospect pool, team is going to have a few rough years and we're opening a new arena and need to get butts in the seats; I guees I'll try to make it marketable as feel-good home-grown team filled with local players, hopefully these guys will do as a stop-gap long enough to draft a new core.

I don't see Holland as a perfect GM but I believe most of complaints about him are unwarrented. This team was the best team in the league last 25 years but the miracle isn't happenning so it is going down and people just can't accept. Instead we're grasping at straws and looking for a magic bullet to make it contender again. If we had a GM X, player Y and have done Z all this wouldn't happen and we would be contenders right now/in 2 years. Unfortunately there is no easy way out, all feasible options are unpleasant and painful. Only luck can change this team fortunes rapidly but you don't make decisions in hope of luck, you just put yourself in best position to recieve it while planning for none. Considering this I would cut Holland some slack, his biggest failure up to date is not pulling a miracle, let him show what he can do in this situation before firing him.

Speaking of magic bullets and returning to original topic, I don't think Yzerman is one. He did some sleek moves while he had no pressure to succeed but doesn't have much in results and he just missed playoffs while having a Norris finalist and top-5 forward. Say what you want about Holland but this never happened during his tenure.

 

[obey86]

Lmao. I literally said 'no excuses for Yzerman' in the post you quoted. I admitted they didn't do a good job, but I don't hold making the playoffs as big of an accomplishment as some other people. I'd rather have all of the pieces to make cup runs than back into the playoffs and get blown the **** out by teams who do have chances of making cup runs.

And even more hilarious, in the next post that you seem to have skipped, I explained that I don't even want Yzerman as a GM.

Yes, you said "no excuses" following an entire paragraph where you made a bunch of excuses about injuries.

 

[Syckle78]

I agree. I only just starting posting again at all around here recently (and I obviously never did it much to begin with), but I've read this forum almost daily for years, and I think the last time a new argument was presented by anybody with regard to Holland's effectiveness (good or bad) was about a year ago, give or take. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but if I am, it's not really by much.

Basically, any given poster is saying some iteration of either:

A.) "The team is declining, has the league's highest payroll anchored down by albatross contracts to undeserving players and the future doesn't look particularly bright given their recent modus operandi and stated desire to not alter it in any way."

OR

B.) "It could always be worse, so there's nothing much wrong and they always have the chance to get extraordinarily lucky in the draft from any position. I don't hear you LALALALALALALALALALALALA."

I don't know that there's really much point arguing about it anymore.

Pretty much. Won't have anything fresh to argue about until july 1st. I won't count the draft because arguing over picks that will or won't pan out that early is silly,though I'm sure it'll happen.

 

[Heaton]

Yes, you said "no excuses" following an entire paragraph where you made a bunch of excuses about injuries.

Lol, I like how they're 'excuses' for Yzerman, but when you said the same thing about Holland it's a 'reason'.

 

[Heaton]

I just don't see it. This board is all about hindsight but let's look realistically: what should Holland have done different? Starting rebuild in 2010? It's madness, Wings were one year removed from cup finals, go tell Chicago they need to rebuild if you believe it. Up until 2015 this team had at least one 1C and at least one 1D. Rebuilding while you still have them is stupid - you start it and there's a good chance you turn into "50 years without a cup" Leafs. It doesn't matter that you don't have the best chance to win the cup - trying for a wonder run is better than sucking for a few years only to find out your new core has the same odds of winning as your old core. Since 2015 Holland is selling at the deadline and hoarding picks.

If we agree that grand strategy is pretty reasonable we can move on to details. There seems 3 major complaints: drafting, trades and long-term contracts. The complaint about drafting is that we haven't got enough out of later picks - and it just happened that Holland changed our head of NA scouting. It's a bit early to tell but it seems the results are getting better. The complaint about trades is that we haven't made an impact trade of a roster player for a long time. I agree, this could be improved. But I guess there is a reason for this: if you have an aging core and a deficit of high end players then trading one of them and missing like Forsberg for Erat is unacceptable. There was a gamble on development of our players and it didn't pay off but you have to acknowledge it before condemning Holland for not taking another gamble. If you do it then you have to estimate what were the odds of success in each case and it becomes a rather different discussion. The last complaint about handing ridiculous contracts is the most valid one - Abby's contract is awful, Helm's contract was unnecessary and Glendening's one is strange considering we're not a cup contender. These may become a huge problem going forward and I'd like to hear Holland's reasoning behind them. But if I had to guess it would be something like: I don't have much faith in our prospect pool, team is going to have a few rough years and we're opening a new arena and need to get butts in the seats; I guees I'll try to make it marketable as feel-good home-grown team filled with local players, hopefully these guys will do as a stop-gap long enough to draft a new core.

I don't see Holland as a perfect GM but I believe most of complaints about him are unwarrented. This team was the best team in the league last 25 years but the miracle isn't happenning so it is going down and people just can't accept. Instead we're grasping at straws and looking for a magic bullet to make it contender again. If we had a GM X, player Y and have done Z all this wouldn't happen and we would be contenders right now/in 2 years. Unfortunately there is no easy way out, all feasible options are unpleasant and painful. Only luck can change this team fortunes rapidly but you don't make decisions in hope of luck, you just put yourself in best position to recieve it while planning for none. Considering this I would cut Holland some slack, his biggest failure up to date is not pulling a miracle, let him show what he can do in this situation before firing him.

Speaking of magic bullets and returning to original topic, I don't think Yzerman is one. He did some sleek moves while he had no pressure to succeed but doesn't have much in results and he just missed playoffs while having a Norris finalist and top-5 forward. Say what you want about Holland but this never happened during his tenure.

There's been thousands of posts since 2010, it's not all hindsight.

 

[jkutswings]

There's been thousands of posts since 2010, it's not all hindsight.

And there have been plenty of suggestions along the way, to let some of the kids play a little more and a little sooner, instead of the Dan Clearys and David Legwands and Drew Millers of the world taking up cap space and assets and ice time for no good reason.

Without any hindsight, fans have been both vocal and helpful in offering ideas for a smarter transition than what has unfolded.

 

[Frk It]

I think the reality is it is tough to win in this league. A lot tougher than most realize, that Holland didn't go from one of the best GMs in the league to an idiot overnight.

I know that you were pretty adamant that coaches have a finite shelf life, and sometimes it is good to move on to get a new message and a new direction in the locker room. (Yes I know someone will hop on this and remind us the transition from Babcock to Blashill has been rough, like that is the only possible outcome for transitions)

Don't you think that the same can be true of a General Manager? I agree people take things too far quite often in calling him an idiot or incompetent, when he has had a wildly successful tenure here. I get you defending him for that reason. Although this is a message board and people will be reactionary, kind of the nature of the beast.

I don't think that he woke up one day an idiot (even though he frustrates me), but I do think several of his peers have passed by him, and are continuing to do so seemingly each year. I think that the landscape of the league is constantly changing, and what worked in 2005 won't work in 2015, and what worked in 2015 won't work in 2025... etc. Hell, probably even more in 5 year intervals as opposed to 10. Which is why I absolutely believe that a GM that was great 10 years ago, could be mediocre now. Actually, that's exactly how I would describe our situation. There's no areas that aren't being scouted anymore, there's no other teams that are overly loyal to homegrown players, there is a lot of things that he used to be able to lean on that just aren't advantageous practices anymore. I do think there is parity in the league, and it's more difficult than ever to find places to get a competitive advantage, but I mean that's his job man... and I just don't see him doing it.

 

[WaW]

Im a Holland defender and believe he should get a chance to head the rebuild, but I get why some fans (including alot of the younger ones) want him gone.

That said, Yzerman is the most overrated GM in the league. He's my favourite player of all time just as I imagine is the case for many of you...but the reality is that he's missed the playoffs 3 out of 7 years (essentially a "get in every second year" type of guy), and two of those 3 misses came in years where they were preseason favourites to get to the conference finals/cup finals. Oh, and he's always been in arguably the weakest division each season.

So yeah, loved Yzerman the player, FAR from impressed with Yzerman the executive.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know that you were pretty adamant that coaches have a finite shelf life, and sometimes it is good to move on to get a new message and a new direction in the locker room. (Yes I know someone will hop on this and remind us the transition from Babcock to Blashill has been rough, like that is the only possible outcome for transitions)

Don't you think that the same can be true of a General Manager? I agree people take things too far quite often in calling him an idiot or incompetent, when he has had a wildly successful tenure here. I get you defending him for that reason. Although this is a message board and people will be reactionary, kind of the nature of the beast.

I don't think that he woke up one day an idiot (even though he frustrates me), but I do think several of his peers have passed by him, and are continuing to do so seemingly each year. I think that the landscape of the league is constantly changing, and what worked in 2005 won't work in 2015, and what worked in 2015 won't work in 2025... etc. Hell, probably even more in 5 year intervals as opposed to 10. Which is why I absolutely believe that a GM that was great 10 years ago, could be mediocre now. Actually, that's exactly how I would describe our situation. There's no areas that aren't being scouted anymore, there's no other teams that are overly loyal to homegrown players, there is a lot of things that he used to be able to lean on that just aren't advantageous practices anymore. I do think there is parity in the league, and it's more difficult than ever to find places to get a competitive advantage, but I mean that's his job man... and I just don't see him doing it.

I think it is fair, I think you know how big of a Holland supporter I am. I have said for two years that big moves needed to be made. I think I posted that he needed to do some things in the 18 months or 2 year period, I expected him to and he didn't. We have expired on that and I was happy to see him sell at the deadline. That though is why I became open to him moving upstairs and going after a Fenton.

I have a guy that I am willing to hear we bumped Holland upstairs for. I think as of two off-seasons ago it was clear we had some problems. Before that I agreed with some of Holland's positions, but when Kronwall declined there was the real talking points the last two seasons. Before that there were some problems but you couldn't tear it apart with what we had, you had to hope to catch a lightning run with two 1Cs and a 1D.

A fresh set of eyes is great. The guy we are talking about in this thread isn't really a fresh set of eyes.... He is a Holland disciple, he has the same tendencies we are ******** about Blashill trying to copy Babcock too closely for. He passed up building a cup contending defense for a flashy winger, big whoops.

In any event I get the calls for change. I want somebody a heck of a lot better than Ryan Martin, Kris Draper or even Steve Yzerman to push him out. I guess they can sell the Stevie thing if they want and Holland moves upstairs, but Holland should be moving upstairs and have some input around here.

I also have horrible nightmares that Holland takes Lou's retirement spot with our biggest rival if we drum him out. That runs circles in the back of my head and makes me want to break into a cold sweat just typing it right now. I think he is still a valuable asset to this organization. He has an incredible hockey mind that I hope our next GM has access to. I have listed a guy I find acceptable to replace him. I don't think there are a lot of upgrades out there and they aren't put down when these complaints are made.

Is the Blashill thing working out great? No, it isn't but I think that is on Holland to help improve his situation as well. We are in a rough spot, we need to make some moves and adjustments. It doesn't mean these people are terrible. But when we were talking moving on from Babcock that conversation was different, we were discussing guys that had strong resumes at the time. Yzerman makes sense there depending on how you view his resume. But still never been huge on fire this guy or move on from that guy without a plan.

Also in terms of underappreciated areas while most of the league seems to be paying less attention to the Czech Republic and Slovakia the Wings seem to be scouting that area harder than anyone else. They have drafted the Q more and college. They are still going to underappreciated areas, they still have Hakan (Holland hire) over there to do big work, but I think you can see a shift in philosophy and certainly we are drafting different kind of NA guys since the changes to the staff there.

He has traditionally been a great developer of talent, it is time for him to step up and land more throughout the entire organization. He needs more help in the front office, more help on his coaching staffs and more help with his players. I hope he figures it out, he has earned the chance to try for sure.

 

[Fynn]

I think Yzerman has done far more as a GM than I expected him to, especially when you consider he was trained by Ken Holland.

What I like best about him as that he takes chances. He turned Cory Conacher into Ben Bishop. He traded a pouting old veteran who would only accept a trade to one team for a decent two way player, two number one picks and another draft pick. He did with Bishop what they Wings should have done with Howard. He handled the Drouin situation as well as possible. The Lightning aren't a team that's rebuilding, they're a team that is still stocked with good young players.

The rules have changed but I don't think Holland has. He deserved the opportunity to give the rebuild/retool a try and he has failed. Lombardi was fired in LA. Ray Shero was fired in Pittsburgh. Vancouver fired their GM. Murray was fired in Buffalo. What makes Holland more special?

There's dozens of things Holland could and should have done differently, but generally speaking, signing non superstar players to long term deals can't be done in the salary cap era. Neither can blind loyalty to players who don't deserve it. Jonathan Ericsson and Nik Kronwall don't "deserve" to say how and when they will leave. Decent players at one time who can't play any more. Thanks for all you've done. Here's a token job in the scouting department. Buh bye. He bungled the departures of Lidstrom and Datsyuk.

I can't see how anyone can be on board with Holland staying on at this point. What makes anyone think at this point Holland is going to do anything different than what he's always done?

 

[Winger98]

I also have horrible nightmares that Holland takes Lou's retirement spot with our biggest rival if we drum him out. That runs circles in the back of my head and makes me want to break into a cold sweat just typing it right now. I think he is still a valuable asset to this organization. He has an incredible hockey mind that I hope our next GM has access to. I have listed a guy I find acceptable to replace him. I don't think there are a lot of upgrades out there and they aren't put down when these complaints are made.

I'd lose some respect for Holland if he pulled that. The Wings have essentially been his pro hockey career and they have given him a lot of latitude to build and, likely, leave this team on his own terms.Maybe it's unfair of me, but I think at some point if he is asked to step aside, he needs to do with some grace and to pave the way for the next guy.

 

[Frk It]

A fresh set of eyes is great. The guy we are talking about in this thread isn't really a fresh set of eyes.... He is a Holland disciple, he has the same tendencies we are ******** about Blashill trying to copy Babcock too closely for. He passed up building a cup contending defense for a flashy winger, big whoops.

In any event I get the calls for change. I want somebody a heck of a lot better than Ryan Martin, Kris Draper or even Steve Yzerman to push him out. I guess they can sell the Stevie thing if they want and Holland moves upstairs, but Holland should be moving upstairs and have some input around here.

This is where we agree, and this is something I have to remind myself of as well. As eager as I am to move on from Holland, it can't be for just anyone. And I do not like any of the guys you list as alternatives, either. I'd like it to be someone less connected to the organization, and with a track record of either excellent drafting or savvy trades to their name.

I also have horrible nightmares that Holland takes Lou's retirement spot with our biggest rival if we drum him out. That runs circles in the back of my head and makes me want to break into a cold sweat just typing it right now. I think he is still a valuable asset to this organization. He has an incredible hockey mind that I hope our next GM has access to. I have listed a guy I find acceptable to replace him. I don't think there are a lot of upgrades out there and they aren't put down when these complaints are made.

I have a really hard time seeing the guy who preaches 'loyalty' ad nauseum going and doing something like that. I also agree with you that Holland should stick around as an advisor, since he could make some contributions, particularly in the scouting and front office hiring areas. My concern, however, would be that if we were to go with someone like Ryan Martin for example, if that wouldn't be just a ceremonial move where Holland is still actually calling the shots behind the scene. So I'm a little torn on that one.

Also in terms of underappreciated areas while most of the league seems to be paying less attention to the Czech Republic and Slovakia the Wings seem to be scouting that area harder than anyone else. They have drafted the Q more and college. They are still going to underappreciated areas, they still have Hakan (Holland hire) over there to do big work, but I think you can see a shift in philosophy and certainly we are drafting different kind of NA guys since the changes to the staff there.

Well my point was, I'm not even sure that's 'a thing' anymore... as far as area's being underappreciated. It seems like we are at the point with scouting where all teams have about the same representation of scouts in just about every area there is hockey players. I think we draft more of those types of players because our Euro scouts are better than our NA scouts, and has been the case for like 15-20 years now.

By the way - fun fact - Did you guys know we have a European scout that just turned 24 and has been employed by the DRW since he was 22 years old? Pretty crazy stuff.

I'd like to know who our WHL scout is, we almost never draft players from there. Should be interesting this year, since the OHL, USNTP, and Q had down years, and the WHL is the one league that has had a strong year.

 

[Fynn]

I'm not even a little bit worried about Holland leaving for another team. It might be a good career move for him and I don't think it would hurt the Wings in any way. He'd probably be great for a team like say Washington if they fail again this year to bring in complimentary pieces to get them over the top. Even if the Wings clean house, it will take years to be a contender again. Even if Holland were to start over at his age, and bigger if, was successful, it doesn't mean he can restore the Wings.

Hakan Andersson is a victim of his own success. He can't find diamonds in the rough anymore because there's multiple scouts from every team wherever he goes. They need the next Hakan Andersson to find the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg. That ship has sailed.