Player Discussion Colin White - C/RW

[SensFactor]

I had a dream that White broke out this season and had 35 goals and 50 assists.

 

[NyQuil]

Lots of excuses for White to go around ... his team sucked, his coach didn't like him. Sorta feels like your saying if it wasn't for that we would all see how good he really is ?

If there's enough ammunition on White not being a very good player, you shouldn't have to make things up to make your case.

That's all.

 

[Sweatred]

I had a dream that White broke out this season and had 35 goals and 50 assists.

Kaboom. that would be great for us.

 

[Sweatred]

If there's enough ammunition on White not being a very good player, you shouldn't have to make things up to make your case.

That's all.

The problem is... there isn't aside from a good eye test. 95% of this board loved the White signing. 95% also hated the EK trade and think EM is hording cash... but what did I make up ?

 

[BatherSeason]

The problem is... there isn't aside from a good eye test. 95% of this board loved the White signing. 95% also hated the EK trade and think EM is hording cash... but what did I make up ?

The biggest reason people liked the signing was because Melnyk actually signed a player to a long term deal. It was finally a step in the right direction.

 

[NyQuil]

The problem is... there isn't aside from a good eye test. 95% of this board loved the White signing. 95% also hated the EK trade and think EM is hording cash... but what did I make up ?

Well, to unpack this.

People hated the EK trade because he was the face of the franchise, had recently put up a monster playoff for the ages and it seemed to indicate that EM wouldn't pony up money to keep his star players. Sure, he sucked in San Jose, which is good for Dorion (and us), but if he turns it around, people will once again re-evaluate the trade.

People liked the Colin White signing because it showed commitment to our younger players. (along with Chabot) It also showed that our younger players were interested in staying here long-term despite the tire-fire management/ownership from time to time.

Eye-test is fine with respect to White but I'll need more before I give up entirely on a player after two seasons.

 

[Sweatred]

The biggest reason people liked the signing was because Melnyk actually signed a player to a long term deal. It was finally a step in the right direction.

So people like bad deals ? Just give $26 million to anyone ?

 

[Leafmealone11]

No, it really isn't.

It's acknowleging that there are many factors that go into production and when those variables are significantly altered, the comparison is not on equal grounds. It's not at all a contensious claim, it's actually pretty well established that playng on better teams under more offensive minded coaching/systems and with better linemates, it can influence production.

Sure one guy took over the team and basically the AHL the other was meh but it’s almost the same because one team was better than the other..it’s not enough to close the gap and it was in response to saying White out produced him at every level, one was a superstar in the AHL the other was average at best. He did not out produce him at every level

 

[Sweatred]

Well, to unpack this.


Eye-test is fine with respect to White but I'll need more before I give up entirely on a player after two seasons.

I've said this a million times and no one really believes me ... but we all need more time to evaluate White. More than anything I wish we made White grind out some success in the AHL like we did Bath, Brown, and Norris before bringing him up. Than bridge him and keep some incentive for him to continue to develop his game. Now he has his cash and we just sorta have to hope he figures things out.

 

[Micklebot]

How do you think Norris, Bath, Brown, or even Balcers could do playing with MD, MS, RD type players? Do you think they could play better than what we saw from White the last two years ?

Well, if they were to put up a 50pts pace like White did with that level of player, then we are in a very good place going forward.

 

[Sweatred]

Well, if they were to put up a 50pts pace like White did with that level of player, then we are in a very good place going forward.

White had 41 pts in 2018. (14/27) but that didn't really answer my question.

 

[NyQuil]

I've said this a million times and no one really believes me ... but we all need more time to evaluate White. More than anything I wish we made White grind out some success in the AHL like we did Bath, Brown, and Norris before bringing him up. Than bridge him and keep some incentive for him to continue to develop his game. Now he has his cash and we just sorta have to hope he figures things out.

I don't think this is a particularly controversial take. I tend to agree. I think Dorion felt like he was under the gun to show some stability and so the decision was made.

But you seem to think there's no hope and I'm willing to wait and see a little longer before giving up.

I honestly think the injury threw a giant wrench into his season. That's why I'm very interested to see how he does this year.

 

[Sweatred]

I don't think this is a particularly controversial take. I tend to agree. I think Dorion felt like he was under the gun to show some stability and so the decision was made.

But you seem to think there's no hope and I'm willing to wait and see a little longer before giving up.

I honestly think the injury threw a giant wrench into his season. That's why I'm very interested to see how he does this year.

I get why you would think that. I question what the best thing to do with the remaining $22million we owe him. The contract probably doesn't ever put up negative value but we are under the cap. That money could be used especially in 2-3 years. Even if he puts up 15G 30A type seasons at $6.25 it isn't really a good deal. So the question becomes if or when we move him. I would love a trade for Dumba but I doubt anyone takes White. That leaves expansion drafts or buyouts, or gambling that he turns out OK.

 

[Viletho]

I will say, the guys seem to be talking a lot about his "barrel"...

Mike Rielly: @aduclair10 barrel?
Duclair: Didn't think it could get worse

That said, I saw Boro in the offseason a few years ago and he had massive arms but looked fat. Looked more like a weight trainer than a hockey player. I dont think its unusual for these guys to have bellys in the offseason.... they lose a lot of weight in the winter and its hard to put on just muscle... easier to put on muscle and fat and then cut the fat later.

Let's be honest, there is few nhl players who are aesthetically good looking in term of muscles. So judging by picture is silly. Not pointing at you btw.

To gain muscle faster, you have to eat in an overall calorie surplus which will result in muscle growth ( if you train ) and fat if the surplus is too much. That is probably what most people do when bulking up instead on trying to make lean bulk. They don't have time for that. They have to gain weight fast.

I saw the pictures, i don't know if he takes training seriously. I will believe he does. But his nutrition might be crap which will result in fat because he over eat.

Calories in vs Calories out.

 

[NyQuil]

So the question becomes if or when we move him. I would love a trade for Dumba but I doubt anyone takes White. That leaves expansion drafts or buyouts, or gambling that he turns out OK.

Right, and in my original post, I said it was a moot point because no one is going to take him, or at least, not in any kind of deal that people would tolerate the return value.

And you don't buy out a guy with 2 seasons under his belt with a cheap owner.

 

[Sweatred]

Right, and in my original post, I said it was a moot point because no one is going to take him, or at least, not in any kind of deal that people would tolerate the return value.

And you don't buy out a guy with 2 seasons under his belt with a cheap owner.

I recall the buy out curve gives us another yes or two to evaluate his play. All of this could have been avoided with a proper development path. It’s not that much different from what the Sens did to Lajoie .. they just didn’t commit the $$$ and sent him back to complete his development instead of forcing things at the NHL level.[/QUOTE]

 

[NyQuil]

I recall the buy out curve gives us a no other yes or two to evaluate his play. All of this could have been avoided with a proper development path. It’s not that much different from what the Sens did to Lajoie .. they just didn’t commit the $$$ and sent him back to complete his development instead of forcing things at the NHL level.

Well, my time machine is in the shop so this is where we are.

 

[Micklebot]

White had 41 pts in 2018. (14/27) but that didn't really answer my question.

41 pts in 71 games or a 50 pts pace. Idk how they would do in the same citcumstances, i know none of them managed to stick with the nhl club when the team didn't have a stone duchene level player (not sure why Dzingle has suddenly found himself into the conversation, and certainly don't think he belongs).

What i am sure of is if any or all those guys could produce similarly to White as rookies under similar circumstances they are exceeding expectations.

 

[JD1]

If there's enough ammunition on White not being a very good player, you shouldn't have to make things up to make your case.

That's all.

That's my exact view on Melnyk as well. In Melnyk's case there's plenty of ammo

 

[Masked]

No debate Norris had a better season (not sure why he is even being compared) but White was on an AHL team that was the 5th lowest scoring and was 5th lowest the year before too(with 2 of those teams below them having played 8 less games) in the league with coach KK who preaches a grinders game while Norris joined a team that finished first in the league in goals by 23 goals and had been middle of the pack the year before, there is no question as to who was surrounded with more talent and in a better situation to produce offensively.

Norris didnt make Belleville good, Belleville was good and Norris was good.

Let's also not forget that White broke his wrist in training camp that season. Yes, I know Norris had shoulder surgery last off-season but he had time to prepare/rehab and have a full training camp. White was having to play catch when he returned from injury.

 

[Micklebot]

Let's also not forget that White broke his wrist in training camp that season. Yes, I know Norris had shoulder surgery last off-season but he had time to prepare/rehab and have a full training camp. White was having to play catch when he returned from injury.

Yeah it was in the rookie touney wasn't it? Either way he didn't have much of a training camp being injued in Mid Sep and playing his first game back in Nov.

 

[Sweatred]

Yeah it was in the rookie touney wasn't it? Either way he didn't have much of a training camp being injued in Mid Sep and playing his first game back in Nov.

Lots of excuses ... lots of lawnmowing hockey fans.... hes been in the NHL for almost 3 years now and he was drafted in 2015. You don't hear Norris using injuries as an excuse. He was out for 7-8 months and crushed the AHL.

 

[Micklebot]

Lots of excuses ... lots of lawnmowing hockey fans.... hes been in the NHL for almost 3 years now and he was drafted in 2015. You don't hear Norris using injuries as an excuse. He was out for 7-8 months and crushed the AHL.

So you think missing the end if the previous season and rehabing during an offseason prior to training camp is the same as missing traing camp and the start of the new season?

These aren't typically considered contenscious positions to hold, both injuries are relevant but one was more likely to have an impact come the start of the season since it interfered with training camp and didn't allow for the player to get into game form prior to playing competitive hockey.

The point being made is simply their situations are not analagous so treating them as such is intellctually dishonest.

 

[Sweatred]

The point being made is simply their situations are not analagous so treating them as such is intellctually dishonest.

Geez... Norris missed most of his season and barely played any games that year, he nearly missed a full season oh hockey. Enough of these "intellctually dishonesty" pokes in every response you make. It makes it impossible to have a conversation with you. You twist crap as much as anyone. Do you want me telling you that in every post?

Yes. I think Norris' injury could be used as an excuse for delayed development. But it isn't needed.

 

[Micklebot]

Geez... Norris missed most of his season and barely played any games that year, he nearly missed a full season oh hockey. Enough of these "intellctually dishonesty" pokes in every response you make. It makes it impossible to have a conversation with you. You twist crap as much as anyone. Do you want me telling you that in every post?

Yes. I think Norris' injury could be used as an excuse for delayed development. But it isn't needed.

Instead of claiming I'm twisting things and calling anything brought up an excuse, maybe offer up a reason why it would not have an impact or should not be considered?