Colton Orr

[Duffman955]

Definitely need Orr this year. Without him, we will be picked on by every NE rival. Do we really want to have grabo fighting Niel?

 

[leafspring*]

The only thing I will say in Orr's defence the last 2 seasons, was he was totally marginalized by Ron Wilson and never had a chance to be part of the team, he was placed in a very difficult position of not making any mistakes and was not used properly in very limited mins. No one could succeed under these conditions.

This is strange since he had a very good first year under Wilson, when he actually used him a lot. Remember the season before when Luke Schenn was the team's toughest player where he was the kid that defended guys 10 years older. Just an embaressement to have to rely on a 18 kid do this.

Orr brought in instant respectability the following season, no one stepped on a Leafs jersey while he was in the line up, his knock outs of Carkner 3x and a broken Lucic nose are testaments of this. He had a very good initial season for the Leafs when he was used correctly. I also recall a game where Green was snooping around the Leafs net looking to run up the score, Orr flattened him. This is what he brings to a Leafs team, doesn't take losing well. To me we could use many more guys that display this trait. Will always thank him for this, not letting the Leafs jersey be trampled on.

Damn right, every word!

 

[samwitch]

I'd like to see Orr as the 13th forward for sure. One of the most intimidating players/fighters imo.

Komarov - Steckel - Brown
Orr

I would not mind this bottom six at all. Keep in mind that D'Amigo could very well push for one of those 3 spots (excluding Steckel's).

 

[number72]

Definitely need Orr this year. Without him, we will be picked on by every NE rival. Do we really want to have grabo fighting Niel?

He lost all use as an effective deterrent after Reimer was run.

 

[Hawaiinleaf]

Watching Carillio not fight reminds me of why Orr went after him. In the previous meeting wasnt Carillio running the Leafs?????? Orr was out that game i recall

 

[leafspring*]

You need to be team tough,and you need the nastiest bunch of skill you can assemble to be dominant. Testosterone wins. Tough guys should chip in also on third,and fourth lines imo.

Orr will be on the roster or we will be knocked around.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I already said all this stuff in the other Colton Orr/Toughness thread, and it still applies, so here goes.

Some of you guys are nuts. Orr a waste of a roster a spot? Wtf is everyone smoking?

The guy enforces like there was no tomorrow, he's one of the most destructive fighters in the NHL.

Last year he was sent down when he was semi-hurt. Recalling him would make him available to re-entry waivers. Rosehill can't enforce, Brown can't enforce.

We need an enforcer, yes the days of the heavyweights are almost over, but if you at least have a guy like that on the bench, it will make other teams think twice.

Burke should not have hired Wilson, he knew going in that Wilson likes euro style hockey, he was handcuffed. Hopefully now with Carlyle, Orr will have his roster spot back.

For anyone that says you don't need toughness to win, just look at Boston, LA, and to an extent this year, the Rangers and Devils.

Boston - Lucic, Thornton, McQuaid
NJ - Boulton, Janssen
LA - Westgarth, Clifford
NYR - Rupp, Prust, Bickel, Scott

Detroit hasn't had anything tough or even close to tough for a few years, and now they have Tootoo.

Even Montreal, the smurfs of the NHL realize you need some balls on your team, hence the re-signing Moen, White and signing Prust.

Rangers lose Prust and Scott, and promptly sign Asham and Haley.

Actually you can look at every team that made the playoffs, at least in the east, and every single one had AT LEAST 1 enforcer.

Heavyweights are becoming extinct, but there is still a huge need for enforcers, let's not fool ourselves.

Couldn't articulate this better and yes, Detroit haven't won anything lately with their smurf hockey. The East has significantly toughened up, if we have to rely on Brown, we will be in trouble. I would happily drop Brown and or Rosie for Orr. Orr is the only Leaf at the moment that will keep the opposing team honest.

Want to ask Kessel who he would like watching his back? Just watch his reaction when Orr fights.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You need to be team tough,and you need the nastiest bunch of skill you can assemble to be dominant. Testosterone wins. Tough guys should chip in also on third,and fourth lines imo.

Orr will be on the roster or we will be knocked around.

Orr gives guys like Kessel, Dion, Lupul more room. Dion is often asked to drop his gloves after he lays out a big hit, I think he held back a few times due to this. With Orr riding shotgun for Dion, I think you will see an even nastier Dion next season. To simply say Orr cannot play in this league anymore based on his injury and his marginalizing last year is not fair, especially when he was so effective for Rennie and Wilson in his first year as a Leaf. He doesn't take bad penalities, and he is defensively sound. The only knock on him is his skating, however I don't know many heavyweights that are great skaters so he's in the same boat as others. Orr is a valuable guy IMO if a coach uses him correctly.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Damn right, every word!

Thanks!

 

[showtime8]

Orr gives guys like Kessel, Dion, Lupul more room. Dion is often asked to drop his gloves after he lays out a big hit, I think he held back a few times due to this. With Orr riding shotgun for Dion, I think you will see an even nastier Dion next season. To simply say Orr cannot play in this league anymore based on his injury and his marginalizing last year is not fair, especially when he was so effective for Rennie and Wilson in his first year as a Leaf. He doesn't take bad penalities, and he is defensively sound. The only knock on him is his skating, however I don't know many heavyweights that are great skaters so he's in the same boat as others. Orr is a valuable guy IMO if a coach uses him correctly.

You bring up a couple good points here and you've said it very well on this topic, so I applaud you Interactif.

I'd like to comment on being team tough first. It just won't happen with the current Leafs team. As much as I would love to see that with them, they just don't have the players that will allow for this to happen. 2 guys on a team that will fight isn't nearly enough. And that kind of leads into my next point...

The Leafs have, for the past multiple seasons, used players out of their natural position. What are you thinking putting Matt Lombardi on a 4th line checking role, when as you eluded to in previous posts, Colton Orr provided quality minutes and protection for the team. That also includes some unnecessary penalties, but I could handle some here and there if he's going to bring a spark. Then you have Bozak playing 1st line minutes which has been beaten to death, but furthers my point of asset management.

The Leafs need to start playing their players where they should be playing regardless of salary.

 

[Duffman955]

Honestly, I would rather have Orr on the team than Brown. Brown fights, but he doesn't deter teams from taking liberties on the leafs skilled players. Orr on the other hand scares the **** out of the opposition. Besides fighting, nither Orr or Brown bring much to the team besides hits.

I would like to see the leafs pick up an effective 4th line checker that can play the game as well as stuck up for team mates. Someone like Ryan Carter.

Carter-Steckel-Orr

Awesome 4th line.

 

[Hawaiinleaf]

Devane could be a dark horse to make 4th line. He is a very good skater for a physically huge guy and he can score not just hammer players with hits or his fists. He is very good at board battles and has the wheels few big players have. Very hard worker apparantly and Burke loves him. Can only imagine Devane Komorov Orr out there playing Boston , Ottawa, Philly

 

[Daikov]

The notion that an enforcer improves a team by acting as a kind of deterrent and/or a source of intimidation has always seemed like dubious logic to me.

Dion is often asked to drop his gloves after he lays out a big hit, I think he held back a few times due to this. With Orr riding shotgun for Dion, I think you will see an even nastier Dion next season.

How exactly does Orr ride shotgun for Dion? What if Orr isn't on the ice when Dion lays out a big hit (very probable, given how little ice time fourth line enforcers tend to see)? Is Orr going to come over the boards with the express purpose of beating the hell out of any player jonesing for a fight? That's a penalty - rule 70.1.

Let's say Orr is on the ice. What if the players harrassing Dion refuse to drop the gloves with Orr? Cowardly move? Sure. But it's entirely within their right to refuse. If they do, Orr can't attack them without taking an instigator penalty - rule 46.11.

Grit and toughness are crucial, and I wish the Leafs had more of it. But I'd rather they have it in the form of a group of vicious forecheckers/backcheckers, who will furiously hit, pursue the puck, dig along the boards, and go to the net with authority when they have possession, all with the intent of wearing down the opposition and scoring more goals (i.e., contributing to things that will actually win you a hockey game). Colton Orr doesn't exactly qualify.

Enforcers only fight other enforcers/heavyweights. It's a sideshow. The rules insulate everyone else from their attempts to initiate an alteraction. They are largely unnecessary, and fast losing relevance in this league, as Burke has already publicly lamented.

 

[showtime8]

The notion that an enforcer improves a team by acting as a kind of deterrent and/or a source of intimidation has always seemed like dubious logic to me.



How exactly does Orr ride shotgun for Dion? What if Orr isn't on the ice when Dion lays out a big hit (very probable, given how little ice time fourth line enforcers tend to see)? Is Orr going to come over the boards with the express purpose of beating the hell out of any player jonesing for a fight? That's a penalty - rule 70.1.

Let's say Orr is on the ice. What if the players harrassing Dion refuse to drop the gloves with Orr? Cowardly move? Sure. But it's entirely within their right to refuse. If they do, Orr can't attack them without taking an instigator penalty - rule 46.11.

Grit and toughness are crucial, and I wish the Leafs had more of it. But I'd rather they have it in the form of a group of vicious forecheckers/backcheckers, who will furiously hit, pursue the puck, dig along the boards, and go to the net with authority when they have possession, all with the intent of wearing down the opposition and scoring more goals (i.e., contributing to things that will actually win you a hockey game). Colton Orr doesn't exactly qualify.

Enforcers only fight other enforcers/heavyweights. It's a sideshow. The rules insulate everyone else from their attempts to initiate an alteraction. They are largely unnecessary, and fast losing relevance in this league, as Burke has already publicly lamented.

Yea, I think that comes back to being team tough. Its like using the analogy of, which would you rather do... fight a single wolf or a pack of wolves? You'd be smarter to take on the single one. That's what its like playing the Leafs. Who's really going to step it up and fight on the team? When you play a team like Boston, everyone is willing to battle for every shift. As much as I hate the B's, I love the way they play and its intimidating knowing that if you aren't going to fight Lucic that night, it might be Chara, Boychuk, Seidenberg, McQuaid, Thornton, etc.

Tough for the Leafs to only rely on one guy.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The notion that an enforcer improves a team by acting as a kind of deterrent and/or a source of intimidation has always seemed like dubious logic to me.



How exactly does Orr ride shotgun for Dion? What if Orr isn't on the ice when Dion lays out a big hit (very probable, given how little ice time fourth line enforcers tend to see)? Is Orr going to come over the boards with the express purpose of beating the hell out of any player jonesing for a fight? That's a penalty - rule 70.1.

Let's say Orr is on the ice. What if the players harrassing Dion refuse to drop the gloves with Orr? Cowardly move? Sure. But it's entirely within their right to refuse. If they do, Orr can't attack them without taking an instigator penalty - rule 46.11.

Grit and toughness are crucial, and I wish the Leafs had more of it. But I'd rather they have it in the form of a group of vicious forecheckers/backcheckers, who will furiously hit, pursue the puck, dig along the boards, and go to the net with authority when they have possession, all with the intent of wearing down the opposition and scoring more goals (i.e., contributing to things that will actually win you a hockey game). Colton Orr doesn't exactly qualify.

Enforcers only fight other enforcers/heavyweights. It's a sideshow. The rules insulate everyone else from their attempts to initiate an alteraction. They are largely unnecessary, and fast losing relevance in this league, as Burke has already publicly lamented.

I'll have a more comprehensive reply when I get home but to answer your question partially, you don't need to be on the ice to deter.

The mere threat is enough at times. Ask Sundin what Domi meant to his career.

One of the best tactics Domi always would do in protecting our star players, is when it looked like when the other team started taking liberties with our star players. He would tell the opposing team if you don't want Yashin ran so to speak, you better not come 10 ft of Mats tonight. That's a classic enforcer technique and this is how you deter when you are not on the ice when Dion lays someone out. You call their bluff, and later when Orr takes a skate you go over and whisper in that player's ear.

 

[showtime8]

I'll have a more comprehensive reply when I get home but to answer your question partially, you don't need to be on the ice to deter.

The mere threat is enough at times. Ask Sundin what Domi meant to his career.

One of the best tactics Domi always would do in protecting our star players, is when it looked like when the other team started taking liberties with our star players. He would tell the opposing team if you don't want Yashin ran so to speak, you better not come 10 ft of Mats tonight. That's a classic enforcer technique and this is how you deter when you are not on the ice when Dion lays someone out. You call their bluff when later when Orr takes a skate and whispers in that player's ear.

Yea that's a good point too. Gretzky didn't always play with McSorley, but people knew if you were going to hit Wayne, then you knew what you had to step up too.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yea that's a good point too. Gretzky didn't always play with McSorley, but people knew if you were going to hit Wayne, then you knew what you had to step up too.

Most effective deterrant is a mere threat, one game Ojick was about to pop Gilmour. Granted they were on the ice at the same time but Wendel grabbed Bure not Ojick and said to Gino if you touch Dougie Bure is dead.

Gretzky was never touched in Edmonton and he played with Kurri and Semenko 5 shifts a year?

 

[Daikov]

One of the best tactics Domi always would do in protecting our star players, is when it looked like when the other team started taking liberties with our star players. He would tell the opposing team if you don't want Yashin ran so to speak, you better not come 10 ft of Mats tonight. That's a classic enforcer technique and this is how you deter when you are not on the ice when Dion lays someone out. You call their bluff, and later when Orr takes a skate you go over and whisper in that player's ear.

This is called "talking tough," and means absolutely nothing at all coming from a boxer like Colton Orr.

I struggle to see how any verbal threat is an effective deterrent in a league that would punish any player for taking things too far. The fact remains that if you don't want to fight an enforcer, you don't have to fight them, no matter how much of a pest you've been. So the only other way a threat of this nature carries any weight is if the player uttering it can hurt you in some other fashion (a dangerous hit, for example). Domi was capable of these. Orr generally isn't. He's too slow. But even then, you're playing with fire (particularly now that hits to the head - especially those dished out by disposable fourth liners - are being carefully policed by Shanahan).

Yea that's a good point too. Gretzky didn't always play with McSorley, but people knew if you were going to hit Wayne, then you knew what you had to step up too.

League rules were different in McSorley's day.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Hey Hockeyfanz...

I suppose you feel fine watching Schenn get tuned in his first 2 years by other teams tougher players who were doing what they wanted with our "stellar" small talents

How about watching our team hide during the severe beatdown by Boston and Philly this year??

Chris Neal laying a beating on our skilled centre Gabo last year make you happy??? the Ottawa bench was all standing laughing, or did you not know that??? It was a joke about the Leafs last year

Any suggestions perhaps to change the style of play you appear to enjoy

Hey Hawaiinleaf...

I suggest you watch NHL playoffs when hockey is at its toughest and most gruelling.....I don't recall seeing any "Colton Orrs" playing in the Stanley Cup finals this year or last. Wake up brother. Hockey is not about beating the living snot out of the other teams goon. Its about speed, skill toughness and willingess/tenacity to win. Thats what most Cup winners have in common. Not icing goons on the fourth line that can barely skate to keep the other team honest.

Do you actually believe for one second that Colton Orr would get a regular shift IF the Leafs ever reach the post-season?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Most effective deterrant is a mere threat, one game Ojick was about to pop Gilmour. Granted they were on the ice at the same time but Wendel grabbed Bure not Ojick and said to Gino if you touch Dougie Bure is dead.

Gretzky was never touched in Edmonton and he played with Kurri and Semenko 5 shifts a year?

So I'm assuming you forgot about the time when Gilmour was almost killed by Marty McSorley? Or back in the day when Bobby Orr...the greatest player of all time was annihilated by Pat Quinn? How about the beauty....Wayne Gretzky getting knocked out cold by some Leaf rookie named McCreary??? I think....

Great players get pasted all the time. Kessel was knocked into another decade in his first game as a Leaf....Ohlund? Deterrant? Sure. Like saying capital punishment is a deterrent to murder. Call it what it is. Revenge. In the example I use of capital punishment I rather call it "paying a debt" but when a goon is meting out justice it is definitely revenge.

 

[seventieslord]

Im pretty sure he's done in the NHL

agree.

I disagree. In years past when his line got caught out on the ice against skilled guys, they were hemmed in their zone.

Absolutely. His relative Corsi has been last or bottom last on his team every year that it’s been tracked:

2012: -38.4, 4X as far into the negative as anyone else (Lombardi) – this is only based on 5 games though
2011: -22.1, next worse Brent -16.6 and Brown -16.2
2010: -23.1, twice as far into the negative as anyone else (Primeau)
2009: -17.6, tied with Korpikoski for last on NYR
2008: -17.3, just a bit better than Hollweg’s -17.8 (this is nothing to brag about!)

Other players can be up and down. Orr’s always down. I don’t have the time or desire to do it but if you were to do a Leaf Corsi sheet based on the last 3 seasons you would see how horrible he has been compared to his teammates.

Orr is freaking useless and always has been . His 4 mins a night will never be missed . If Burke wants an enforcer he has to find a Thornton type who can at least play bottom line minutes .

Thornton, now there’s a great 4th liner.

If it was up to HF board to create our starting line up we would have a 1 dimensional group up front with 12 offensive forwards. Look at all the top teams in the east, they all had enforcers during the 82 game season. The only time a enforcer is not needed is playing another soft team in the playoffs.

Last season :

NYR - Bickel, Rupp
Boston - Thornton, Macdermid
Florida - Barch
Flyers - Shelley, Sestito
Penguins - Engelland, Mac
NJ - Janssens, Boulton
Ottawa - Carkner, Neil, Konopka, Smith

The evidence that enforcers are useful in a 82 game season is obvious. But there all always those oblivious people that debate knowing they are wrong.

Orr starts next season.

Many of those guys can play decent hockey.

All I can say is that I can't wait for Ashton/Ross/Biggs to be pushing their way onto this team. 1 may bust, but odds are we should get 2 decent NHLers out of that group, maybe all three.

Odds are we get 1.

 

[seventieslord]

Orr gives guys like Kessel, Dion, Lupul more room. Dion is often asked to drop his gloves after he lays out a big hit, I think he held back a few times due to this. With Orr riding shotgun for Dion, I think you will see an even nastier Dion next season. To simply say Orr cannot play in this league anymore based on his injury and his marginalizing last year is not fair, especially when he was so effective for Rennie and Wilson in his first year as a Leaf. He doesn't take bad penalities, and he is defensively sound. The only knock on him is his skating, however I don't know many heavyweights that are great skaters so he's in the same boat as others. Orr is a valuable guy IMO if a coach uses him correctly.

Even if Orr only plays when Dion plays, their TOI indicates that at any given time that Phaneuf throws a big hit, there's a 1/6 chance Orr would be on the ice. If Orr's ice time is more random, this goes to about 1/13. So even if this is a benefit (which I highly doubt), Phaneuf would rarely get to be the beneficiary.

 

[seventieslord]

I'll have a more comprehensive reply when I get home but to answer your question partially, you don't need to be on the ice to deter.

The mere threat is enough at times. Ask Sundin what Domi meant to his career.

One of the best tactics Domi always would do in protecting our star players, is when it looked like when the other team started taking liberties with our star players. He would tell the opposing team if you don't want Yashin ran so to speak, you better not come 10 ft of Mats tonight. That's a classic enforcer technique and this is how you deter when you are not on the ice when Dion lays someone out. You call their bluff, and later when Orr takes a skate you go over and whisper in that player's ear.

Domi could skate, and could catch Yashin. Orr can't skate.

 

[seventieslord]

Hey Hawaiinleaf...

I suggest you watch NHL playoffs when hockey is at its toughest and most gruelling.....I don't recall seeing any "Colton Orrs" playing in the Stanley Cup finals this year or last. Wake up brother. Hockey is not about beating the living snot out of the other teams goon. Its about speed, skill toughness and willingess/tenacity to win. Thats what most Cup winners have in common. Not icing goons on the fourth line that can barely skate to keep the other team honest.

Do you actually believe for one second that Colton Orr would get a regular shift IF the Leafs ever reach the post-season?

He wouldn't get a shift, let alone a regular one.

 

[Hawaiinleaf]

Boston Los Angelas both had 6 physical players and won cup...

Toronto has one Brown

So until we get a new lineup Orr might be a good idea..