Proposal: Columbus/San Jose

[CBJFan19*]

Lol Werenski brings back a Mathews, Barkov, Eichel easy.

 

[mikeyp24]

But not all franchise Dman are equal. Just like while Drai could be considered that is he equal to McDavid? Both young signed to term 1Cs. What about something closer like Mathews and McDavid are they equal value because they are both young franchise centerman? So yes while you can get franchise D anywhere in the draft can you get a Werenski anywhere? He's a once every x years style of player.

And about trading a 1C for a 1D we literally did that. We traded our young 1C who out up 70pts for a kid who showed top pair potential. And we would pull that trigger every time again. So yes they do carry equal value.

 

[Byrral]

Lol Werenski brings back a Mathews, Barkov, Eichel easy.

I disagree that it would be so easy. Werenski would be a good piece to get the conversation started. Matthews is a franchise #1C on an ELC. No chance Zach alone gets him 1 for 1. Barkov is a small step below Matthews on a very friendly long term deal for a #1C. CBJ still adds to Werenski. Eichel's contract is too high for me but I doubt Buffalo trades him 1 for 1 unless Jack has some clubhouse issues they would like to get rid of. If issues aren't their concern they aren't trading him 1 for 1. But with that contract it would take less of a plus than the other two.

I agree with others that Thornton would be the best fit. But I don't know why he would ever waive his NMC to come to Columbus.

 

[CBJFan19*]

I disagree that it would be so easy. Werenski would be a good piece to get the conversation started. Matthews is a franchise #1C on an ELC. No chance Zach alone gets him 1 for 1. Barkov is a small step below Matthews on a very friendly long term deal for a #1C. CBJ still adds to Werenski. Eichel's contract is too high for me but I doubt Buffalo trades him 1 for 1 unless Jack has some clubhouse issues they would like to get rid of. If issues aren't their concern they aren't trading him 1 for 1. But with that contract it would take less of a plus than the other two.

You're aware Werenski is on an ELC right? Not only that but the contracts expire the same year.

Good try though.

 

[PucksOnNet]

You're aware Werenski is on an ELC right? Not only that but the contracts expire the same year.

Good try though.

You're aware that Matthews, Eichel, & Barkov are all much more valuable than Werenski right?

 

[CBJFan19*]

You're aware that Matthews, Eichel, & Barkov are all much more valuable than Werenski right?

Lol, good try but false. 1D have more value, than 1C. Especially franchise guys like Werenski that look like year to year all stars/all pros

 

[PucksOnNet]

Lol, good try but false. 1D have more value, than 1C. Especially franchise guys like Werenski that look like year to year all stars/all pros

Werenski isn't a franchise d-man, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[CBJFan19*]

Werenski isn't a franchise d-man, sorry to burst your bubble.

Lol the best young D Man in the game isn't a franchise D man? Haha delusional.

I guess Mathews isn't anywhere near a franchise C.

 

[PucksOnNet]

Lol the best young D Man in the game isn't a franchise D man? Haha delusional.

I guess Mathews isn't anywhere near a franchise C.

He's not the best young d-man in the game..take your homer goggles off.

 

[CBJFan19*]

He's not the best young d-man in the game..take your homer goggles off.

I mean the proven facts agree with me your opinion doesn't mean a whole lot.

There's a reason Mathews is always out played everytime he steps on the ice.

 

[Byrral]

You're aware Werenski is on an ELC right? Not only that but the contracts expire the same year.

Good try though.

Yes, I am aware of that he is on his ELC. I also am aware that he is a very good player. But I am also aware that he is not the franchise #1D as you are claiming him to be. He is a top pair offensive defenseman that needs some work on his discipline and defensive zone coverage. He is more likely a #2. Seth Jones has more value in that he does it on both sides of the ice as well as bring a physical element to his game. As much I like Zach and would not want the CBJ to trade him, this is what he is. You can believe what you want.

And just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make your opinion wrong or right. You don't have to be so snarky with every one of your posts.

 

[PucksOnNet]

I mean the proven facts agree with me your opinion doesn't mean a whole lot.

There's a reason Mathews is always out played everytime he steps on the ice.

What proven facts? You haven't stated any facts. Werenski is a very, very good player, he isn't a franchise d-man however, and he doesn't return one of Barkov, Matthews or Eichel in a 1 for 1 swap.

And what's with your obsession with Matthews?

 

[CBJFan19*]

Yes, I am aware of that he is on his ELC. I also am aware that he is a very good player. But I am also aware that he is not the franchise #1D as you are claiming him to be. He is a top pair offensive defenseman that needs some work on his discipline and defensive zone coverage. He is more likely a #2. Seth Jones has more value in that he does it on both sides of the ice as well as bring a physical element to his game. As much I like Zach and would not want the CBJ to trade him, this is what he is. You can believe what you want.

And just because someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make your opinion wrong or right. You don't have to be so snarky with every one of your posts.

He was a plus 15 as a 19 year old rookie and plus 8 so far this year. Jones doesn't have the same offensive value. #2? [mod]

 

[Viqsi]

Wait. There are seriously people here who are insisting that Matthews is already a franchise C but Werenski isn't and won't be a franchise D?

Talk about your double standards.

 

[mikeyp24]

What makes Z being a more offensive minded D mean he can' be a franchise D? Karlson for Christ sakes. Lindstrom... Werenski doesn't get enough credit for his actual defensive game. The man is one of the slickest guys at getting his stick in the passing lane I've seen in a long time. He blocks shots and has locked down some of the best in the game. He is not a top 30 shut down guy or anything but he is very good in his own end and has rarely made mistakes I can remember.

He started in college at 17, played well in one of the better NCAA conferences for hockey getting himself noticed but projected behind guys like Hanifan and Proverov. He then goes on to the WJC where I think he was the C (not sure I remember a letter though) and won the best defensive player award and that award isn't given out just for scoring points as a D because the player that won it the year before scored 0 points. He then ended his college time at Michigan as one of the best scoring D they had as just a sophoore and then breaks scoring records for a player his age in the playoffs before winning the AHL championship. After that he gets on the CBJ where most people thought he might get sheltered bottom pair minutes and he has a breakout season that an article was written about him at the end of the season how he had statistically the 5th best rookie season for a D in league history saying his career started off better then Orrs and Linstroms and 1 other big name guy I honestly forget who but it was a great article on the NHL website. Now this year even with the teams inability to score on the power lay he is leading the league for defensive goal scorers in his 2nd year. And he is not sacrificing any defense for that at all as we give up some of the least amount of points a game and he is the #2 minute muncher we have.

The thing is maybe the leafs wouldn't trade Mathews for Z... But would the jackets accept an offer of Mathews for Z? It's just as likely we would shut anything down the second his name is mentioned. Vacuum value Z is equal to Any of those C but at the end of the day team needs are the deciding factor and if a team traded say Mathews for Z they have greatly improved 1 thing by greatly hurting there other. Now the oilers could pulled the trigger if they believe in Drai but then are the CBJ ok with giving up a generational D talent for McDavid. I think we could take the hot because how loaded our D is and how well Murray and Jones play together as a top pair but I don't think EDM does it because they likely don't see Drai as a C the way he's always on McDavids wing.

End of the day you are lying to yourself if you don't think a kid with Werenskis pedigree and real life production and potential doesn't get you the forward version of himself in a 1C if both teams have a need for one and depth at the other. Jones/Johanson is the perfect example except Mathews/Werenski are on the next level up of talent.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Wowee I had no idea Werenski was so overrated by Jackets fans.

 

[mikeyp24]

Wowee I had no idea Werenski was so overrated by Jackets fans.

How is he being overrated? Is McDavid overrated by oilers fans? What about him is being overrated because I don't see it. He's leading all defenders in goals and not having it inflated by PP scoring. He's playing top pair D and has never looked out of place. How many 19yo D come in playing top pair and scoring nearly 50pts as a rookie then start the next year off by leading the league in goals while actually doing their job as a defender and not doing a Burns 4th forward type deal... because to me it seems like he is getting grossly underrated. Centers are given way way way too much credit on these boards if a player Zs caliber is considered less then and needing significant adds to get to the Value of a Barkov. It's one thing of you are saying Mathews or McDavid who 1 will be able to put up 100pts and the other 40+ goals but Barkov who is a great young 2wayC being valued more is rediculous.

 

[SnarkAttack]

How is he being overrated? Is McDavid overrated by oilers fans? What about him is being overrated because I don't see it. He's leading all defenders in goals and not having it inflated by PP scoring. He's playing top pair D and has never looked out of place. How many 19yo D come in playing top pair and scoring nearly 50pts as a rookie then start the next year off by leading the league in goals while actually doing their job as a defender and not doing a Burns 4th forward type deal... because to me it seems like he is getting grossly underrated. Centers are given way way way too much credit on these boards if a player Zs caliber is considered less then and needing significant adds to get to the Value of a Barkov. It's one thing of you are saying Mathews or McDavid who 1 will be able to put up 100pts and the other 40+ goals but Barkov who is a great young 2wayC being valued more is rediculous.

If you're gonna respond about how someone's not overrated, comparing them to McDavid may not be the way to start such an argument.

 

[mikeyp24]

If you're gonna respond about how someone's not overrated, comparing them to McDavid may not be the way to start such an argument.

Why? They are comparable just at different positions. Z in his 2nd year is leading defense in goals scored like McDavid lead his 2nd year in pts for a forward. Z missed some games his rookie year and didn't end up winning the Calder because someone else had a rediculous year like McDavid. Both players play a style that is transcendent tithe talent around them. McDavid with his speed and playmaking and Werenski playing what Torts calls the rover which is being able to be at the net front in the offensive zone as a D but still be the first one back to defend. The IQ that Z has to have to be in the right spot while having no defined place to be as a 20yo is pretty impressive.

 

[Juxtaposer]

If you're gonna respond about how someone's not overrated, comparing them to McDavid may not be the way to start such an argument.

Seriously.

 

[mikeyp24]

And you're both doing a good job of backing up your arguements... You haven't said one thing that has had anything to back up your opinion just saying someone is overrated doesn't make it true it's just a lazy argument when someone else makes a point you can't argue against so it devolves into "seriously"

 

[Pinkfloyd]

When Werenski wins some hardware, he can be compared to someone like McDavid. As for trade value, he hasn't done enough for most GM's to seriously consider pulling the trigger on a swap of Werenski for Barkov, Eichel, Matthews, or McDavid. But he's close in that regard, imo.

 

[Juxtaposer]

And you're both doing a good job of backing up your arguements... You haven't said one thing that has had anything to back up your opinion just saying someone is overrated doesn't make it true it's just a lazy argument when someone else makes a point you can't argue against so it devolves into "seriously"

1. The burden of proof lays with the person who makes the bold statement (ie “Werenski is the defenseman version of McDavid”), not the person who takes the reasonable position (ie Werenski is not the defenseman version of McDavid).

2. You act like you’ve made some unshakeable argument when in reality you just contradicted yourself all over the place. You took a shot at Burns (the reigning Norris winner, of all players) for being a “fourth forward” (which he isn’t...) but then turned around and praised Werenski for being a “rover”, which is literally the same thing. You waxed poetic about his goal totals when he’s shooting over 11%, which is insanity for a defenseman and is in no way sustainable. You admit that McDavid and Matthews are beyond Werenski but then you take a shot at Barkov, who is a point a game on a bad team and is a Selke caliber defensive player. You talk about how good Murray and Jones are as a top pair, but I thought Werenski played shutdown minutes? You said that Werenski is not a top-30 defensive guy in the league... but he’s also only scoring at a 45 point pace and is ~20th in the league in points among defensemen, and that’s considering his absurd shooting percentage. In what world is a player on a 45 point pace and who isn’t a top-30 defensive defenseman in the league considered equal to Connor McDavid?

 

[Viqsi]

Wowee I had no idea Werenski was so overrated by Jackets fans.

Gosh, I had no idea Couture was so overrated by Sharks fans.

See, we can do it too!

 

[mikeyp24]

1. The burden of proof lays with the person who makes the bold statement (ie “Werenski is the defenseman version of McDavid”), not the person who takes the reasonable position (ie Werenski is not the defenseman version of McDavid).

2. You act like you’ve made some unshakeable argument when in reality you just contradicted yourself all over the place. You took a shot at Burns (the reigning Norris winner, of all players) for being a “fourth forward” (which he isn’t...) but then turned around and praised Werenski for being a “rover”, which is literally the same thing. You waxed poetic about his goal totals when he’s shooting over 11%, which is insanity for a defenseman and is in no way sustainable. You admit that McDavid and Matthews are beyond Werenski but then you take a shot at Barkov, who is a point a game on a bad team and is a Selke caliber defensive player. You talk about how good Murray and Jones are as a top pair, but I thought Werenski played shutdown minutes? You said that Werenski is not a top-30 defensive guy in the league... but he’s also only scoring at a 45 point pace and is ~20th in the league in points among defensemen, and that’s considering his absurd shooting percentage. In what world is a player on a 45 point pace and who isn’t a top-30 defensive defenseman in the league considered equal to Connor McDavid?

I did make good arguments that you haven't rebutted about everything he has accomplished on the D side for his age. There is no D in the league right now that is Werenskis age or skill level that could be considered his equal. There are players that you can say are better defensively but those guys are defense only and while Werenski can shut a guy down those guys can't produce like him. Burns has literally played forward some years I don't know how you can say he doesn't play 4th forward at times. And the Norris has just turned into the D who scores the most award. The list of more recent Norris guys are Karlson, burns, and Subban... Subban won that trophy so that tells you it' no longer about who is shutting down players. And I never said Werenski is below Mathews or McDavid I said I can at least see an arguement with those 2 but not Barkov. He has yet to prove he is on that upper level yet and he has been around longer. And I said he wouldn't be top 30 shut down. There are guys playing #4 that are just pure Defenders with no offense and they can just stop you and those guys are also better then Karlsons and Burns and Doughtys. So yeah Werenski isn't that but neither is his competition. No idea what Murray has to do with anything other then unless you are agreeing he's a great underrated 2/3D. The way Werenski plays 11% could be sustainable. He doesn't just shoot pucks and hope for it to go in if it's going on net he is intelligent about it and he finds space in the defence to spot up where they don't expect him. And I'm again not arguing for points because that doesn't make you the best defender... That's why they need a new award for scoring defenders so the Norris can go back to being about defense. That's the thing is Z can shut down a Crosby and then score a goal on a off man rush right after. If you want to argue his offense the only thing to fight for is goals or primary assists because secondary assists mean nothing to me. That's why a ppg guy doesn't mean much to me unless it's because they can score or they are the primary playmaker.

Name one defender near Z's age who has his ability to play the game like him? You can't... but you can name 4 young 1Cs like we have with Barkov being included by you. The closest to Z is Jones and imo Jones is about the same level BUT has had more years to develop while Z is still growing and currently on that same level. Z is a generational D thats really all there is to say about it.