Cole's Plus/Minus: Geno is in God Mode

[Dipsy Doodle]

No he wasn't.
You can say he was shadowed by Zetterberg, Lidstrom or whoever you want but the fact remains he was average.
Oh and if i remember well, that didn't stop him to produce the year before against those same opponents.
The best player in the game should produce in SC finals, no matter who is facing.
You can't for example say that Geno was average against the Caps in those same POs (many there in this board say that) and then say Sid played fine against Detroit.

Crosby had Hossa on his line the year before.

And comparing the Caps and the Wings, as though they were anything but polar opposites defensively, is hilarious. You've got an agenda though, so none of these blatantly obvious differences are going to sway you.

 

[TheSniper26]

Evgeni Malkin is better than Sidney Crosby in every way and always has been and always will be. There, you can relax now, yuri.

 

[IcedCapp]

the history of the 2008-2009 Stanley Cup Playoffs always confuses the **** out of me.

Did I watch a different set of games?

 

[yuri28]

Crosby had Hossa on his line the year before.

And comparing the Caps and the Wings, as though they were anything but polar opposites defensively, is hilarious. You've got an agenda though, so none of these blatantly obvious differences are going to sway you.

I'm not comparing them defensively, i'm just saying that to say that Geno was average against the Caps and to say that Sid was playing fine against the Wings is blatant double standard.

 

[yuri28]

Evgeni Malkin is better than Sidney Crosby in every way and always has been and always will be. There, you can relax now, yuri.

Good try man but i'm not that sort of fish.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm not comparing them defensively, i'm just saying that to say that Geno was average against the Caps and to say that Sid was playing fine against the Wings is blatant double standard.

There's no double standard. One player was playing against the best defenseman and shutdown center of his generation. The other was facing the secondary defensive units of a ****** defensive team.

If one star lines up against a star defensive team with Guy Carbonneau and Ray Bourque and the other lines up against a beer league team, and they both have trouble scoring, that's the same thing to you. That's what you're saying.

That's about all for me. This smells like a colossally stupid derailment.

 

[yuri28]

There's no double standard. One player was playing against the best defenseman and shutdown center of his generation. The other was facing the secondary defensive units of a ****** defensive team.

If one star lines up against Guy Carbonneau and Ray Bourque and the other lines up against a beer league team, and they both have trouble scoring, that's the same thing to you. That's what you're saying.

That's about all for me. This smells like a colossally stupid derailment.

PLaying with Ruslan Fedotenko and Max Talbot but thanks for not mentionning it.
And as someone puts it you in your biased face, Sid wasn't ALWAYS facing their top defensive players and Geno wasn't always facing the other ones.
You truly believe Mike Babcock would have been stupid enough to never putted his top defensemen on a guy who had just win the Art Ross and who had just scored 28 pts in the POs prior to the Finals? you truly believe that??

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

PLaying with Ruslan Fedotenko and Max Talbot but thanks for not mentionning it.
And as someone puts it you in your biased face, Sid wasn't ALWAYS facing their top defensive players and Geno wasn't always facing the other ones.
You truly believe Mike Babcock would have been stupid enough to never putted his top defensemen on a guy who had just win the Art Ross and who had just scored 28 pts in the POs prior to the Finals? you truly believe that??

It isn't a matter of believing it, that's what happened. Look it up and inform yourself.

 

[rintinw]

It isn't a matter of believing it, that's what happened. Look it up and inform yourself.

Except it didn't happen. He split Lidstroms (and Zetterbergs) time in 2 to 1 ratio between them (courtesy of NHL time on ice game reports). Which is obviously not "never".

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Except it didn't happen. He split Lidstroms (and Zetterbergs) time in 2 to 1 ratio between them (courtesy of NHL time on ice game reports). Which is obviously not "never".

You can't dictate match-ups off of face-offs 100% of the time when there are icings and road games. But that was the match-up that Babcock consistently chased, and the record backs it up.

 

[Old Gregg]

There was no head contact and if you watched the game you'd know that Despres smashed Johansson's face into the glass later in the period.

Watch the video....His shoulder does catch him in the side of the head.

And like someone said above....Crosby gets hit, no one goes after the guy. Sure Depres drilled him from behind later on but it would be nice if someone went at him right away. Depres hits Johansen 10min later and everyone goes at Depres immediately.

 

[Shwag33]

Was Adams a healthy scratch?

 

[Old Gregg]

Was Adams a healthy scratch?

Sure was!

 

[KIRK]

There's no double standard. One player was playing against the best defenseman and shutdown center of his generation. The other was facing the secondary defensive units of a ****** defensive team.

If one star lines up against a star defensive team with Guy Carbonneau and Ray Bourque and the other lines up against a beer league team, and they both have trouble scoring, that's the same thing to you. That's what you're saying.

That's about all for me. This smells like a colossally stupid derailment.

Hockey is a five man game.

Cleary-Zetterberg-Holmstrom-Lidstrom-Rafalski versus Franzen-Filpula-Hossa-Kronwall-Stuart. If I grant you that the two best defensive players were on the former unit, then I'm sure you'll grant me that the three worst also were on that unit. End of the day, it hardly was a case of one unit having Carbonneau and Bourque and the other consisting of beer league talent.

If Pavel Datsyuk is healthy (and not on a broken foot) and centering the second unit-- which was the plan-- then there's no question who faces the more difficult unit.

For as well as Zetterberg and Lidstrom match up against Sid, they look like **** against Geno, and it showed throughout the series when that was the matchup. Sid lacks the size to match up against Zetterberg like Geno does. Sid lacked the patience to matchup against Lidstrom like Geno did (where Sid would try to go at Lidstrom 9000 mph, Geno was more deliberate on the rush . . . if Lidstrom would step up, Geno would dump the puck as use his speed and size to get behind a flat footed Lidstrom; if he'd back up, Geno would enter the zone and pull up).

To borrow your vapid analogy, it's why Carbonneau and Bourque looked better against Gretzky than Lemieux . . . it was less about who is better than the differences between Gretzky and Lemieux and how those impacted the matchup.

I'm surprised by you on this one. Yuri's point was just so dumb that Sniper's sarcasm was so much better an approach to deal with it than an equally 'colossally stupid' argument.

I still love ya though.

 

[IcedCapp]

Oh Jesus.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Hockey is a five man game.

Cleary-Zetterberg-Holmstrom-Lidstrom-Rafalski versus Franzen-Filpula-Hossa-Kronwall-Stuart. If I grant you that the two best defensive players were on the former unit, then I'm sure you'll grant me that the three worst also were on that unit. End of the day, it hardly was a case of one unit having Carbonneau and Bourque and the other consisting of beer league talent.

The 2nd unit was decent. It was in no way comparable to the 1st, which is why Babcock was explicit in calling it his 1st unit and chasing Crosby with it.

Babs didn't use the same linemates with Z every time. Basically, every time Sid got out there he would throw Z out with anyone.

If Pavel Datsyuk is healthy (and not on a broken foot) and centering the second unit-- which was the plan-- then there's no question who faces the more difficult unit.

1) Datsyuk wasn't healthy.
2) The 1st unit still would have been a better shutdown unit. Datsyuk's great defensively, but he's nowhere near the shadow Z is. That's without going into the yawning chasm that exists between Lidstrom and anyone else on the 2nd unit.

For as well as Zetterberg and Lidstrom match up against Sid, they look like **** against Geno, and it showed throughout the series when that was the matchup. Sid lacks the size to match up against Zetterberg like Geno does. Sid lacked the patience to matchup against Lidstrom like Geno did (where Sid would try to go at Lidstrom 9000 mph, Geno was more deliberate on the rush . . . if Lidstrom would step up, Geno would dump the puck as use his speed and size to get behind a flat footed Lidstrom; if he'd back up, Geno would enter the zone and pull up).

Malkin did not score a single ES point against Zetterberg or Lidstrom that series.

 

[yuri28]

Hockey is a five man game.

Cleary-Zetterberg-Holmstrom-Lidstrom-Rafalski versus Franzen-Filpula-Hossa-Kronwall-Stuart. If I grant you that the two best defensive players were on the former unit, then I'm sure you'll grant me that the three worst also were on that unit. End of the day, it hardly was a case of one unit having Carbonneau and Bourque and the other consisting of beer league talent.

If Pavel Datsyuk is healthy (and not on a broken foot) and centering the second unit-- which was the plan-- then there's no question who faces the more difficult unit.

For as well as Zetterberg and Lidstrom match up against Sid, they look like **** against Geno, and it showed throughout the series when that was the matchup. Sid lacks the size to match up against Zetterberg like Geno does. Sid lacked the patience to matchup against Lidstrom like Geno did (where Sid would try to go at Lidstrom 9000 mph, Geno was more deliberate on the rush . . . if Lidstrom would step up, Geno would dump the puck as use his speed and size to get behind a flat footed Lidstrom; if he'd back up, Geno would enter the zone and pull up).

To borrow your vapid analogy, it's why Carbonneau and Bourque looked better against Gretzky than Lemieux . . . it was less about who is better than the differences between Gretzky and Lemieux and how those impacted the matchup.

I'm surprised by you on this one. Yuri's point was just so dumb that Sniper's sarcasm was so much better an approach to deal with it than an equally 'colossally stupid' argument.

I still love ya though.

Initially, my point was just to say that Sid didn't play fine during the SC finals but ok.

 

[KIRK]

Oh Jesus.

Hey IC, tell me which one of these statement is wrong:

1. Malkin matched up better against Lidstrom and Zetterberg because he's bigger than Sid. Not saying THAT is why Babcock chased the matchup he did.

2. What is wrong with objecting to Peepers Carbonneau and Bourque versus beer leaguers analogy? Just so over the top in reply to Yuri's over the top stupidity. Anyone with half a brain knows Sid faced the tougher matchup. And?

****, Sid matches up better against Couturier and Grossman than Geno does. It's not about better. It's about Sid's speed advantage.

There, NOW can some people here stop getting their knickers in a twist and treat Yuri's stupidity like it deserves.

I think Sniper handled it perfectly.

Initially, my point was just to say that Sid didn't play fine during the SC finals but ok.

I read the give and take here, and whatever you think your point was, it was really, really inane. The people calling you out here were 100% in the right until Peeper's silly analogy, which is the only reason I joined the conversation.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

+ Craig Adams not in the lineup. I can’t….I don’t….I’m not even sure if I’m feeling.
+ Geno – all has been said. It is known.
+ 4th line owning possession, cycling, and drawing a penalty, all while being better than the other team’s 4th line. I can’t….I don’t….
+ PP setup and PP goals. Kunitz gone and Pouliot in. Yes please.
+ MAF’s huge save on Johansen 2 on 1. That save was gigantic. Reminded me a lot of the Ovechkin game 7 breakaway save in 09; not because the plays themselves were similar, but because it was a very high percentage scoring chance in a close game that really had an effect on how the game went afterwards.
+ Hornqvist – Relentless.
+ Kunitz – going to the front of the net. Thinking he was James Neal lite was an awful thing for his game. On Geno’s line he’s creating space and causing jam-ups in front of the net (which is odd in that you would think Hornqvist’s game would reap the same benefits on that line). If the old forecheck can return….
+ Winnik – whoever had the post about his size, wingspan, and strength keeping him away from being pinned to the boards and giving a couple extra seconds to make a play was really good.
- Sutter – the play where JJ literally nudged him not only off the puck but out of the play entirely, before taking the puck coast to coast was just the quintessential Sutter play for me.
- Taking the high road – Johansen hit Sid high, Clarkson took a faceoff just to slash Malkin, and Despres was seriously boarded. I’d like some response there. I’m not in the “enforcer” crowd but I do like quality hockey players that aren’t afraid to punch faces.

I also like the idea of sending out my top PP regardless of the score to embarrass the team responsible for goonery. Putting Scuderi on the PP or as a poster called it the “prevent defense PP” was pathetic. Rack the points, get Geno the hat-trick, and let him one-leg celebrate in front of that Columbus bench.
= Just a thought it might be time to try Perron with Malkin. I hope it’s just a case of “took Sid a while to adapt to Hossa” but sometimes where Perron’s linemates go is a mystery. So often I see Perron carry the LW boards, make a seemingly easy but really actually difficult and nifty move to keep the puck away from a defender closing in on his space, with Sid streaking straight-line to the goal and looping back to the RW boards and back to the point, while Hornqvist B-lines to the net. Perron is left with a defender still right on him, no lane to get the puck through to Hornqvist, a rushed drop pass, or dumping the puck around the boards with Hornqvist’s defender likely to step behind the net to play the puck easily. Sid kind of refuses to change it up. Maybe he could pull back and not cut full speed to the net, or if he does, to peel back to the LW boards to be support for Perron to chip it in deep. I know it seems like picking on Sid but it sometimes seems like him peeling back up the RW boards is out of frustration he didn’t get the puck forced to him on a low-percentage full-speed pass. I dunno.
+Letang (you knew it was coming) – I know I’m the board’s designated Letang homer and sometimes I might come off as personally offended when he’s “criticized” but I just knew after the bad pass on the PP, the poor PP shot that rang high and wide out of the zone, and the SH giveaway this place would overreact. 3 bad plays, one the led to a goal against in a game already decided, but I lost count of how many times he single-handedly destroyed a normally effective Columbus forecheck.

The constant GDT posts of “he’s stupid” and “he has such a low IQ” posts are puzzling to say the least. You see someone use speed to get ahead of a forward, keep an eye on where that forward intends to go, throw fakes and jukes to get that forward to bite, and reverse the play out of a high-traffic area prone for defensive turnovers, and the puck is back in the Penguins possession heading up ice as the defending team falls back on its heels. That’s not a play just born to natural gifts or athleticism; that’s hockey IQ! I don’t get how you see that play happen multiple times a period, say nothing, and then end up repeatedly posting about how stupid a guy is for forcing a pass or being careless with the puck on the PP (something 100% of the PP is guilty of). A little more urgency on short-handed chances, better puck-support on zone entry, and Sid coming off the right boards with a purpose fixes most of that anyway.

 

[HMPens]

+ Craig Adams not in the lineup. I can’t….I don’t….I’m not even sure if I’m feeling.
+ Geno – all has been said. It is known.
+ 4th line owning possession, cycling, and drawing a penalty, all while being better than the other team’s 4th line. I can’t….I don’t….
+ PP setup and PP goals. Kunitz gone and Pouliot in. Yes please.
+ MAF’s huge save on Johansen 2 on 1. That save was gigantic. Reminded me a lot of the Ovechkin game 7 breakaway save in 09; not because the plays themselves were similar, but because it was a very high percentage scoring chance in a close game that really had an effect on how the game went afterwards.
+ Hornqvist – Relentless.
+ Kunitz – going to the front of the net. Thinking he was James Neal lite was an awful thing for his game. On Geno’s line he’s creating space and causing jam-ups in front of the net (which is odd in that you would think Hornqvist’s game would reap the same benefits on that line). If the old forecheck can return….
+ Winnik – whoever had the post about his size, wingspan, and strength keeping him away from being pinned to the boards and giving a couple extra seconds to make a play was really good.
- Sutter – the play where JJ literally nudged him not only off the puck but out of the play entirely, before taking the puck coast to coast was just the quintessential Sutter play for me.
- Taking the high road – Johansen hit Sid high, Clarkson took a faceoff just to slash Malkin, and Despres was seriously boarded. I’d like some response there. I’m not in the “enforcer†crowd but I do like quality hockey players that aren’t afraid to punch faces.

I also like the idea of sending out my top PP regardless of the score to embarrass the team responsible for goonery. Putting Scuderi on the PP or as a poster called it the “prevent defense PP†was pathetic. Rack the points, get Geno the hat-trick, and let him one-leg celebrate in front of that Columbus bench.
= Just a thought it might be time to try Perron with Malkin. I hope it’s just a case of “took Sid a while to adapt to Hossa†but sometimes where Perron’s linemates go is a mystery. So often I see Perron carry the LW boards, make a seemingly easy but really actually difficult and nifty move to keep the puck away from a defender closing in on his space, with Sid streaking straight-line to the goal and looping back to the RW boards and back to the point, while Hornqvist B-lines to the net. Perron is left with a defender still right on him, no lane to get the puck through to Hornqvist, a rushed drop pass, or dumping the puck around the boards with Hornqvist’s defender likely to step behind the net to play the puck easily. Sid kind of refuses to change it up. Maybe he could pull back and not cut full speed to the net, or if he does, to peel back to the LW boards to be support for Perron to chip it in deep. I know it seems like picking on Sid but it sometimes seems like him peeling back up the RW boards is out of frustration he didn’t get the puck forced to him on a low-percentage full-speed pass. I dunno.
+Letang (you knew it was coming) – I know I’m the board’s designated Letang homer and sometimes I might come off as personally offended when he’s “criticized†but I just knew after the bad pass on the PP, the poor PP shot that rang high and wide out of the zone, and the SH giveaway this place would overreact. 3 bad plays, one the led to a goal against in a game already decided, but I lost count of how many times he single-handedly destroyed a normally effective Columbus forecheck.

The constant GDT posts of “he’s stupid†and “he has such a low IQ†posts are puzzling to say the least. You see someone use speed to get ahead of a forward, keep an eye on where that forward intends to go, throw fakes and jukes to get that forward to bite, and reverse the play out of a high-traffic area prone for defensive turnovers, and the puck is back in the Penguins possession heading up ice as the defending team falls back on its heels. That’s not a play just born to natural gifts or athleticism; that’s hockey IQ! I don’t get how you see that play happen multiple times a period, say nothing, and then end up repeatedly posting about how stupid a guy is for forcing a pass or being careless with the puck on the PP (something 100% of the PP is guilty of). A little more urgency on short-handed chances, better puck-support on zone entry, and Sid coming off the right boards with a purpose fixes most of that anyway.

You are not the only Letang homer, I agree totally with you. It seems like there are some who like to follow the "low hockey IQ" narrative. Maybe they think they have a much higher IQ. I guess it's my fault for not jumping on to give another perspective instead of just shaking my head at the comments.

 

[wgknestrick]

BB needs to be moved up off the 4th line. He's wasted there. Actually our entire 4th line needs more minutes now. We can't keep thinking Adams is on the 4th line and we need to avoid them. I want to see more evenly distributed minutes across the board now. The 4th line this team has is actually quite good. If we can get Duppers back too.....omg this team's wings.

+Malkin, my god
+It is nice to finally see a healthy Adams in the trash can.
-MAF still showing reasons to be very concerned in the playoffs.
-Crosby needs some stern words on shooting the freaking puck. Is TK available for personal 1v1 coaching? Crosby is just not our #1 center anymore. I'd like to see his minutes limited as well. No need to play him 19min/game. It obviously isn't helping him.

This team is still in trouble without fixing it's 5v5 scoring. I love how every game that we get a couple PP goals has everyone thinking this team is "back" to being a contender, and feeling good.....Then when they don't score a PPG, we ***** and moan at another loss. This team is way too dependent on the PP to be a contender in this version of the NHL. Playoffs are going to have 2-3 PP opportunities at best. We aren't going to score on many of those either.....ie most games are going to be a coin toss. In addition, we probably have to eliminate the best team in the NHL (NYI) to get out of our division.

The team is improving, but I still see this team being a true underdog against the first 2 playoff opponents.

 

[Acquizitor*]

god!

guys, whats all this "71>87" **** again? playoffs are coming, we'll have the summer to discuss "who's better, why etc"

the question now should be "how to keep geno as motivated as he is now into playoffs knowing how unstable/streaky he can be" and "how to make Sid want to win another cap again"..

the key to taking the cup would be to have the entire team very motivated, starting with the Captain.