Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers - The Ogre/Cole Positive Train! CHOO CHOO

[ChaosAgent]

No, Hornqvist is paid to produce like a top six guy, and he’s producing like a high end fourth liner lately. That’s a problem. A huge problem.

Some on here can’t seem to admit that.

It’s always cool to rag on Phil though because he’s kinda goofy looking and doesn’t play the game how people want him to. He’s an easy target when he’s not scoring.

People calling him lazy and **** is funny, because he’s backchecking harder than Hornqvist. I know, because I’ve been watching both closely the last dozen games.

Kessel is definitely off his game with the puck on his stick and I’m not happy with where he’s at, but people just use cliches to break his game down and then try to ell me Hornqvist is playing well. That’s how I know these people have no idea what they are watching or they aren’t paying attention and make general assumptions.

I think if Hornqvist has a bad playoffs and we get bounced early, he'll be on the block this summer. Or at least he should be. I was "ehhhhhh" on that contract from the moment it was signed.

I have noticed that Phil has been putting in more defensive effort in backchecking lately, which is good. He is still pathetically bad at board battles which is a huge issue for me since we play along the boards so much.

 

[cookthebooks]

so is the conventional wisdom that phil is basically egoless right up to the point of his consecutive games streak?

 

[StaalForOne]

Hornqvist started the year off alright. He hit a patch where he had a few injuries and hasn't produced as much since.

Take a look at October through December, and then the months following.

February especially was brutal.

Both of those guys, Kessel and Horny, picking their play up would be huge. I keep thinking of Phil on the PP yesterday, he had the puck, and moved down towards the net a bit, but he never once considered shooting. Maybe if he gets a snipe, he'll be back to filling the net.

For Hornqvist, he needs to help the PP for him to be most effective. I also expect him to elevate once the Playoffs start as we'll need his ability to put the garbage home and battle in front.

 

[BigEezyE22]

End of the day, Hornqvist is gonna hit a physical wall sooner rather than later, and Phil will eventually get really stale. It's just the nature of the beast. One will. I wouldn't sell cheap on either just as a dump, but both should be replaced this summer. Just like what happened with Kunitz (letting him walk). End of the line is near. Not a knock and I appreciate what both have brought in the last couple years, but it is what it is.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You mean the thing I commended him for in the post before the one you are quoting? If he was doing more of that and less of secondary assists followed by egregious turnovers on the PP he wouldn't be getting much flak even if he wasn't scoring goals but he isn't. These two assists are encouraging signs but Phil can do much more, not to mention there have been many games since New Year in which his passing was rather atrocious.



Watch it again, Hornqvist stole the puck by playing the body, then passed it to Simon with his skate.



I compared Hornqvist's work on this goal to Phil's contribution to two other goals and I am sure you realize that perfectly well, but sure, go demolish that strawman. I didn't say anything about Hornqvist being more effective either, he obviously isn't, all I am saying is that the numbers don't tell the whole story.

Nah, what you did was again trying to feed into a generic narrative about Kessel and select one play where he got a lucky assist on the Schultz goal, then tried to use it as some authoritative evidence he gets all these easy assists. As if Crosby or Malkin were never the beneficiaries of simply giving Kessel the puck for an easy helper.

Then you comically try to down play his one assist agt the Stars...If he didn’t rip that puck on net, Guentzel never scores. But since it’s Kessel, it was lucky that it “landed on a pladder” for JG.

Right....

I think if Hornqvist has a bad playoffs and we get bounced early, he'll be on the block this summer. Or at least he should be. I was "ehhhhhh" on that contract from the moment it was signed.

I have noticed that Phil has been putting in more defensive effort in backchecking lately, which is good. He is still pathetically bad at board battles which is a huge issue for me since we play along the boards so much.

I’m never going to argue his board play is good, because it isn’t.

But people acting like he’s lazy and not trying are just making shit up. He’s bobbling pucks and turning it over too much, but it’s not because he’s being lazy.

And Hornqvist is not playing well either, so people acting as if Kessel is the one big issue with this team are being completely disingenuous or are afraid to criticize Hornqvist for whatever reasons.

 

[Peat]

so is the conventional wisdom that phil is basically egoless right up to the point of his consecutive games streak?

Phil's egoless?

 

[cassius]

I just find it weird how Kessel gets bashed so hard and Hornqvist skates by with so little criticism. I get the Kessel fat lazy guy narrative vs Hornqvist the warrior thing, but you know, I’m actually watching the whole hockey thing and not understanding why Hornqvist’s poor play is being ignored...

Kessel will always frustrate people when he’s not scoring, but he’s still hustling back and helping in his own end. Hornqvist is no great shakes in his own end so uh...

I’m a big fan of Hornqvist, but it’s time many of the Kessel bashers start admitting Hornqvist is a bigger problem right now.

Hornqvist has 2 goals in his last 30 games (only 3 goals since the new year) and is pointless in his last six... c’mon now people.

Kessel isn’t the biggest problem right now and he needs to play better, but Hornqvist is a much bigger issue.

Well said Jiggy...

I believe I was one of the first to broach this topic a few months back Player Discussion: Patric Hornqvist

Simple fact is... Hornqvist has I believe 3 goals so far during 2019. For a guy who is being paid a very handsome salary, that simply isn't going to cut it

 

[Jacob]

The difference between Hornqvist and Kessel is that one is still contributing in other facets even when he's not scoring, and it's never a question of effort either.

 

[StaalForOne]

End of the day, Hornqvist is gonna hit a physical wall sooner rather than later, and Phil will eventually get really stale. It's just the nature of the beast. One will. I wouldn't sell cheap on either just as a dump, but both should be replaced this summer. Just like what happened with Kunitz (letting him walk). End of the line is near. Not a knock and I appreciate what both have brought in the last couple years, but it is what it is.

Right, I have similar sentiments. The biggest issue is that both of these players will reach a point where they are no longer useful, and that will likely be during their current contracts. 3 more years for Phil, and 4 for Hornqvist. Given the length of the contract alone Hornqvist should be the priority to move. Philly got a conditional 4th and a player for Simmonds which may not be a bad comparison for Hornqvist in a year or 2 or 3. The key is for JR to be savy with both these guys. The summer would be nice, but it has to be for the right pieces as you said. The narrative could change if either has a solid playoffs as well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The difference between Hornqvist and Kessel is that one is still contributing in other facets even when he's not scoring, and it's never a question of effort either.

True. But the flipside of that is that Horny can go on some pronounced scoring droughts while Kessel's pure skill ensures he's going to be putting up great numbers. So long as Phil's producing, I don't see a problem.

We have a lot of two-way/little things guys. Elite talent is rare and shouldn't be minimized.

 

[RSPens]

Why are we moving Hornqvist?

I am not going to say that we should trade Horny, but there are a few reasons why.

1) Crosby doesn't like having him on his line
2) Us Fans usually don't like how he looks next to Geno
3) He makes too much for a 3rd or 4th line player
4) Likely will have to move Kessel or Horny because of the Cap (unless we move 2 of JJ, Maatta or Guds)
5) Horny would be easier to move than Kessel since he brings more to the table, sure he likely doesn't have the offence that Kessel has shown, but when Horny's not scoring, he's not hurting the team either.
6) The style that Horny plays, his play is likely going to drop off a cliff pretty soon.

 

[Peat]

I am not going to say that we should trade Horny, but there are a few reasons why.

1) Crosby doesn't like having him on his line
2) Us Fans usually don't like how he looks next to Geno
3) He makes too much for a 3rd or 4th line player
4) Likely will have to move Kessel or Horny because of the Cap (unless we move 2 of JJ, Maatta or Guds)
5) Horny would be easier to move than Kessel since he brings more to the table, sure he likely doesn't have the offence that Kessel has shown, but when Horny's not scoring, he's not hurting the team either.
6) The style that Horny plays, his play is likely going to drop off a cliff pretty soon.

2) The numbers say those fans are very wrong
4) One of those dmen is enough to cover the cap sacrifice
6) People always says this but when the conversations come up, people can always name net front forwards who lasted forever but I've not not heard one example of a guy who didn't

 

[Empoleon8771]

4) Likely will have to move Kessel or Horny because of the Cap (unless we move 2 of JJ, Maatta or Guds).

No you don't, the only player you have to move to get under the cap is Maatta.

 

[Icarium]

Then you comically try to down play his one assist agt the Stars...If he didn’t rip that puck on net, Guentzel never scores. But since it’s Kessel, it was lucky that it “landed on a pladder” for JG.

What? I would have called it lucky if it had been anyone who shot that puck, are you sure you aren't following some narrative too? I have defended Kessel plenty of times in the past but at the end of the day he is paid to snipe the puck into the corners of the net and hasn't done that even once since before New Year.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What? I would have called it lucky if it had been anyone who shot that puck, are you sure you aren't following some narrative too? I have defended Kessel plenty of times in the past but at the end of the day he is paid to snipe the puck into the corners of the net and hasn't done that even once since before New Year.

It’s not lucky, it’s a well earned assist. So many on here bitch Kessel should shoot off the HB on the PP more, because it’s going to usually go in or create a juicy rebound.

So when he does that very thing and gets an assist, now it’s lucky. Guess AO gets lucky a lot to.

Except the reality is that’s not lucky, that’s taking your shot and the ensuing chaos it creates makes it extremely difficult on the PKers.

I took tons of those shots in my life just like that, knowing I had guys around the net and they could pounce on my rebounds. If anyone told me an assist I got on a shot like that was lucky I’d just roll my eyes and assume they have no clue what they are talking about.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The difference between Hornqvist and Kessel is that one is still contributing in other facets even when he's not scoring, and it's never a question of effort either.

It's a problem when a guy is trying his hardest and not getting anything done. What's going to happen in the playoffs?

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

In December Horny notched the fastest hat trick in Penguin history. A couple weeks later he was concussed for the second time this season after taking a puck to the face. This is his 5th concussion since December 2014. These injuries have cumulative effects and affect players differently. No one needs to remind a Penguins fan how frustrating head injuries can be. I think Hornqvist looked terrible in February after he came back. He seems to be getting closer to form now, and a little puck luck will go a long way for him. Kessel, on the other hand, is a complete enigma. He seems stuck in the same spider hole he was in during last year's playoffs. He appears to want to do better and there's little question he has the support of his teammates, but there will have to be a reckoning if he continues to underperform.

 

[Pancakes]

I took tons of those shots in my life just like that, knowing I had guys around the net and they could pounce on my rebounds. If anyone told me an assist I got on a shot like that was lucky I’d just roll my eyes and assume they have no clue what they are talking about.

It's a skill to create rebounds off shots. There's not just where you place it on the goalie but also how hard your shot is too.

With the Guentzel goal, Kessel shot so hard that the Dallas player couldn't control where it was blocked to, and it went to Guentzel. If Kessel lobs a wounded duck to the net there, there's no rebound goal.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

2) The numbers say those fans are very wrong
4) One of those dmen is enough to cover the cap sacrifice
6) People always says this but when the conversations come up, people can always name net front forwards who lasted forever but I've not not heard one example of a guy who didn't

Ryan Clowe and Simmonds is already rapidly declining.

 

[SouthGeorge]

8-2-2. Points in 10 out of 12.

 

[IcedCapp]

Every single NHL player is streaky. Even the PPG guys. Crazy, but it's true.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ryan Clowe and Simmonds is already rapidly declining.

And Hornqvist doesn’t play a similar game to them at all. Not to mention Simmonds has hip surgery.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

This isn't a salary cap thread or anything so I don't want to get too far off base, but I already claimed I want to keep Gudbranson over Maatta. I think being RH and just the way he's played in general is much better than Maatta even though Maatta is clearly a better player.

Gudbranson just fits. And JJ on the left side makes a **** load more sense as he's been good. I wouldn't think twice about moving Maatta. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I agree, I also think he holds good value because of age and being a top 4 on Cup teams. Many teams would love to add Cup experience and a defenseman that can be slotted into the second pairing. I think we could get a nice young winger just like in the McCann mold.

Maatta is my choice to be traded but that could change during the playoffs if Maatta gets in and outplays someone and we win the Cup. Another scenario that could change my mind is if we get taken out early and someone plays terrible. I really like the 3 pairings now and would be glad to go into next season with them and Riikola as the 7th defenseman.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I don't think they have to do much this off-season. Move out Maatta and Kessel and bring in a winger like Zucker and I'd be pretty happy with the lineup overall. You just need to get one of Johnson, Blandisi, DiPauli or someone like that to fill the 4th line wing spot with ZAR and Blueger, which I don't think is much of a stretch. If Kessel has a good run to finish the year, I don't even think you have to move Kessel, I'm perfectly happy with this lineup if Kessel is playing well:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
McCann-Malkin-Kessel
Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
Johnson-Blueger-ZAR
Blandisi

Dumoulin-Letang
Johnson-Schultz
Pettersson-Gudbranson
Riikola

Murray-DeSmith

That is the exact lineup I would go with next season also. That forward group looks strong in every spot. The crazy thing is that lineup is just as good as this years and that is not easy to do in a Cap era. We could have the exact lineup if we wanted Cullen back but I don’t think we need him. I wouldn’t be against having him on the team though because he would play for the minimum and Blandisi would be down.

 

[66-30-33]

The difference between Hornqvist and Kessel is that one is still contributing in other facets even when he's not scoring, and it's never a question of effort either.

There is a reason why Malkin calls Kessel lazy. He also rather work on his games played streak then get healthy for the sake of the team. He was injured last season but it pissed Sully off he did not rest his injury. Could be all rumor, just what we all talked about last year.