Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers - The Ogre/Cole Positive Train! CHOO CHOO

[Pengwins]

The 100pts would've been a nice icing on Sid's season but Phil's really the only complaint for me.
If they wanna make a serious run this year Phil better find his game quickly. Drop some pounds, get on some nootropics+legal roids. Whatever it takes.

Agreed. We're shaping up to be serious Cup contenders but Phil Kessel is our biggest concern. He is a turnover machine, plays little defense and is missing golden chances

 

[Empoleon8771]

Murray is now (hadn't checked in a while) 12th in sv% for all goalies this year and 6th for goalies that have played more than 40 games. Pretty damn impressive considering his inconsistent start and injuries.

Murray is going to be a Vezina frontrunner next year and is going to hit that potential ceiling that so many said he had in his rookie year. It's not even like that's a hot take either, that's a pretty reasonable take if Murray has finally put it all together after a rough year+.

 

[ColePens]

Agreed. We're shaping up to be serious Cup contenders but Phil Kessel is our biggest concern. He is a turnover machine, plays little defense and is missing golden chances

I think it's fair to say Phil is the difference between winning and losing a series because weve seen it before. So i feel that comment is very fair.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Agreed. We're shaping up to be serious Cup contenders but Phil Kessel is our biggest concern. He is a turnover machine, plays little defense and is missing golden chances

I just find it weird how Kessel gets bashed so hard and Hornqvist skates by with so little criticism. I get the Kessel fat lazy guy narrative vs Hornqvist the warrior thing, but you know, I’m actually watching the whole hockey thing and not understanding why Hornqvist’s poor play is being ignored...

Kessel will always frustrate people when he’s not scoring, but he’s still hustling back and helping in his own end. Hornqvist is no great shakes in his own end so uh...

I’m a big fan of Hornqvist, but it’s time many of the Kessel bashers start admitting Hornqvist is a bigger problem right now.

Hornqvist has 2 goals in his last 30 games (only 3 goals since the new year) and is pointless in his last six... c’mon now people.

Kessel isn’t the biggest problem right now and he needs to play better, but Hornqvist is a much bigger issue.

 

[Pengwins]

I just find it weird how Kessel gets bashed so hard and Hornqvist skates by with so little criticism.

Main difference is Hornqvist dumps and chases the puck whereas Kessel's turnovers lead to odd-man breaks for the other team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just find it weird how Kessel gets bashed so hard and Hornqvist skates by with so little criticism. I get the Kessel fat lazy guy narrative vs Hornqvist the warrior thing, but you know, I’m actually watching the whole hockey thing and not seeing why Hornqvist’s poor play is being ignored...

Kessel will always frustrate people when he’s not scoring, but he’s still hustling back and helping in his own end. Hornqvist is no great shakes in his own end so uh...

I’m a big fan of Hornqvist, but it’s time many of the Kessel bashers start admitting Hornqvist is a bigger problem right now.

Hornqvist has 2 goals in his last 30 games(only 3 goals since the new year) and is pointless in his last six... c’mon now people.

Kessel isn’t the biggest problem right now and he needs to play better, but Hornqvist is a much bigger issue.

I don't disagree that Hornqvist gets too little **** and Kessel gets too much **** here, but bringing up Hornqvist's goal totals doesn't make much sense when Kessel also only has 3 goals in his last 27 games. Both are problems right now. Kessel's negatives hurt the Penguins more when he's struggling, but Hornqvist's positives help the Penguins less when he's struggling.

 

[Peat]

I'm just very pleased the 3C is pretty much done and dusted with Bjugs, McCann and Blueger all here now.
Took JR too long to sort out Bones's departure.

JR should 100% not settle with just moving Olli in the summer.
This F group deserves more "Ummph!" from the back end with how much money is being spent there.
Not saying he has to do it right this summer but he should ALWAYS be on the lookout in improving the offense from the back end.

You know, I'd somehow internalised my acceptance of the blueline so much I didn't even really bother to think about them properly that is a situation that should be attacked swiftly and savagely, but you know that won't happen.

 

[Icarium]

Well, it would be nice to see our defence getting back to looking really solid but you can't argue with this kind of win. Secondary scoring coming big, Blueger justifying all the love we gave him on this forum, Bjugstad with another big goal, we get a PPG and a SHG and once more make a Rangers goalie look bad. Now, if only Horny and Phil could pot some goals...

The Pens' resilience has been amazing after that unfortunate outdoor game. Yes, they dropped some points in the last minutes of games but they also had many comebacks and have only been out of the game early in two games since then, IIRC. The infusion of youth reminds me of 2016, although the team isn't quite as dominant as the 2016 Pens. But it does have Jake, who has amazing playoff numbers.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't disagree that Hornqvist gets too little **** and Kessel gets too much **** here, but bringing up Hornqvist's goal totals doesn't make much sense when Kessel also only has 3 goals in his last 27 games. Both are problems right now. Kessel's negatives hurt the Penguins more when he's struggling, but Hornqvist's positives help the Penguins less when he's struggling.

Kessel has 3 goals in his last 11 games and 31 points since the new year, while Hornqvist has 1 goal in his last 11 and only 11 points since the new year.

Hornqvist is being paid to produce, he just got a brand new deal that he needs to live up to. He’s not being paid to be a Garrett Wilson type that plays break even hockey.

The excuse making needs to stop and yes, his lack of production is by far the biggest issue with the team right now.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Horny gets too little flak, but Kessel gets just the right amount. The guy has been downright horrible. Hornqvist is at least a part of a very effective third line right now. Kessel's play is approaching detrimental for that second line.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kessel has 3 goals in his last 11 games and 31 points since the new year, while Hornqvist has 1 goal in his last 11 and only 11 points since the new year.

Hornqvist is being paid to produce, he just got a brand new deal that he needs to live up to. He’s not being paid to be a Garrett Wilson type that plays break even hockey.

The excuse making needs to stop and yes, his lack of production is by far the biggest issue with the team right now.

Hornys production is definitely worse. But he doesn't make the glaring mistakes that Kessel has this year. I'm not saying it's fair to criticize Kessel so much more than horny, but thats the reason it happens imo.

Kessel has been better recently which is nice. Not back to where he can be, but better. But he needs to score some es goals eventually. The chances are there recently, so that's a good sign. But those goals would go a long way towards offsetting the bad optics of his mistakes.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

What's our flak measuring system?

 

[Icarium]

I really don't see how Hornqvist is a bigger issue than Kessel. Kessel is much more of a liability defensively, far worse forechecker and his passing is nowhere near what it was in his best days. He also gets to play with Malkin and even this inconsistent version of Malkin is a far better playmaker than Bjugstad. Yes, it's a problem that Hornqvist has gone dry for so long but Kessel is a bigger problem, he needs to start scoring and make assists like that to McCann on a regular basis, not once in a blue moon.
Also, Hornqvist's scoring was perfectly fine until his concussion, he could still be feeling some after-effects for all we know. And the way the third line is playing, it often gives us momentum even when it's not scoring, when was the last time Kessel has done that? When was the last time the opposition looked scared of Kessel's shot? Last year? He only has three shots in the last three games, by the way, he seemed to be back on track at least in the number of shots department before that but has reverted to passing shot opportunities once again.

I wouldn't mind trying Horny with Sid a bit, he needs to get that even strength goal monkey off his back, once he does I think there is a pretty good chance he will start scoring regularly, I can't say I feel the same about Kessel but I sure hope I am wrong because we really can use his goals right now.

 

[Andy99]

I'd just like to add that I don't think its a complete coincidence that one of our best attacking games coincided with one of our worst defensive games for a while. Loose play and risktaking makes space for both sides.

We can afford to play looser against the NYRs of the world...bad idea against Tampa, Caps, and the other PO teams...

 

[EightyOne]

I'm already whittling two funeral pyres for Horny and Kess.

I'm ready to see The future of the team.

I liked the idea of keeping Hornqvist but he's missing too much time with head injuries and isn't a spark in the top six anymore.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Hornys production is definitely worse. But he doesn't make the glaring mistakes that Kessel has this year. I'm not saying it's fair to criticize Kessel so much more than horny, but thats the reason it happens imo.

Kessel has been better recently which is nice. Not back to where he can be, but better. But he needs to score some es goals eventually. The chances are there recently, so that's a good sign. But those goals would go a long way towards offsetting the bad optics of his mistakes.

Kessel’s game is always going to make him more prone to turnovers than Hornqvist because he handles the puck way more often. But he at least produces points.

Hornqvist is a dump and chase guy, so he better not be making glaring mistakes because he’s not producing or doing much of anything really.

I think people need to start watching Hornqvist and they will see it’s his linemates controlling the cycle much more so than him.

This isn’t to excuse Kessel playing poorly, but if people want to at least try to pretend to be unbiased, they better start looking over at Hornqvist as well. His lack of production is a massive issue. Kessel is at least producing (9 in his last 8). Hornqvist has two helpers and that’s it, in his last ten.

 

[Icarium]

Kessel is at least producing (9 in his last 8).

Kessel has produced quite a few assists of the "shoot it weakly into a defender, get a lucky double deflection and the puck ends on a platter for Jake" variety. Or "pass it five feet to Sid, who waits behind the net and sends a perfect pass to Schultz" variety. I mean, they all count but Kessel isn't really playing like a PPG player, despite those numbers, IMO.

On the other hand, take a look at the very important first goal in this game. It never happens if it weren't for Hornqvist's forecheck and deflection attempt which he missed but led to the goalie giving up a juicy rebound. He didn't get an assist but contributed a lot more than Phil contributed for the PP goal. Again, Horny needs to start scoring but generally when a player is playing well but can't score he ends up scoring in bunches at some point. The entire third line looks poised for a big game where they score a lot. Kessel... not so much unless we get to play with some team with really bad PK.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Hornqvist had 10 points in 11 playoff games last year. Let's see what he does this year before claiming he cant get it done in the top 6. Problem is Crosby refusing to have him on his line. The lineup would be much better off if he wasnt so stubborn. I could see if it didnt work but it does.

And im fine if he doesnt want it for 82 games. But switch back in the playoffs like we saw last year. Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist dominated.

If we go back to that line...and Kessel could gel with Bjugstad...that could put us over the top. Malkin getting Rust and either Blueger or McCann. The other going on the 3rd line with Bjugstad/Kessel.

That would be the best possible lineup in top 9. And a 4th line of Cullen centering Simon and ZAR would be nice as well.

This all comes down to Crosby allowing PH back on line 1. Again, I can see why he doesnt want it for all 82 games but come playoff time? It works. And allows us to make the other lines gel better.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Kessel has produced quite a few assists of the "shoot it weakly into a defender, get a lucky double deflection and the puck ends on a platter for Jake" variety. Or "pass it five feet to Sid, who waits behind the net and sends a perfect pass to Schultz" variety. I mean, they all count but Kessel isn't really playing like a PPG player, despite those numbers, IMO.

On the other hand, take a look at the very important first goal in this game. It never happens if it weren't for Hornqvist's forecheck and deflection attempt which he missed but led to the goalie giving up a juicy rebound. He didn't get an assist but contributed a lot more than Phil contributed for the PP goal. Again, Horny needs to start scoring but generally when a player is playing well but can't score he ends up scoring in bunches at some point. The entire third line looks poised for a big game where they score a lot. Kessel... not so much unless we get to play with some team with really bad PK.

Again, this is basically horse shit and people latching onto the narrative they want to create and being disingenuous as hell.

Let’s ignore Kessel’s work to setup McCann last game or the fact that last night he’s the one that carried the puck all the way out of his zone into the AZ, then threw a beautiful pass to McCann and TB put in his rebound.

But Hornqvist screened the goalie ... so he’s um, more effective and deserving of praise. Got it. Not like Simon is the one who dug out the puck and got it to the point and Bjugstad made the great play to ram it home.

No bias around here. People totally know how to break down how these two are playing in such intelligent and informed ways.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I just find it weird how Kessel gets bashed so hard and Hornqvist skates by with so little criticism. I get the Kessel fat lazy guy narrative vs Hornqvist the warrior thing, but you know, I’m actually watching the whole hockey thing and not understanding why Hornqvist’s poor play is being ignored...

Kessel will always frustrate people when he’s not scoring, but he’s still hustling back and helping in his own end. Hornqvist is no great shakes in his own end so uh...

I’m a big fan of Hornqvist, but it’s time many of the Kessel bashers start admitting Hornqvist is a bigger problem right now.

Hornqvist has 2 goals in his last 30 games (only 3 goals since the new year) and is pointless in his last six... c’mon now people.

Kessel isn’t the biggest problem right now and he needs to play better, but Hornqvist is a much bigger issue.

Hornqvist has maximized his talent. Kessel is in his 30th-50th percentile of outcomes given his natural ability. He's moody and difficult to coach. Kessel also hurts us far more when he's not scoring. And, most importantly, the insistence of playing Malkin-Kessel together has resulted in a line that is harmful to us and makes Geno work far too hard in his own zone.

Plus Kessel has more external value, so that makes him a better trade candidate.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, this is basically horse **** and people latching onto the narrative they want to create and being disingenuous as hell.

Let’s ignore Kessel’s work to setup McCann last game or the fact that last night he’s the one that carried the puck all the way out of his zone into the AZ, then threw a beautiful pass to McCann and TB put in his rebound.

But Hornqvist screened the goalie ... so he’s um, more effective and deserving of praise. Got it. Not like Simon is the one who dug out the puck and got it to the point and Bjugstad made the great play to ram it home.

No bias around here. People totally know how to break down how these two are playing in such intelligent and informed ways.

Hornqvist was on fire to start the season and had multiple concussions though.

Kessel has been healthy and shitting all over the ice defensively and more frustrating is that he is getting beaten to pucks due to lack of effort.

If you watch a star do that as a younger player (or are on a line with him as a Brassard) why are you putting forth effort.

I get your argument. But, Kessel has definitely been phoning it in a lot this season and what he brings outside of his scoring doesn’t justify 6.8 on a line with Malkin or Crosby. Where as 5.25 for Hornqvist is justified by the disruption and grit he brings to his line.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Hornqvist has maximized his talent. Kessel is in his 30th-50th percentile of outcomes given his natural ability. He's moody and difficult to coach. Kessel also hurts us far more when he's not scoring. And, most importantly, the insistence of playing Malkin-Kessel together has resulted in a line that is harmful to us and makes Geno work far too hard in his own zone.

Plus Kessel has more external value, so that makes him a better trade candidate.

No, Hornqvist is paid to produce like a top six guy, and he’s producing like a high end fourth liner lately. That’s a problem. A huge problem.

Some on here can’t seem to admit that.

It’s always cool to rag on Phil though because he’s kinda goofy looking and doesn’t play the game how people want him to. He’s an easy target when he’s not scoring.

People calling him lazy and shit is funny, because he’s backchecking harder than Hornqvist. I know, because I’ve been watching both closely the last dozen games.

Kessel is definitely off his game with the puck on his stick and I’m not happy with where he’s at, but people just use cliches to break his game down and then try to ell me Hornqvist is playing well. That’s how I know these people have no idea what they are watching or they aren’t paying attention and make general assumptions.

 

[Icarium]

Let’s ignore Kessel’s work to setup McCann last game

You mean the thing I commended him for in the post before the one you are quoting? If he was doing more of that and less of secondary assists followed by egregious turnovers on the PP he wouldn't be getting much flak even if he wasn't scoring goals but he isn't. These two assists are encouraging signs but Phil can do much more, not to mention there have been many games since New Year in which his passing was rather atrocious.

Not like Simon is the one who dug out the puck and got it to the point and Bjugstad made the great play to ram it home.

Watch it again, Hornqvist stole the puck by playing the body, then passed it to Simon with his skate.

But Hornqvist screened the goalie ... so he’s um, more effective and deserving of praise. Got it.

I compared Hornqvist's work on this goal to Phil's contribution to two other goals and I am sure you realize that perfectly well, but sure, go demolish that strawman. I didn't say anything about Hornqvist being more effective either, he obviously isn't, all I am saying is that the numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

[Peat]

I can't agree with Jiggyfly's statement that Horny's lack of scoring is our biggest issue right now - not when his line has been dominant over the last 10 games - but he's definitely not doing great.

And Kessel is definitely taking too much flak.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

We wouldnt know if Kessel is healthy or not anyway since he would refuse to sit and ruin his streak