Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers SLOP FEST!!!

[thecore]

I am the only one who sees the elephant in the room is Sidney Crosby?

Remember when he used to forecheck? Win board battles? Take the puck to the net?

Now he's Brad Richards with better vision.

I don't claim to understand how the concussions have affected him, but if this is how he's going to be for the rest of his career, it's just going to take me a while to get over it, that's all. He's a shell of his former self.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

I am giving a categorical + for the shut out. Any time you do it, the goalie and defensive unit deserve some credit for the effort. It was also nice to see the anti-fleury in net. Could these two be more polar opposites? TV will not make glove saves on breakaways with style and bring fans to their feet. But, he kills chances and plays such a controlled game. So many times we have seen Fleury have great opportunities for shutouts, and never get them due to head games. It's a nice situation to be able to compare the two for our team.

Now for the MINUS. This was the game we needed, and we didn't respond. The rangers played our stars tough, Malkin and Staal came to blows. Which BTW i love, seeing two horses battle it out (high sticks aside....from both players). But when the game got chippy, we responded maybe 25%. We didn't take up the call to arms and turn the page as a TEAM. This team just seems too professional. This was a division rival, in a game where both teams needed a lightning rod to spark a turn around. Neither took the chance.

Then i watched the highlights from the Blue game....I have SUCH a man crush on the blues. They could take our team apart. So big, so fast, so chippy, with depth and talent. Those highlights looked like a different sport.

To address what may seem like a contradiction....I was not upset the rangers played Sid and Geno hard. What they did was not "taking liberty". But in lies the subtlety of hockey and why I love the game. If Staal tangles with malkin, both players battling, that should set a tone. We don't need to fight Staal, but you like to see a few purposeful extra hits to let him know it was noticed. No need to fight, but if you tangle with Geno you signed up for a rougher game. I would say the Rangers should feel the same way about their team. Staal is a big gun for them. He got whacked in the head. How do you not up the intensity? What we saw tonight was two CLUBS and no TEAMS

 

[Mr. T]

I am the only one who sees the elephant in the room is Sidney Crosby?

Remember when he used to forecheck? Win board battles? Take the puck to the net?

Now he's Brad Richards with better vision.

I don't claim to understand how the concussions have affected him, but if this is how he's going to be for the rest of his career, it's just going to take me a while to get over it, that's all. He's a shell of his former self.

The guy has always been a slow starter and he has a considerable amount of rust. I wouldn't be worried.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Glad you brought up the taking liberties thing. I didn't like it, either. Staal on Malkin and Girardi on Crosby. It's really too bad we don't have the roster space to bring up MacIntyre. Because (as usual) we're not sending the right messages to opponents. The hits on Geno and Sid will simply continue.

A subtle reminder is needed, like the time we acquired Eric Cairns and the liberties with our stars ended quickly.

Bylsma's more interested in mirror images like Adams and Glass, but a true heavyweight is required. And it's assinine not to have one on a team with two of the most targeted players in the NHL. Bylsma doesn't get this, has never gotten this and never will get this. But a lot of teams are playing their enforcers in the East this season, something they weren't doing last year (most notably Carolina with Westgarth, Toronto with Orr and Buffalo with Scott).

Having Kunitz, Cooke, Kennedy, Dupuis, Boychuk, Jeffrey, Glass and Adams all on the same roster is just so much overkill.

Roster composition is another thing I have a real problem with Shero for. He's only doing his job, catering to his coach, but Fred Shero's son (of all people) should know better here. He signs an enforcer every year, but he doesn't insist on having him here. He should insist.

 

[Richard]

I am the only one who sees the elephant in the room is Sidney Crosby?

Remember when he used to forecheck? Win board battles? Take the puck to the net?

Now he's Brad Richards with better vision.

I don't claim to understand how the concussions have affected him, but if this is how he's going to be for the rest of his career, it's just going to take me a while to get over it, that's all. He's a shell of his former self.

I didn't want to be the first to say this, but yes I agree. I have been thinking this often, beginning last year. Especially after we signed him to a career contract.

I am hopeful he can return to his pre-injury glory. I tell myself it is rust (looking at how hes handling the puck and his lack of timing), however he is playing different. Watch games from '05, '06, '07, '08 and '09. It's a different Crosby. He seems to be trying to use his linemates more. The "old" Crosby was a physical force who would zip into the zone; this version of Sid seems loath to carry the puck or be in traffic. Case in point was that two on one last night- he used to have that extra step and would have zoomed around the defender. He seems to be trying to get rid of the puck as fast as possible.

This is worthy of careful consideration.

I fully believe that the elephant on the powerplay is Sidney Crosby. This from a player who had something like 40-50 powerplay points in '06

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

I am the only one who sees the elephant in the room is Sidney Crosby?

Remember when he used to forecheck? Win board battles? Take the puck to the net?

Now he's Brad Richards with better vision.

I don't claim to understand how the concussions have affected him, but if this is how he's going to be for the rest of his career, it's just going to take me a while to get over it, that's all. He's a shell of his former self.

I was very disappointed in Sid's play. And I am really questioning him as a "captain". I think the work ethic and intensity are there. But he flopped and played like a punk too much in that game. It was not a brand of hockey i was proud to support. The hit from del zotto was a fine hit. Sid tried to go in at such an angle that Del Zot couldn't legally play the body. I hate seeing players do that, and often the result is an awkward hit.

The other night someone brought up a great point about us needing guys like Billy G and Roberts to be actual leaders on ice. Sid just isnt that guy right now. Hopefully he grows with experience. I personally have seen far more emotional leadership from Geno then Sid recently.

Staal and Geno go at it, Geno responds. Gets out of the box, and he makes a B line for the goal, gets right back in on Staal. He didn't back down, he upped his game. We don't get that from Crosby much anymore.

Buffalo added Ott this year and in a great interview Ott said he understands that the way he plays, he is going to drag people into battle. Buffalo needed that. I think we need a player like that too.

Do we have any AHL players who have that attitude? Who are going to come and stir the pot?

To me another portion of this is DB's approach. Professional. Systems. Execute. "Look we are almost like the Red Wings".

 

[Penguinzilla*]

I am the only one who sees the elephant in the room is Sidney Crosby?

Remember when he used to forecheck? Win board battles? Take the puck to the net?

Now he's Brad Richards with better vision.

I don't claim to understand how the concussions have affected him, but if this is how he's going to be for the rest of his career, it's just going to take me a while to get over it, that's all. He's a shell of his former self.

He definitely hasn't been himself, but he's played limited hockey for a while now. He'll start to come around in 10 games or so.

 

[Tender Rip]

There was absolutely nothing in the game against the Rangers that needed an enforcer. Nothing.
Jags, you were overjoyed when we got big BAAAD MacIntyre. Please remember how utterly useless he was before making more references to Eric Cairns from way back when enforcers actually served a purpose.
Rule changes have killed that purpose.

Having a bigger, stronger and more physical team would be nice. Last nights D-group handled opponents forwards better behind and in front of our cage than we've seen since forever. If we could add a forward or two who could contribute the same at the other end while playing hockey... why, we should be a menace.

 

[Lemieuxfan]

because most posters understand that kids will make mistakes.the sooner you let them play through them, the sooner they stop. Mistakes aren't necessarily a "bad thing", they are part of the process. There's a segment of the board (which I happen to be a part of) that believes it's better to let those players play through it, rather than benching them for players who just aren't good (Ben Lovejoy)

Couldn't agree more. Young players need time to adjust to the league..I mean if the talents are there, just run them. I'm really happy with Despres, I'm sure he'll be a really good d-man in a few years.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I mentioned in detail both of Despres' mistakes and saw several others such as Mtl mention it as well.

Not sure what gave you the impression people overlooked those turnovers.

How is bort usually when it comes to handling the puck? He looked like he was fighting it the whole night and I'm praying its just nerves.

That's why I have to bring up Strait again. I'm honestly not taking you to task on your evaluation, but what would you see in WBS that made you like Bort over Strait?

 

[NastyNick]

2 games vs the Rangers and Vokoun has broken them. If this was a playoff series it would have been an easy sweep for Pittsburgh. That third period play by the Rangers was a team that just gave up. They knew they were going to have to work for their goals, and they weren't up to it.

You don't get that with Fleury at all. Teams know if they get the puck to the net, theres a chance Fleury will flop over and push it into the net with his butt. Or theres a chance he'll go behind the net to chase a dump in and turn it over. Fleury has no respect around the league any more. And it creates a psychological disadvantage for the Pens. The defense plays too aggressive, tries to protect him, and we end up with a lot of poorly executed plays.

I hope this team gets Vokoun in the net if they make the playoffs.

 

[Tender Rip]

How is bort usually when it comes to handling the puck? He looked like he was fighting it the whole night and I'm praying its just nerves.

That's why I have to bring up Strait again. I'm honestly not taking you to task on your evaluation, but what would you see in WBS that made you like Bort over Strait?

It was his first game in however long and at MSG. Some leeway is needed, and in any event I didn't think it was bad after he recovered from that mishandle and subsequent runover by Nash.

As for puck handling though, I think Strait is always going to be smoother on the puck than Bortuzzo. The only skill Bortuzzo has over him in that regard is that he has a shot.
What makes me like Bortuzzo more (for the Pens) is that he has a physical package and roughness this team needs more than it does any particular skill Strait brings.

Edit: this does not mean that I am any less annoyed that we didn't trade/waive Lovejoy rather than Strait.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There was absolutely nothing in the game against the Rangers that needed an enforcer. Nothing.
Jags, you were overjoyed when we got big BAAAD MacIntyre. Please remember how utterly useless he was before making more references to Eric Cairns from way back when enforcers actually served a purpose.
Rule changes have killed that purpose.

Having a bigger, stronger and more physical team would be nice. Last nights D-group handled opponents forwards better behind and in front of our cage than we've seen since forever. If we could add a forward or two who could contribute the same at the other end while playing hockey... why, we should be a menace.

Last night's D group included Despres, Bortuzzo, Orpik AND Engelland. So yeah, no wonder we were able to handle the big Ranger forwards. A group like this even makes Vagina Martin feel big and strong.

The rule changes haven't completely killed the need for a big badass who can scare teams straight. Once again, look around the NHL this year and you'll find enforcers are starting to come back into more regular roles...

Westgarth in Carolina
Orr in Toronto (and they picked up McLaren too yesterday)
Scott in Buffalo
Bordeleau in Colorado

The Rangers regularly dress Rupp and Asham. The Islanders dress Carkner and sometimes Finley and Boulton. The Devils sometimes dress Barch. The Habs have gotten a lot tougher with Prust, and also with lesser types like Ryan White and Colby Armstrong. The Sens lost some toughness, but Mark Borowiecki is an addition. Florida has Parros now, though he is struggling so far. They also have Tyson Strachan. Tampa Bay has Labrie, but he hardly plays. The Caps are playing John Erskine a lot more this year.

Up front, we're ridiculously small. Gritty, but lacking in toughness big time. This is pretty unacceptable on a team with superstars. And one thing that's often overlooked...we lost toughness in the Staal for Sutter swap, too. It's a LOT easier to play against Sutter.

This definitely needs to be addressed.

 

[Tender Rip]

Once again, look around the NHL this year and you'll find enforcers are starting to come back into more regular roles...

Westgarth in Carolina
Orr in Toronto (and they picked up McLaren too yesterday)
Scott in Buffalo
Bordeleau in Colorado

...and pretty much all of them suck, and except for Buffalo, maybe, their teams will all miss the playoffs.

The Rangers regularly dress Rupp and Asham.

Both of whom are 4th liners who can play regular shifts (at least the could). Never had a problem with those.
Most every other player you mention is either terrible or not the kind of HW you said we should have.

Up front, we're ridiculously small. Gritty, but lacking in toughness big time. This is pretty unacceptable on a team with superstars.

And again, one top6 forward who can play, create room for one of the stars and get in opponents face when they take liberties would mean infinitely more than having an Eric Godard who was 50% better at hockey than Eric Godard. I certainly do not disagree that it would be preferable getting a capable TOP6 winger with some size and snarl. Have been arguing in favor of making that a priority for years.

But a HW.... a waste of space for a contender. Today it is what the inferior teams use to at least be tough to play.

 

[Shady Machine]

I understand where you're coming from, but if things aren't working... I mean Neal has looked pretty invisible these past few games, and Kunitz... He's looked like dog ****. Why not try to get a jump start on those two players by changing things up. Jeffrey likes to give the puck to Malkin, and Kunitz can drive the net and create space for them, which is him basically getting back to his roots which will help get him back in the groove.

I'm not saying it's a permanent thing. Just until we can make some trades to fill those holes permanently.

Moving Kunitz from Sid to Malkin's line won't suddenly stop him from playing like ****. Basically, you are creating another hole to try to patch one. Neal and Malkin works. We know it works and it will continue to work. We have enough question marks on offense. Let's not create another one.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How is bort usually when it comes to handling the puck? He looked like he was fighting it the whole night and I'm praying its just nerves.

That's why I have to bring up Strait again. I'm honestly not taking you to task on your evaluation, but what would you see in WBS that made you like Bort over Strait?

Like I said in another post, he looked nervous. He usually handles the puck well and makes nice, crisp outlets. He will join the rush and come late, etc.

He was over committing too much on the boards and pulling up late... Putting his stick in the wrong lanes, etc.

It looked like a guy trying to get used to the speed of the game IMHO. Of course you have to expect that given it is like his third game in the pros and the first time he has played this season (in the NHL).

I valued both Strait and Bort and kept warning last year that I was afraid one would be lost if not both. You could just see it coming, unfortunately. I just value Bort more because he is a big guy who has a huge wingspan, plays a physical game when needed, boxes out well with his huge frame, and he has the offensive side of his game Strait lacks. He was more reliable in the A this year than Strait, so he is on par in his own end with Strait I feel.

Bort isn't Letang by any stretch of the imagination, but when he gets comfortable he will make some plays that surprise you.

Of course Bort may not get another chance so who knows.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

And again, one top6 forward who can play, create room for one of the stars and get in opponents face when they take liberties would mean infinitely more than having an Eric Godard who was 50% better at hockey than Eric Godard. I certainly do not disagree that it would be preferable getting a capable TOP6 winger with some size and snarl. Have been arguing in favor of making that a priority for years.

But a HW.... a waste of space for a contender. Today it is what the inferior teams use to at least be tough to play.

Top six forwards who can fight and protect star players are like gold. They're not easily available. EVERYBODY wants them. But the Eric Godard's of the world are available and affordable, and they help. The players feel more comfortable with them around. It just is.

Secondly, WE are becoming one of those inferior teams you speak of, especially if we keep picking up 5-9, 5-10 forwards.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Yeah, he'll get scratched for 4 games again, then come in and we'll wonder why he doesn't look sharp.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well I did say the past few games. Look I never said Geno and Neal don't have chemistry together. I'm just suggesting doing this to get both Neal and Kunitz jump started.

I keep seeing you say jump start Neal over and over. 5 goals in 7 games. Yeah 2 are on the PP but why break up the ONLY scoring line we have right now? I understand where you are coming from, it just doesn't make any damn sense.

 

[Shady Machine]

Corroborated by Malkin, just in case anybody thinks it's strictly BylsmaTalk.

I don't buy much of what Malkin says to the media. Every goal he scores he says "Good pass. I get lucky goal". "Yes PP much better". "We play good".

 

[ColePens]

Last night's D group included Despres, Bortuzzo, Orpik AND Engelland. So yeah, no wonder we were able to handle the big Ranger forwards. A group like this even makes Vagina Martin feel big and strong.

The rule changes haven't completely killed the need for a big badass who can scare teams straight. Once again, look around the NHL this year and you'll find enforcers are starting to come back into more regular roles...

Great point on the defense. Martin/Letang were very good because we limited our "PMDs" to a smaller number. Even though Engo/Orpik/Despres can move well - they are still great with their defense. Defense first players are working in the NHL. Want some proof?

Guys like Matt Greene, Mark Stuart, Scuds, Orpik, Seidenberg, etc. are all CRUCIAL members to their team. I think those defenders are worth a lot right now.

 

[vodeni]

Yeah. he is like black hole. Nothing deflects off him. I'm glad we have Vokoun. I remember he was the main reason of Czech victory over Russia in the final of WC 2010 when he stopped Malkin, Dats, Covy, Mozyakin, Gonchar, Ovi, Semin, Fedorov, Kulemin etc. Russia badly outshot them but lost

Funny! That game got stuck in my mind too, that was one of the best goalie performances Ive ever seen. I try to follow him ever since and was a bit dissapointed watching some of his NHL games, but still he is a gift for us...

 

[Shady Machine]

Great point on the defense. Martin/Letang were very good because we limited our "PMDs" to a smaller number. Even though Engo/Orpik/Despres can move well - they are still great with their defense. Defense first players are working in the NHL. Want some proof?

Guys like Matt Greene, Mark Stuart, Scuds, Orpik, Seidenberg, etc. are all CRUCIAL members to their team. I think those defenders are worth a lot right now.

Well that throws Shero's drafting strategy right out the window

 

[Til the End of Time]

how was bortuzzo last night?

i was distracted during the game, so i dont specifically recall how he played. i think i saw him get beat once badly early in the game.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Bortuzzo was up and down all game.

But I saw him do a few of the things that makes me believe that he can be a valuable defender in not-so-long. Provided he is allowed to work through some of the nerves and inconsistency that will be there with any young player. The good news is that his low points almost all resulted in non-plays for the Rangers.

Despres was impressive. But also extremely frightening at the same time.

It was an object lesson in how much different they will both be eventually, as finished products.