Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 3- Jussi that? You Jokinen Me?

[MrBurghundy]

Its really an exercise in futility even discussing this topic. Nothing will ever change.

 

[Muscles4Malkin]

Flip Beau and Pascal = Problem solved.


Or even Kobasew...

Or trade Despres for Palmieri.


Problem solved.

 

[MtlPenFan]

The big one from last night was when Crosby was all alone going to the net and Dupes rifled it off the defenders skate. The defender was even drifting to him and left the crease wide open for Crosby. A little happy sauce and Crosby walks in all alone.

Was that the one in the 3rd period? Because if it is, I'm glad someone else noticed it as a bad play by Dupuis rather than a good play by the defenseman.

The D didn't even try to block the pass, he simply skated towards Dupuis and Dupuis accommodated him by rifling it right into his skates.

I'm sorry, but Beau gets that puck through.

 

[Waffle Fries]

In other words, the distance between Sid/Geno and Stamkos/Toews/Kane etc. is barely a hair's width, so this continued nonsense of "BUT WE HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD!!!" no longer applies as it once did.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't agree with this. While the gap isn't quite Gretzky-like there is a considerable margin between Crosby and those players you named. Toews and Kane in particular don't come anywhere close.

It should be an advantage to have the two best players in the world, but we don't exploit that advantage.

 

[Old Gregg]

What I wouldn't give for

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Kobasew - Sutter - Dupuis
Jeffrey - Vitale - Glass/Adams/...

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

While a salary cap certainly doesn't help our cause, it does seem to me even the coaching staff and front office have fallen into the fanboy trap of believing that simply anyone can be plugged in alongside Sid and Geno and everything will be golden.

This and ...

I've been saying this for years now. I'm okay with Kunitz with Sid. I'm okay with Dupuis with Sid, but I'm NOT okay with BOTH of them with Sid.

This are spot on, and mirror my thoughts on this (beaten to death) topic.

In regards to the first quote, it does seem like the organization as a whole uses the "Sid can produce with anyone" mantra and almost ignores the struggles his line has when the playoffs come around and teams check him more closely. Bylsma's continued refusal to upgrade his line, despite having the options to do so (Bennett), is beyond frustrating.

In regards to the second quote, I too would be fine with Kunitz OR Dupuis on Sid's line. But just not both of them. Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett or Dupuis-Crosby-Bennett is fine, and you wouldn't find me complaining. What makes it difficult to even watch hockey games without gritting my teeth is when it's constantly Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis aka the best line in hockey.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't agree with this. While the gap isn't quite Gretzky-like there is a considerable margin between Crosby and those players you named. Toews and Kane in particular don't come anywhere close.

It should be an advantage to have the two best players in the world, but we don't exploit that advantage.

Whereas we don't fully exploit that advantage, I believe we are taking baby steps in that direction. Playing Neal with Malkin last year was a no brainer, but it led to tremendous results for Neal. Results he would not gain with a more ordinary center. Now the staff has put JJ on that line, and we are reaping the benefits. JJ is a solid player, but with Malkin (or Crosby) he is a highlight reel.

As we see a few more odd shifts with Crosby and BB, I am hoping the staff and/or Crosby realize just what a difference the guy can make, and they try it out more often. The presence of J.Mart on our staff, I am hoping, may help this kind of thing over the course of the season. It's my understanding J.Mart was Jeffrey's biggest champion, and we see him getting a meaningful role and minutes, and looking good.

As to the Toews and Kane comparison, that's ridiculous on the face of it. Stamkos brings goal scoring at a world-class level, but that single aspect of his game does not equate to the sum total of what Crosby or Geno bring.

Most people would have said that Giroux is the closest thing to Crosby or Malkin in the league, but those comparisons have stopped. Consistency with changing circumstances and health is not easy.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

What I wouldn't give for

Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal
Kobasew - Sutter - Dupuis
Jeffrey - Vitale - Glass/Adams/...

This line-up makes me sad...

DB constantly putting this team at a disadvantage with his line-ups is prolly the thing I hate most about him. There is at least an excuse if he can't figure out a system or some other coach figures out his system, but putting the right players in the right spots is coaching 101.

He literally put a Hall of Fame right winger, who has shown past chemistry with Sid, on Geno's left wing just so he could keep "the best line in the league" together.

 

[themethod7]

In other words, the distance between Sid/Geno and Stamkos/Toews/Kane etc. is barely a hair's width, so this continued nonsense of "BUT WE HAVE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD!!!" no longer applies as it once did.

Give Sid a winger like Pat Kane or Marty St. Louis and you'd see just how far ahead he is. He's already head and shoulders above the rest of the league and I'd bet my house that a full season with Pat Kane on his wing and he'd hit 140+ pts.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't agree with this. While the gap isn't quite Gretzky-like there is a considerable margin between Crosby and those players you named. Toews and Kane in particular don't come anywhere close.

It should be an advantage to have the two best players in the world, but we don't exploit that advantage.

Even as a badge wearing Penguins homer, I just don't see the "considerable margin" that many Penguins fans see.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Give Sid a winger like Pat Kane or Marty St. Louis and you'd see just how far ahead he is. He's already head and shoulders above the rest of the league and I'd bet my house that a full season with Pat Kane on his wing and he'd hit 140+ pts.

See, that's a very fair argument, but by the way the staff runs things, it looks like we'll never find out.

 

[mpp9]

Even as a badge wearing Penguins homer, I just don't see the "considerable margin" that many Penguins fans see.

It's fine to say that Sid's talent level doesn't make up for the disparity between his linemates and the rest of the 1C's in the game. But he's certainly on another level from everyone but Malkin. They are the most consistently dominant players.

Kane has the luxury of going several games at a time without making an offensive impact. Sid and Geno don't.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Even as a badge wearing Penguins homer, I just don't see the "considerable margin" that many Penguins fans see.

Who does Patty Kane play with?

When Sid plays with just about HHOF's consistently you might just get my vote.

Toews, Kane
Stamkos, St. Louis
Sid with Kunitz or Dupuis had "never" had those two wingers score on the scale any of those players. Sid still does most of it on his own.


It's really not that hard a concept to figure out.

 

[MrBurghundy]

See, that's a very fair argument, but by the way the staff runs things, it looks like we'll never find out.

Another career of a dominant Penguins player with the question of "what if?" attached to it.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

A 3rd line of Kobasew- Sutter and Dupuis just makes too much sense. Up to DB to figure it out

 

[MrBurghundy]

A 3rd line of Kobasew- Sutter and Dupuis just makes too much sense. Up to DB to figure it out

Don't go holding your breath.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Don't see that changing anything. Remember the Pens have a coach who played one of the best right wingers in the game for the last 10+ years on his off wing. All in the name of not breaking up the KCD line.

 

[mpp9]

Another thing I noticed at the game. Bortuzzo is a beast. Seeing him battle Staal in front of the net and guys bouncing off of him in the corners. Hope he's a Pen for a long time.

 

[themethod7]

Another career of a dominant Penguins player with the question of "what if?" attached to it.

What if... Shero had drafted just one less defenseman:

2009:

Simon Despres (30) --> Jakob Silfverberg (39)​

2011:

Joe Morrow (24) --> Matt Puempel (25), Brandon Saad (43)​

Scott Harrington (54) --> Nikita Kucherov (58)​

2012:

Derrick Pouliot (8) --> Filip Forsberg (11)​

I don't like this game.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Don't see that changing anything. Remember the Pens have a coach who played one of the best right wingers in the game for the last 10+ years on his off wing. All in the name of not breaking up the KCD line.

Yeah, let's be honest, the best case scenario would be,

Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis (can't hurt Dupuis' fee fees or break up TBLitRS)
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal (the functional line)
Kobasew - Sutter - Bennett
Palmieri - Adams - Glass

Or Palmieri in the press box, or a 4th line of Palmieri - Adams - Bennett.


Kunitz - Crosby - Bennett
Jokinen - Malkin - Neal

Would have so much flexibility, Jokinen, Kunitz and Bennett could be shuffled around so easily for different situations.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Even as a badge wearing Penguins homer, I just don't see the "considerable margin" that many Penguins fans see.

It's not just Penguins fans that see it.

As mentioned every other star player in the league has linemates that are much, much more talented than anyone Crosby has played with for a significant amount of time and he still manages to decisively seperate himself. I think that speaks volumes.

Outside of Geno when he's on, no one in the league comes close to Crosby.

 

[Til the End of Time]

the "what if" game with regards to crosbys linemates is annoying.

yes its clear hes held back by his wingers, but history isnt going to remember that. point totals and awards are objective measures of greatness. crosby needs to distant himself as far and away the best player by dominating regular season/playoff performances, which can only happen if he stays healthy and gets a better winger.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

What if... Shero had drafted just one less defenseman:

2009:

Simon Despres (30) --> Jakob Silfverberg (39)​

2011:

Joe Morrow (24) --> Matt Puempel (25), Brandon Saad (43)​

Scott Harrington (54) --> Nikita Kucherov (58)​

2012:

Derrick Pouliot (8) --> Filip Forsberg (11)​

I don't like this game.

You're not allowed to question any of Shero's picks until they're finished products.

You could add:
2009: Ryan O'Reilly (33), Kyle Clifford (35), Alex Chiasson (38)
2012: Mikhail Grigorenko (12), Tom Wilson (16), Tomas Hertl (17), Teuvo Teravainen (18)

 

[MtlPenFan]

It's not just Penguins fans that see it.

As mentioned every other star player in the league has linemates that are much, much more talented than anyone Crosby has played with for a significant amount of time and he still manages to decisively seperate himself. I think that speaks volumes.

Outside of Geno when he's on, no one in the league comes close to Crosby.

Again, I'm not saying he's not better, but the difference isn't Mario/Gretzky like.

And again, some Pens fans (and seemingly the organization) have tricked themselves into believing he is, which results in fans thinking Cups should be near automatic, and the FO thinking they can stick anyone on his line and they'll win nearly every game.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Again, I'm not saying he's not better, but the difference isn't Mario/Gretzky like.

And again, some Pens fans (and seemingly the organization) have tricked themselves into believing he is, which results in fans thinking Cups should be near automatic, and the FO thinking they can stick anyone on his line and they'll win nearly every game.

I'm not saying the difference is Gretzky like either, I'm saying that it's still a considerable margin and certainly more than "barely a hair's width"

But I do agree with your second paragraph