Player Discussion Colin White - C/RW

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Sweatred

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I think that had less to do with the actual terms of the contract and more to do with the fact that he was the first Senator to sign a long-term deal in a long-time, after we had just watched Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Dzingel and others choose not to re-sign and left via trade.

Maybe ? It definitely was a factor.... many also wanted to keep MD and even RD. You can read the posts on the CW contract thread. There are more references to “what a great deal” than “I’m glad we signed someone, even if it is an over payment”. People still scream about any reference about White being a bad contract.... no one cares if we say BoroCop sucks or Zack Smith was over paid.

Rank White as a RW in this org -
With Batherson, Dadonov, Brown, and Watson.

or a Center with CT, Norris, Arti, TS, and Brown.

if he doesn’t improve he fighting to be a 4C or 4RW.
 

aragorn

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How many times have we seen a centre win a faceoff, but the other team end up getting possession because the defenceman/forward wasn't ready or got beat to the puck or outworked for the puck? If the centre wins the faceoff, but the other team gained possession does the centre get credited for winning the faceoff or not get credit because his team lost possession? I've seen & heard on more than one occasion where a centre wins the face off, but the other team won possession, yet the commentator gave the other centre credit for winning the faceoff when it was actually the forward or defencemen who won the puck possession battle.

Sometimes it's a toss up as to who wins the faceoff because a scrum occurs & bodies are falling all over the place with multiple players touching or swiping at the puck who gets the faceoff win? These things are always so skewed in how they are reported & then there is the whole home team advantage to stats given by their hometown stats collectors. While I imagine these guys do the best they can & it's probably fairly close it's not exactly a perfect science & I think most fans are aware of this. Faceoff wins are not always all that clear.
 
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Sweatred

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How many times have we seen a centre win a faceoff, but the other team end up getting possession because the defenceman/forward wasn't ready or got beat to the puck or outworked for the puck? If the centre wins the faceoff, but the other team gained possession does the centre get credited for winning the faceoff or not get credit because his team lost possession? I've seen & heard on more than one occasion where a centre wins the face off, but the other team won possession, yet the commentator gave the other centre credit for winning the faceoff when it was actually the forward or defencemen who won the puck possession battle.

Sometimes it's a toss up as to who wins the faceoff because a scrum occurs & bodies are falling all over the place with multiple players touching or swiping at the puck who gets the faceoff win? These things are always so skewed in how they are reported & then there is the whole home team advantage to stats given by their hometown stats collectors. While I imagine these guys do the best they can & it's probably fairly close it's not exactly a perfect science & I think most fans are aware of this. Faceoff wins are not always all the clear.

I think the clearest indicator is simply “who does the coach use for important draws”.

When your stuck on the bench when the puck is in your end the coach doesn’t think your a good, reliable defensive player.
 
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Cosmix

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How many times have we seen a centre win a faceoff, but the other team end up getting possession because the defenceman/forward wasn't ready or got beat to the puck or outworked for the puck? If the centre wins the faceoff, but the other team gained possession does the centre get credited for winning the faceoff or not get credit because his team lost possession? I've seen & heard on more than one occasion where a centre wins the face off, but the other team won possession, yet the commentator gave the other centre credit for winning the faceoff when it was actually the forward or defencemen who won the puck possession battle.

Sometimes it's a toss up as to who wins the faceoff because a scrum occurs & bodies are falling all over the place with multiple players touching or swiping at the puck who gets the faceoff win? These things are always so skewed in how they are reported & then there is the whole home team advantage to stats given by their hometown stats collectors. While I imagine these guys do the best they can & it's probably fairly close it's not exactly a perfect science & I think most fans are aware of this. Faceoff wins are not always all the clear.

I suppose that the face-off draw stat should be graded as a win, loss or tie when it is clearly a scrum for the puck. Under that approach I wonder how many would be categorized as a tie.
 
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aragorn

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Maybe ? It definitely was a factor.... many also wanted to keep MD and even RD. You can read the posts on the CW contract thread. There are more references to “what a great deal” than “I’m glad we signed someone, even if it is an over payment”. People still scream about any reference about White being a bad contract.... no one cares if we say BoroCop sucks or Zack Smith was over paid.

Rank White as a RW in this org -
With Batherson, Dadonov, Brown, and Watson.

or a Center with CT, Norris, Arti, TS, and Brown.

if he doesn’t improve he fighting to be a 4C or 4RW.

I don't see White ever playing on the 4th line, I think they cut their losses first to try & salvage something from their investment in the guy. And with Pinto & Sokolov coming, I don't see him at RW either. IMO he either stays at centre & most likely on the 3rd line of a future team or they move him out if they end up drafting a centre who they think can replace him like Kent Johnson as an example or maybe even Huskins in next yr's draft. But both those guys could be a few yrs away from usurping him.

I think Anisimov should be moved this yr & Tierny too as soon as they can. If Stuetzle is moved to centre it could mark the end of White at centre, but I still think he stays on the wing for a while. The writing is definitely on the wall unless he ups his game somehow & starts to produce a little more on the scoreboard, defensively & in the faceoff circle. This is a critical yr for White & a couple more guys to show something.
 
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Sweatred

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I don't see White ever playing on the 4th line, I think they cut their losses first to try & salvage something from their investment in the guy. And with Pinto & Sokolov coming, I don't see him at RW either. IMO he either stays at centre & most likely on the 3rd line of a future team or they move him out if they end up drafting a centre who they think can replace him like Kent Johnson as an example or maybe even Huskins in next yr's draft. But both those guys could be a few yrs away from usurping him.

I think Anisimov should be moved this yr & Tierny too as soon as they can. If Stuetzle is moved to centre it could mark the end of White at centre, but I still think he stays on the wing for a while. The writing is definitely on the wall unless he ups his game somehow & starts to produce a little more on the scoreboard, defensively & in the faceoff circle. This is a critical yr for White & a couple more guys to show something.

I agree that he won’t see 4th line time ... I fear he’ll be forced into 1-2C roles for at least another year while Norris and Brown fight for scraps.

But if you sort out our RW and C positions it’s not hard to justify White as a 4th liner. Everybody screams when I call him a 4th line or replacement player but no one will tell me they think White is better then Dadonov, Bath, Watson, or Brown.
 
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DJB

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I hate to say it but I think White is simply a bust.

I've been really hard on him since he got his contract and he needs to show something for it.

I think injuries and being rushed played a huge factor in stunting his development.

A shame because I liked him D - 1
 
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Sweatred

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I hate to say it but I think White is simply a bust.

I've been really hard on him since he got his contract and he needs to show something for it.

I think injuries and being rushed played a huge factor in stunting his development.

A shame because I liked him D - 1

I think the org needs to form the player relative to the skill set he has shown. He’s not a distributor, he’s not a shooter. He has good legs and if he will get stronger (apparently he has) and learn to play an aggressive physical game he may be able to retain some value as a bottom 6 Center who can play up the lineup.

As it stands he has Replacment level puck distribution, puck protection, face offs, physicality, shooting etc and that doesn’t cut it as a top 9 player. Fingers crossed, I hope we see something from him and he doesn’t blook Norris/Brown.... wouldn’t be the worst thing if Seattle grabs him.
 
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JD1

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I hate to say it but I think White is simply a bust.

I've been really hard on him since he got his contract and he needs to show something for it.

I think injuries and being rushed played a huge factor in stunting his development.

A shame because I liked him D - 1

When did becoming a full time NHL player in your D+4 season constitute being rushed? There are 30 guys from his draft year that have played more NHL games than White.
 

DJB

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When did becoming a full time NHL player in your D+4 season constitute being rushed? There are 30 guys from his draft year that have played more NHL games than White.

He was already making NHL appearances D2 and the constant back and forth between Ottawa and the AHL was detrimental to his development.

He should have stayed in Boston College another season, then a full season in Belleville before making his NHL debut.

Instead, Dorion as usual is incapable of leaving his shiny toys under the tree and has to open up the packaging as quickly as possible.
 
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Sweatred

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When did becoming a full time NHL player in your D+4 season constitute being rushed? There are 30 guys from his draft year that have played more NHL games than White.

He was put through the “AHL lite” version of minor league development. The Sens moved him to the NHL (where he wasn’t very good) after 50 or so AHL points. Compare that to the development bar used for players like Brown, Norris, Form, Balcers etc. Those players have greatly exceeded White’s AHL development (and hopefully are better for it).

The following camp they stuck White with Stone who along with MD, MH, RD, TC etc carried him to the 14G season covering up a lot of the weaknesses in his game (strength, puck protection, puck distribution etc).

Next came $26 million reasons to put the feet up over the off season and he had a clunker of a season. It appears the negativity around his season has at least encouraged him to build some strength but we have still have a player who doesn’t have A defined role. He hasn’t been developed into a gritty tough C and he isn’t a 1-2C. He’s probably the teams 4-5 best RW. Squeezing back into 1C just wastes time as Norris, Brown, Stutzle or who ever should unroot him easily IF given a chance.

It’s time for Brown or Norris to get the shiny new toy treatment (top wingers) and White learns to play gritty, tough hockey. Either that or fall on your sword with White and move Brown... which feels silly to consider.
 
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The Devilish Buffoon

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I hate to say it but I think White is simply a bust.

I've been really hard on him since he got his contract and he needs to show something for it.

I think injuries and being rushed played a huge factor in stunting his development.

A shame because I liked him D - 1
A bust in what sense? That he isn't a top 6er, a top 9er, or an NHL player at all?

I've never been super high on White, I think even Sweatred himself will vouch that I am pretty clear-eyed and critical when it comes to the kid, but there are good elements there. His speed was very impressive in his rookie year, he was constantly moving his feet and trying to find open space in the offensive zone, hounding pucks on the forecheck, he was attacking with changes of pace and direction, and he was playing around the net. His shot is ok, nothing elite but far from a muffin, and his passing is obviously not a strong suit, but not inept either.

If he can bring one of the following:
a) improved consistency
b) improved defensive play
c) improved physical play

He's easily a top 9er who can contribute and be challenging to play against. He's not there yet on a consistent basis, and I'd agree that for most of last year, he played like a 4RW. He certainly could have benefitted for a longer stretch at the AHL level upon returning from his injury. But to act like the components are not there, or have not been shown at the NHL level, is disingenuous and inaccurate IMO.
 
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DJB

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A bust in what sense? That he isn't a top 6er, a top 9er, or an NHL player at all?

I've never been super high on White, I think even Sweatred himself will vouch that I am pretty clear-eyed and critical when it comes to the kid, but there are good elements there. His speed was very impressive in his rookie year, he was constantly moving his feet and trying to find open space in the offensive zone, hounding pucks on the forecheck, he was attacking with changes of pace and direction, and he was playing around the net. His shot is ok, nothing elite but far from a muffin, and his passing is obviously not a strong suit, but not inept either.

If he can bring one of the following:
a) improved consistency
b) improved defensive play
c) improved physical play

He's easily a top 9er who can contribute and be challenging to play against. He's not there yet on a consistent basis, and I'd agree that for most of last year, he played like a 4RW. He certainly could have benefitted for a longer stretch at the AHL level upon returning from his injury. But to act like the components are not there, or have not been shown at the NHL level, is disingenuous and inaccurate IMO.

Hes too soft and doesn't play well enough defensively to be a bottom 6 guy, and his offense is nowhere near a top 6 guy. Where does he fit?

White is a fringe 12th/13th forward until he proves otherwise.

Name me one thing that White does really well that helps and contributes for the Sens nightly.

I'll wait.
 
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Sweatred

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Hes too soft and doesn't play well enough defensively to be a bottom 6 guy, and his offense is nowhere near a top 6 guy. Where does he fit?

White is a fringe 12th/13th forward until he proves otherwise.

Name me one thing that White does really well that helps and contributes for the Sens nightly.

I'll wait.

I have no idea where the idea comes from where so many people think he is hard to play against. I agree 100% with you. He’s probably the softest player in the lineup yet 90% of this board thinks he is gritty/tough/top 9 worthy.

That being said I’d love to see the Sens develop him into a potential 3C and get him away from 1-2C. If he fails and can’t do it (toughen up) drop him.
 
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Micklebot

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He was already making NHL appearances D2 and the constant back and forth between Ottawa and the AHL was detrimental to his development.

He should have stayed in Boston College another season, then a full season in Belleville before making his NHL debut.

Instead, Dorion as usual is incapable of leaving his shiny toys under the tree and has to open up the packaging as quickly as possible.

What...

He got 2 games after his draft +2 season in the ncaa was complete, not sure why you think another season in the NCAA was warranted, and his 3 callups in Jan to Mar to finish off the 2017-18 season is not unusual for a top prospect in their draft +3 season.

I'm also not sure what you're expecting, his 2018-19 rookie season was as good as you can expect for a late first, but because he had a disapointing sophomore season, now he was rushed?
 

The Devilish Buffoon

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Hes too soft and doesn't play well enough defensively to be a bottom 6 guy, and his offense is nowhere near a top 6 guy. Where does he fit?

White is a fringe 12th/13th forward until he proves otherwise.

Name me one thing that White does really well that helps and contributes for the Sens nightly.

I'll wait.

His defense isnt atrocious, its just not good enough to be a C (in conjunction with the fact that he's weak on faceoffs). That said, your critiques are exactly what I outlined as needing improvement.... too soft, not consistent enough, and not good enough defensively. You say White is a fringe 12th/13th forward, I said last year he played like a 4RW... your tone conveys a big confrontation but I addressed literally everything you brought up in your post.

As for your questions:
1) As I said, all he needs is to improve in one area and he will be a viable 3rd liner. You don't need to be a shutdown player to play on a 3rd line.
2) There are very few players who contribute nightly and even fewer guys who do so when they are 21/22. What you are describing is a "special player" which White is not and never was supposed to be. When White is playing well, though, he does all the things I outlined above. No need to wait.

I have no idea where the idea comes from where so many people think he is hard to play against. I agree 100% with you. He’s probably the softest player in the lineup yet 90% of this board thinks he is gritty/tough/top 9 worthy.

That being said I’d love to see the Sens develop him into a potential 3C and get him away from 1-2C. If he fails and can’t do it (toughen up) drop him.

White certainly isn't tough or gritty, and I'm not sure I've seen much of that expressed, but in his rookie year he was a very active and competent forechecker. Not physically, but he got his stick in lanes, on guys sticks, and on the puck. When he was struggling offensively last year and not doing that, that to me was the biggest disappointment. But, to me, that is a matter of will, and if the will is there, he will get back to doing that. Offense, who knows.... will doesnt go as long a way with offense, although it certainly can help a lot.
 
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DJB

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His defense isnt atrocious, its just not good enough to be a C (in conjunction with the fact that he's weak on faceoffs). That said, your critiques are exactly what I outlined as needing improvement.... too soft, not consistent enough, and not good enough defensively. You say White is a fringe 12th/13th forward, I said last year he played like a 4RW... your tone conveys a big confrontation but I addressed literally everything you brought up in your post.

As for your questions:
1) As I said, all he needs is to improve in one area and he will be a viable 3rd liner. You don't need to be a shutdown player to play on a 3rd line.
2) There are very few players who contribute nightly and even fewer guys who do so when they are 21/22. What you are describing is a "special player" which White is not and never was supposed to be. When White is playing well, though, he does all the things I outlined above. No need to wait.



White certainly isn't tough or gritty, and I'm not sure I've seen much of that expressed, but in his rookie year he was a very active and competent forechecker. Not physically, but he got his stick in lanes, on guys sticks, and on the puck. When he was struggling offensively last year and not doing that, that to me was the biggest disappointment. But, to me, that is a matter of will, and if the will is there, he will get back to doing that. Offense, who knows.... will doesnt go as long a way with offense, although it certainly can help a lot.

Thank you for answering and agreeing with me. White doesn't contribute much of anything.

The offense for White isn't there and he isn't good defensively, he doesn't hit, he doesn't fight, hes soft in the corners, hes nothing special on face-offs, he doesn't play special teams....he does nothing.

Until he figures out that he's a 4th maybe if he's lucky a 3rd liner and needs to do all the little things to contribute, he deserves nothing more than to be in the press box.

His salary and age are the only two things keeping him in the lineup. That's it.
 
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Sweatred

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What...

I'm also not sure what you're expecting, his 2018-19 rookie season was as good as you can expect for a late first, but because he had a disapointing sophomore season, now he was rushed?

What’s your view of the difference (if any) between how Brown and Norris have been developed vs White ?
 
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Micklebot

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What’s your view of the difference (if any) between how Brown and Norris have been developed vs White ?

The big difference is White was able to do what was needed to stick in the lineup when called up. Brown, particularly in prior seasons, was often out of position in his own end, while White was better at following the system. Brown has better individual skill while White was playing a better team game and thats what endears you to coaches. There was also more room in the lineup for White, though that should change this season with Pageau out of the way.

We can all agree White had a bad season this year, he's going to need to find his game for a longer stretch than the last 10 games of a season, but this idea that he was rushed selectively omits the fact that he had a very succesful rookie season after a pretty gradual introduction to the NHL. 2 full years of college, about 70% of an AHL season, 21 games as a callup before finding a way to stick with the team is not rushing a player, it's a pretty normal path for a college player.
 

Sweatred

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The big difference is White was able to do what was needed to stick in the lineup when called up. Brown, particularly in prior seasons, was often out of position in his own end, while White was better at following the system. Brown has better individual skill while White was playing a better team game and thats what endears you to coaches. There was also more room in the lineup for White, though that should change this season with Pageau out of the way.

We can all agree White had a bad season this year, he's going to need to find his game for a longer stretch than the last 10 games of a season, but this idea that he was rushed selectively omits the fact that he had a very succesful rookie season after a pretty gradual introduction to the NHL. 2 full years of college, about 70% of an AHL season, 21 games as a callup before finding a way to stick with the team is not rushing a player, it's a pretty normal path for a college player.

I guess that depends on what things you think he needs to do well...I think the only thing he did well his rookie year was slash from the rw and hit some open nets... I never saw the passing, physicality, or protection skills... maybe that’s where our view differs.

I see it the same as Jaros and Lajoie where one regime(Boucher + PD) glossed over some faults for a few points and another (DJ + PD) quickly recognized and addressed those weaknesses. Unfortunately , White already had his $26 million.
 
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FormentonTheFuture

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Where does this poor take of White not being good defensively come from? He's know for his two-way play rather than pure offense. He had one bad season, as many sophomores do. He's had plenty of time to rest and train now, too. We will see a much better player this season.
 

FormentonTheFuture

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The big difference is White was able to do what was needed to stick in the lineup when called up. Brown, particularly in prior seasons, was often out of position in his own end, while White was better at following the system. Brown has better individual skill while White was playing a better team game and thats what endears you to coaches. There was also more room in the lineup for White, though that should change this season with Pageau out of the way.

We can all agree White had a bad season this year, he's going to need to find his game for a longer stretch than the last 10 games of a season, but this idea that he was rushed selectively omits the fact that he had a very succesful rookie season after a pretty gradual introduction to the NHL. 2 full years of college, about 70% of an AHL season, 21 games as a callup before finding a way to stick with the team is not rushing a player, it's a pretty normal path for a college player.
He definitely wasn't rushed at all.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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I am looking forward to see how White comes back from a down year last year. I think too many are writing him off too quick. He was never a dangler so people looking to see that aspect will continue to be disappointed. He needed to get bigger and by the sounds of it he went on a lifting regime to get bigger and got up to 205, and dropped to 195 when he started back skating. He also said he got a little faster through that so it sounds like he was doing the right things. I am hoping he bounces back .. He's a pretty likable player imo.
 

Alf Silfversson

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I am looking forward to see how White comes back from a down year last year. I think too many are writing him off too quick. He was never a dangler so people looking to see that aspect will continue to be disappointed. He needed to get bigger and by the sounds of it he went on a lifting regime to get bigger and got up to 205, and dropped to 195 when he started back skating. He also said he got a little faster through that so it sounds like he was doing the right things. I am hoping he bounces back .. He's a pretty likable player imo.

He also played through a hip injury. I don't know the specifics of White's injury but I've had lots of nagging hip injuries the last few years and it really affected my core strength. Skating, battling, setting edges are all much more difficult. I can't even imagine trying to play against NHL players with a nagging hip injury. Players do it pretty regularly but some don't play through injuries as well as others. White may be one of those guys.
 

Micklebot

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He also played through a hip injury. I don't know the specifics of White's injury but I've had lots of nagging hip injuries the last few years and it really affected my core strength. Skating, battling, setting edges are all much more difficult. I can't even imagine trying to play against NHL players with a nagging hip injury. Players do it pretty regularly but some don't play through injuries as well as others. White may be one of those guys.
Certain injuries definately impact you more than others, hip issues though will impact almost everything you do, especially if your new injury related limitations gets in your head.
 
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