Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: POWERPLAY GOALS, ZAR, EMPTY NETTERS

[Pittsburgh1776]

Kessel, our best winger at the time, played a lot more with Malkin than he did with Crosby. This alone is enough to destroy your weird conspiracy theory. Sometimes it's downright embarrassing to be a Malkin fan on this forum, so many excuses when he is not playing well. Maybe it's a reaction against a certain clown of a poster who literally posts nothing but rants against Geno and whining about how fans don't understand Sully's genius but two wrongs don't make it right.



Most of this forum said exactly that and some of Sully's "changes" were things like putting ERod on line 1.

Kessel was first tried with Crosby and it's widely accepted that Crosby didn't want to play with him. Neal was the same. I don't have a weird conspiracy. I watch how players are used and what the coach does to maximize their talent.

 

[radapex]

When Crosby is in a 'slump' no one says he needs to pull himself out of it. The coach makes changes.

When Crosby is in a slump, everyone says he needs to pull himself out of it. Go back through a bunch of the GDTs from this season until the most recent games and see how many people were ripping Crosby about needing to be better (and he absolutely needed to be better).

With the way Malkin looks on the ice this season, you could give him Ovi and Mark Stone and it won't make a difference. I don't know if his age is catching up to him, or if the lack of a training camp and preseason is hurting him... but he doesn't look good.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

When Crosby is in a slump, everyone says he needs to pull himself out of it. Go back through a bunch of the GDTs from this season until the most recent games and see how many people were ripping Crosby about needing to be better (and he absolutely needed to be better).

With the way Malkin looks on the ice this season, you could give him Ovi and Mark Stone and it won't make a difference. I don't know if his age is catching up to him, or if the lack of a training camp and preseason is hurting him... but he doesn't look good.

He might look a lot better with players that complement him. Maybe we should try it.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

If L1 is having issues, Sullivan makes changes. He doesn't let it flounder. He doesn't let players play there who don't fit. He makes changes until it works, and he doesn't hesitate to break up any line to get it done, including the best line in hockey. This does not happen with L2, ever. If you want to argue that, go ahead. I'll wait. I get it, Crosby is the star. But I don't expect a third line to be kept together while L2 flounders. Malkin is left to figure things out on his own or just play with a bad line until someone gets injured. I don't think that's a way to treat your other superstar. I think if the team keeps Sullivan, Malkin should leave after this year.

Line 1 was having issues to start the season.

The only change occurred when Rodrigues got hurt.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I mean, if anyone actually thinks Crosby wanted to play with Kessel (or Neal) and wasn't allowed to because they were on Malkin's line, you're high and I want some.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Line 1 was having issues to start the season.

The only change occurred when Rodrigues got hurt.

Look, I have 6 years of evidence from Sullivan alone to show what he does to help Crosby. Rust started the season with Malkin. Why not keep him there and try Zucker on L1?

 

[Icarium]

Kessel was first tried with Crosby and it's widely accepted that Crosby didn't want to play with him. Neal was the same.

Accepted by who exactly? Kessel and Crosby had some games together and did pretty well, IIRC, yet he wasn't put permanently on line 1. If you think putting Brandon Tanev is suddenly going to make Geno play like last year Geno, I have some bad news for you. I don't think even 2016 Hagelin can do it. Malkin has had some half-decent games with Zucker and Kapanen, the idea that they are making him that listless right now is wishful thinking.Remember that he had Rust on his line in the first few games and looked even worse than he looked today.

Speaking of Hagelin, boy, was he invisible today or what.

 

[DearDiary]

What's that picture behind his head?

It's Ryan Kesler

 

[radapex]

Kessel was first tried with Crosby and it's widely accepted that Crosby didn't want to play with him. Neal was the same. I don't have a weird conspiracy. I watch how players are used and what the coach does to maximize their talent.

Neal very, very rarely played with Crosby. Partly because his tenure as a Penguin coincided with Crosby's concussion/neck issues, but also because they never wanted to break the Malkin-Neal combination up. During his time with the Penguins, Neal played 237:40 with Crosby at 5v5 (9% of his total 5v5 TOI) and 1683:04 with Malkin at 5v5 (62% of his total 5v5 TOI). Of that, 53:37 was played with both Crosby and Malkin (1.9% of his total 5v5 TOI). That is over a span of 4.25 seasons and 199 GP.

The numbers were mostly similar for Kessel. In his 4 seasons and 328 games with the Penguins, he played 50% of his 5v5 minutes with Malkin vs 10% with Crosby, and only 1% with both of them. As we all know, Kessel did spent a fair bit of time on his own line away from either of them.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Look, I have 6 years of evidence from Sullivan alone to show what he does to help Crosby. Rust started the season with Malkin. Why not keep him there and try Zucker on L1?

Because Zucker is a left wing and Rust is best on the right side.

Guentzel and Zucker are best on LW, Rust and Kapanen are best on RW.

Also, Guentzel-Crosby is an elite, proven combination with a longer track record than Guentzel-Malkin.

You're advocating breaking up a partnership that 1) Has worked tremendously in the past, 2) Is now working extremely well in the present, all to try to jumpstart Malkin.

You're risking breaking something to try to fix something that has evidence of running hot/cold for over a decade.

Malkin is streaky. He's slumping now. The linemates don't matter. Give him another week or so and I'll bet you anything Geno is just fine.

 

[radapex]

Line 1 was having issues to start the season.

The only change occurred when Rodrigues got hurt.

That's true. Even when Kapanen joined the team, Rodrigues remained on Crosby's line until he got hurt.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

I'm not arguing for the team to be blown up for Malkin, or that his success should be placed over the team's success. I'm saying that throughout his 15 year NHL career, when Malkin gets on a roll the team always follows. His success benefits the team, every time, because when he's on a roll it's in all zones in all circumstances, it's not just offense but whole rink domination. What gets him on a roll isn't some Russian mystery. It's playing with complementary players, being trusted and played in critical situations and times, and gaining confidence from all the above. It's like clockwork. Therrien, Maurice, Dave King, Fitzgerald all got that. They knew how to play him to get the most out of him and therefore the team.

Starting with Bylsma and now Sullivan, Malkin is used as an offensive weapon in specific situations and so often, more recently, he plays with guys that don't fit. It's not about the best players, it's about the fit. And before you call me some fanboy or accuse me of placing Malkin before the team, why pay a guy 9.5 if you're gonna use him as an offensive weapon and prioritize a third line over him? Let's move him and get players Sullivan actually trusts. Malkin is an all zone player, who gains confidence from being trusted all over the ice. His talents are wasted in Pitt and the players costs too much to use him as Sullivan is.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Because Zucker is a left wing and Rust is best on the right side.

Guentzel and Zucker are best on LW, Rust and Kapanen are best on RW.

Also, Guentzel-Crosby is an elite, proven combination with a longer track record than Guentzel-Malkin.

You're advocating breaking up a partnership that 1) Has worked tremendously in the past, 2) Is now working extremely well in the present, all to try to jumpstart Malkin.

You're risking breaking something to try to fix something that has evidence of running hot/cold for over a decade.

Malkin is streaky. He's slumping now. The linemates don't matter. Give him another week or so and I'll bet you anything Geno is just fine.

Sullivan plays people on their off wing, it's never stopped him before. Zucker doesn't fit with Malkin and one week isn't going to change it.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Neal very, very rarely played with Crosby. Partly because his tenure as a Penguin coincided with Crosby's concussion/neck issues, but also because they never wanted to break the Malkin-Neal combination up. During his time with the Penguins, Neal played 237:40 with Crosby at 5v5 (9% of his total 5v5 TOI) and 1683:04 with Malkin at 5v5 (62% of his total 5v5 TOI). Of that, 53:37 was played with both Crosby and Malkin (1.9% of his total 5v5 TOI). That is over a span of 4.25 seasons and 199 GP.

The numbers were mostly similar for Kessel. In his 4 seasons and 328 games with the Penguins, he played 50% of his 5v5 minutes with Malkin vs 10% with Crosby, and only 1% with both of them. As we all know, Kessel did spent a fair bit of time on his own line away from either of them.

Like I said, if you think Crosby wanted to play with someone and didn't get to, you're high dude.

 

[radapex]

I'm not arguing for the team to be blown up for Malkin, or that his success should be placed over the team's success. I'm saying that throughout his 15 year NHL career, when Malkin gets on a roll the team always follows. His success benefits the team, every time, because when he's on a roll it's in all zones in all circumstances, it's not just offense but whole rink domination. What gets him on a roll isn't some Russian mystery. It's playing with complementary players, being trusted and played in critical situations and times, and gaining confidence from all the above. It's like clockwork. Therrien, Maurice, Dave King, Fitzgerald all got that. They knew how to play him to get the most out of him and therefore the team.

Starting with Bylsma and now Sullivan, Malkin is used as an offensive weapon in specific situations and so often, more recently, he plays with guys that don't fit. It's not about the best players, it's about the fit. And before you call me some fanboy or accuse me of placing Malkin before the team, why pay a guy 9.5 if you're gonna use him as an offensive weapon and prioritize a third line over him? Let's move him and get players Sullivan actually trusts. Malkin is an all zone player, who gains confidence from being trusted all over the ice. His talents are wasted in Pitt and the players costs too much to use him as Sullivan is.

The same can be said about Crosby -- why pay him so much if you're going to set him up for failure to prop up Malkin? That is the heart of the problem here; JR built a team that just doesn't have enough talent to go around. But, at the same time, Crosby and Malkin are being paid to elevate less talent players when they're on their line; right now one guy may or may not be doing that, and the other definitely isn't.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Also Malkin consistently faces far easier matchups than Crosby and has throughout his career.

As much as I'm leaning against the Zucker and Kapanen pickups, Geno's play especially in his own zone is his own biggest problem. In addition to the goal, the play where he went for a skate while Orlov (I think?) walked into the slot in the third was pathetic hockey.

 

[Icarium]

Like I said, if you think Crosby wanted to play with someone and didn't get to, you're high dude.

Ah, yes, Crosby the player coach... who somehow did not object to having ERod on his line. And you say that we are high.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It took McCann’s invisible, spastic play on the third line to make me appreciate ZAR, but so far I find myself appreciating the little things he does.

Maybe it’s just the number change.

Please don’t make me hate you again ZAR.

I thought Ceci was supposed to be one of the worst defensemen in the league.

Don’t hex it bro.

CC always puts together good stretches then goes back to being a train wreck.

If we don’t talk about it, maybe it won’t happen.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

The same can be said about Crosby -- why pay him so much if you're going to set him up for failure to prop up Malkin? That is the heart of the problem here; JR built a team that just doesn't have enough talent to go around. But, at the same time, Crosby and Malkin are being paid to elevate less talent players when they're on their line; right now one guy may or may not be doing that, and the other definitely isn't.

Playing Zucker with Crosby is setting him up for failure? Isn't that hyperbolic?

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Ah, yes, Crosby the player coach... who somehow did not object to having ERod on his line. And you say that we are high.

I'm not going to burst your bubble but Crosby plays with who he wants to play with. Therrien was the last coach to treat them as true equals, for better or for worse.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Also Malkin consistently faces far easier matchups than Crosby and has throughout his career.

As much as I'm leaning against the Zucker and Kapanen pickups, Geno's play especially in his own zone is his own biggest problem. In addition to the goal, the play where he went for a skate while Orlov (I think?) walked into the slot in the third was pathetic hockey.

But does better when Crosby is out and he has to play against the stacked opposition.

 

[Icarium]

I'm not going to burst your bubble but Crosby plays with who he wants to play with.

You keep repeating this as if your mere assertion proves it. It doesn't. And if you really believe it, why do you even bother writing all this? Obviously nothing will change and Crosby will keep Jake and Rust on his line, end of story.
The fact is Malkin has played far better in previous years with far worse player than Kapanen and Zucker. He is making so many simple errors than this is clearly more of a case of a line lacking chemistry. And in the few games where Malkin did look at least close to the the Malkin of old this same line was actually quite dominant, but couldn't score much.

 

[ChaosAgent]

But does better when Crosby is out and he has to play against the stacked opposition.

He has elevated far lesser players than Kasperi Kapanen and Jason Zucker throughout his career. Or at least, produced with them.

He has also made better hockey plays in terms of puck control, passing, receiving passes, beating defenders, defense, outside shooting, etc etc.

Yes he's old and it's unfair to keep asking him to do this. Yes JR should have tried to go in on 1 star (one who didn't suck at 5-on-5 hockey like Kessel) vs. 2 complimentary pieces. Yes the team is maybe better if he and Sid swap wingers.

But you control what you can control. And of the things Geno can control, his general quality of play is one of them and he has by and large failed so far this season.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Sullivan plays people on their off wing, it's never stopped him before. Zucker doesn't fit with Malkin and one week isn't going to change it.

He doesn't do it often. He prefers to keep players on their natural wing and natural defensive side.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

You keep repeating this as if your mere assertion proves it. It doesn't. And if you really believe it, why do you even bother writing all this? Obviously nothing will change and Crosby will keep Jake and Rust on his line, end of story.
The fact is Malkin has played far better in previous years with far worse player than Kapanen and Zucker. He is making so many simple errors than this is clearly more of a case of a line lacking chemistry. And in the few games where Malkin did look at least close to the the Malkin of old this same line was actually quite dominant, but couldn't score much.

Look. I've been watching this team a long time. There are troves of evidence to indicate if Crosby is unhappy, things change. Crosby's word goes a long way in this organization, as it should, to a point. If he wants to play with Kunitz and Dupuis he does, if he wants to play with Sheary he does, if he wants to play with Guentzel and Rust he does, it goes on and on. If you want to sit here and argue against that, I don't care. I'm not naive. And for the last time, it's not about better or worse players. It's about the fit of them. Zucker does nothing for the line and the success it does have is because of Malkin and Kapanen making a play. I'm tired of arguing this. No, I don't think it will change. But I'm frustrated and have the right to vent.