Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 3- Jussi that? You Jokinen Me?

[themethod7]

You're not allowed to question any of Shero's picks until they're finished products.

You could add:
2009: Ryan O'Reilly (33), Kyle Clifford (35), Alex Chiasson (38)
2012: Mikhail Grigorenko (12), Tom Wilson (16), Tomas Hertl (17), Teuvo Teravainen (18)

I'm not even questioning whether any of those were good/bad picks, just saying, had he used just one of those picks on a winger instead of a defenseman, I think we'd be in better shape overall.

We have exactly one forward prospect that projects to be a top-6 forward in the next 2-3 years, and we have more defensemen than we know what to do with in that same time frame. Just look 2 years from now, offseason before 2015-2016... let's say between now and then you let Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, and Martin all walk, and you manage to trade a 36yr old Scuderi - you still don't have enough room for all the defensemen who are already or are likely to be NHL-ready by then: Letang, Bortuzzo, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, Harrington, Pouliot, Ruopp. That's not even counting the fact that we let Strait go for nothing, and Lovejoy for next to nothing.

Having arguably the best stable of young defensemen is not a bad problem to have, but at some point I don't see how they don't end up moving one (or more) for a young stud winger; otherwise, they risk losing them for nothing. Given all that, I don't think it's out of the question to suggest at least 1 or 2 of those picks should have been forwards right from the start.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Was that the one in the 3rd period? Because if it is, I'm glad someone else noticed it as a bad play by Dupuis rather than a good play by the defenseman.

The D didn't even try to block the pass, he simply skated towards Dupuis and Dupuis accommodated him by rifling it right into his skates.

I'm sorry, but Beau gets that puck through.

Yep, it was.

The defenseman even made a huge mistake and left the middle wide open for Crosby and floated to Dupuis who tuuked it away, if you catch my drift.

I'm not even questioning whether any of those were good/bad picks, just saying, had he used just one of those picks on a winger instead of a defenseman, I think we'd be in better shape overall.

We have exactly one forward prospect that projects to be a top-6 forward in the next 2-3 years, and we have more defensemen than we know what to do with in that same time frame. Just look 2 years from now, offseason before 2015-2016... let's say between now and then you let Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, and Martin all walk, and you manage to trade a 36yr old Scuderi - you still don't have enough room for all the defensemen who are already or are likely to be NHL-ready by then: Letang, Bortuzzo, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin, Harrington, Pouliot, Ruopp. That's not even counting the fact that we let Strait go for nothing, and Lovejoy for next to nothing.

Having arguably the best stable of young defensemen is not a bad problem to have, but at some point I don't see how they don't end up moving one (or more) for a young stud winger; otherwise, they risk losing them for nothing. Given all that, I don't think it's out of the question to suggest at least 1 or 2 of those picks should have been forwards right from the start.

Fact is, he didn't take any wingers. Certain posters will continue to whine about Shero's drafting relentlessly, but Shero made his choices and now has to leverage his assets.

Would it even matter anyway? Kunitz, Neal and Dupuis will be here for another four years.

BB is a very talented young winger who is well beyond his years in his own end, yet he can't crack the top six. If he does, great. But where would this other winger prospect play then? People keep ignoring the fact DB is the coach when they whine about Shero's drafting.

DB certainly wouldn't play the likes of Grigs, FF, Silverberg, etc over Dupes or Kunitz.

So basically, if Shero drafts a winger first next Summer, he will be ready about the time Dupes and Kunitz retire.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Those lines are the equivalent of Michael J. Fox busting out that guitar solo at the end of The Michael J Fox Show.........

Fixed for you

 

[Rocket of Russia]

Yep, it was.

The defenseman even made a huge mistake and left the middle wide open for Crosby and floated to Dupuis who tuuked it away, if you catch my drift.



Fact is, he didn't take any wingers. Certain posters will continue to whine about Shero's drafting relentlessly, but Shero made his choices and now has to leverage his assets.

Would it even matter anyway? Kunitz, Neal and Dupuis will be here for another four years.

BB is a very talented young winger who is well beyond his years in his own end, yet he can't crack the top six. If he does, great. But where would this other winger prospect play then? People keep ignoring the fact DB is the coach when they whine about Shero's drafting.

DB certainly wouldn't play the likes of Grigs, FF, Silverberg, etc over Dupes or Kunitz.

So basically, if Shero drafts a winger first next Summer, he will be ready about the time Dupes and Kunitz retire.

If the coach is hindering the drafting strategy of the GM, then the GM needs to address the coach. Who am I kidding...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

If the coach is hindering the drafting strategy of the GM, then the GM needs to address the coach. Who am I kidding...

Bylsma won a cup in 2009, respect him, that's a decade of free passes. Even if it was with someone else's system... respect.


Jokinen makes me recognize just why KCD doesn't work and by how much, it sucks to be reminded. Can anyone see Kunitz or Dupuis doing what he did in the first goal or anything close?

 

[IcedCapp]

If the coach is hindering the drafting strategy of the GM, then the GM needs to address the coach. Who am I kidding...

#FastestTo200

 

[KIRK]

My eye is always on the playoffs, with good reason and finding a combo that helps Crosby when it truly matters.

So ya, I don't think this is a three game issue with Dupes. Many of us having been saying for years he isn't a legit top line winger. I keep seeing the same things every season that worry me... And low and behold these issues come to the forefront when Crosby is being tightly checked in the playoffs.

Stats don't matter much to me with him TBTH. He is productive no matter where he is put. However, there is a huge difference between regular season production and making keys plays when there is little time and space in the playoffs.

In the last two games, Dupes had Crosby all alone in five instances I consider easy plays that require a little skill and touch, but blew it each time. The one time he rifled a puck at Crosby when he was all alone in a free gap and it bounced off his stick. If Crosby can't handle a pass, I mean c'mon. All Dupes needed to do was feather the pass... I couldn't believe he passed the puck that hard... But then I realized its Dupes... Good guy, hard worker, but expecting him to have skills he wasn't born with isn't fair.

The big one from last night was when Crosby was all alone going to the net and Dupes rifled it off the defenders skate. The defender was even drifting to him and left the crease wide open for Crosby. A little happy sauce and Crosby walks in all alone.

He isn't going to change at this age. He will hit his streaks this season, but déjà vue will set in come playoff time as always. Unless the Pens somehow avoid all of the elite checking teams.

Jiggy, I think the real issue is that you can have one of but not both Kunitz and Dupuis with Sid. It's not the finish or specific skill. Both are ideal third wheels for him. BUT, both together with him makes it too easy for a good defensive team to defend him: Mark him with a checking center, collapse around him, and make his wingers make a 1 on 1 play.

Dupes is there to stay I feel and that's what bothers me.

Chicago pissed all over Chara and Boston with their skill, while DB kept waiting for the "best line in the regular season" to take over.

Or more like he kept hoping Crosby would call on the power of Greyskull...

I'd have laughed aloud about the hyperbole of this post if there were anything about it that weren't 100% depressingly accurate.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If the coach is hindering the drafting strategy of the GM, then the GM needs to address the coach. Who am I kidding...

I wouldn't say DB is dictating Shero's strategy. Shero has come right out and said he believes blueliners carry significant value for an org, both in terms of your roster and as moveable assets. I was openly critical of this org inability to draft and develop wingers for years right up until a couple of Summers ago. With the Morrow and Harrington selections, I finally just accepted that is the way Shero rolls.

When he took Morrow, I was hoping for Rattie or Saad, but I kept my mouth shut and Morrow became my favorite prospect when I saw him play. The M&M trade I obviously expressed my disappointment, because B. Morrow I felt was too slow to be effective. But Shero made his choices so I had to accept it.

When DP and Maatta were chosen, that really drove home with 100%, zero doubt this was his strategy.

We just have to be patient and see what happens before truly judging Shero's drafting. I still recall all the tools whining about CP taking GoGo, because they had Whitney, Welch, and Nemec... And no one heard of this little midget out of High School, blah blah.

And my biggest point remains: FF, Grigs (who looks terrible so far), would never crack the top six here if BB can't. When BB does crack the top six, the other three, Neal, Kunitz, Dupes, are locked up long term. DB certainly wouldn't play a guy like FF who is terrible in his own end over any of those guys. He would most likely be in the A for another year or more, but then who does he replace? Because their top six looks set long term, barring injuries.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

I wouldn't say DB is dictating Shero's strategy. Shero has come right out and said he believes blueliners carry significant value for an org, both in terms of your roster and as moveable assets.

At the end of the day I don't think Shero is making decisions based on Bylsma. I was more or less just saying that quote above as a response to Shero drafting blueliners instead of wingers because they wouldn't play for DB anyway. I think recent history has been on Shero's side to prove him right that blueliners carry more weight. Even more so in the last draft we had a high pick, there wasn’t an abundance of elite forward prospects to choose from (there’s a reason Forsberg and Grigs fell as far as they did). I say this so as not to obscure where the main source of frustration is coming from:

My angst and dead inside feeling towards any regular season success doesn’t lie in Shero’s drafting of blueliners. It's Dupes in the top 6. It's KCD as a permanent fixture. It’s can we please find a way to get Bennett to the press box..IMMEDIATELY. It’s wondering who the next Eaton will be to replace Despres. It's the been there done that, but let's go at it again merry-go-round that I can’t seem to get off of.

And my biggest point remains: FF, Grigs (who looks terrible so far), would never crack the top six here if BB can't.

When BB does crack the top six, the other three, Neal, Kunitz, Dupes, are locked up long term. DB certainly wouldn't play a guy like FF who is terrible in his own end over any of those guys. He would most likely be in the A for another year or more, but then who does he replace? Because their top six looks set long term, barring injuries.

Yeah, that’s gonna be a bummer...when he's never put there.

You know what though? The offensively skilled but terrible defensively winger? At least that would be a NEW problem. We haven’t tried and failed at that recently. We’ve given Sid 2 defensively responsible forwards who can’t produce offense on their own. That has failed again and again in tight-checking playoff games, driven almost entirely not by our wingers’ inability to play the puck in our own end, but by their failure to create offense when teams collapse on Crosby. For the sake of this conversation if F. Forsberg was on a wing with Crosby and Kunitz (I won’t even say something as crazy as suggesting it could be a creative, defensively responsible young forward we already have), and we failed in the playoffs because teams kept line 1 hemmed in our own zone like our 4th line, then at least we could say we TRIED something new and it failed. But in all honesty I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Crosby and Kunitz were defensively responsible enough to make up for Forsberg’s shortcomings on the defensive side of the puck, and with the addition of creativity and puck patience from an offensively gifted player, line 1 could spend a lot more time in the offensive zone. I’m rambling. Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett. ONE TIME!

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Bylsma won a cup in 2009, respect him, that's a decade of free passes. Even if it was with someone else's system... respect.


Jokinen makes me recognize just why KCD doesn't work and by how much, it sucks to be reminded. Can anyone see Kunitz or Dupuis doing what he did in the first goal or anything close?

IF KCD ends up going on to produce like it did last season will you still be singing the same tune? I think people are once again jumping to conclusions WAY too soon.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

IF KCD ends up going on to produce like it did last season will you still be singing the same tune? I think people are once again jumping to conclusions WAY too soon.

Produce like when last season? Because they sure as hell didn't produce when they were needed.

No one cares about how well they do in the reg season.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Produce like when last season? Because they sure as hell didn't produce when they were needed.

No one cares about how well they do in the reg season.

Name me one player not named Vokoun that really consistently impressed you last playoffs? Do you honestly believe that swapping 1 or 2 guys on the top 6 would've changed just how brutal this team looked as a whole? If only things were so easy as they are in video games.

 

[Fordy]

IF KCD ends up going on to produce like it did last season will you still be singing the same tune? I think people are once again jumping to conclusions WAY too soon.

Yes.

 

[Fordy]

Name me one player not named Vokoun that really consistently impressed you last playoffs? Do you honestly believe that swapping 1 or 2 guys on the top 6 would've changed just how brutal this team looked as a whole? If only things were so easy as they are in video games.

Yes.

Maybe not so much as a whole but it would have drastically improved those individual lines. Which is what we're talking about, not the whole team.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Yes.

Dupuis still managed to put up 7 goals in 15 games (tied for 1st on the team) in spite of being 7th in TOI. Oh, and none of those goals came on the PP either.

Once again, I think we're looking for easy fixes to more complicated issues. The team executed like crap and therefore played like crap. When you're struggling to get out of the first round against the 8th seed Isles (who currently have one of the worst starting goalies in the league no less) then you know its a question of just more than where Beau Bennett happens to be playing.

Admittedly however, I still don't understand how DB could've scratched Jokinen for as many games as he did. His biggest mistake in my opinion.

 

[Fordy]

Dupuis still managed to put up 7 goals in 15 games (tied for 1st on the team) in spite of being 7th in TOI. Oh, and none of those goals came on the PP either.

Once again, I think we're looking for easy fixes to more complicated issues. The team executed like crap and therefore played like crap. When you're struggling to get out of the first round against the 8th seed Isles (who currently have one of the worst starting goalies in the league no less) then you know its a question of just more than where Beau Bennett happens to be playing.

Admittedly however, I still don't understand how DB could've scratched Jokinen for as many games as he did. His biggest mistake in my opinion.

I don't care how many goals Dupuis scores, I care how many he prevents Crosby from scoring.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

I don't care how many goals Dupuis scores, I care how many he prevents Crosby from scoring.

Sid was also tied for first with 7...

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Name me one player not named Vokoun that really consistently impressed you last playoffs? Do you honestly believe that swapping 1 or 2 guys on the top 6 would've changed just how brutal this team looked as a whole? If only things were so easy as they are in video games.

The right players in the right spots is half the battle. It's been shown time and time again that KCD does not work against good defensive teams in the POs.

Using their reg season success is what led to Shero extending Db this summer when he should have been fired.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The right players in the right spots is half the battle. It's been shown time and time again that KCD does not work against good defensive teams in the POs.

Using their reg season success is what led to Shero extending Db this summer when he should have been fired.

They take the top players of the opposing teams on their plate. The half a battle that needs to happen is the other three lines need to step up, even individuals, who was that last playoffs?

Right! nobody.

When they were taking teams to task players/lines stepped up. Jordan Staal, Max Talbot, line 3/4 the odd goal at the right moment from unordinary sources. The bottom six had/has no identity anymore, but right now with Bennett, Sutter, Kobasew(when Neal is back) have a lot of identity and a chance to legitimize that line once more.

It doesn't matter that Staal is struggling in, Carolina. He thrived here in the role he was accustom too. He added that spark of stepping up to the plate when needed.

 

[mpp9]

Sid was also tied for first with 7...

Again. Sid's line was held in check for most of the Ottawa series. And aside from a few Crosby individual efforts, that line hardly had any scoring chances in the Boston series.

That line will not get it done once we start to face teams with legit shutdown defenders.

I don't see how anyone can't at least have some doubts about that line. As others have pointed out. Chicago had no trouble with the forcefield known as Chara, Bergeron and Rask the next series.

Why can't Sid have a skilled player on his line?

 

[Waffle Fries]

Dupuis still managed to put up 7 goals in 15 games (tied for 1st on the team) in spite of being 7th in TOI. Oh, and none of those goals came on the PP either.

Okay. None of them were on the PP. Cool. When were they scored though?

Let's see:

Two goals were scored in Game 1 of the Islanders series. Crosby did not play Game 1 of the Islanders series, so neither of those goals were scored with KCD.

One goal was scored in Game 3 of the Islanders series. (KCD on the ice)

One goal was scored in Game 4 of the Islanders series. (KCD on the ice)

One goal was scored in Game 6 of the Islanders series. He was on the ice with Vitale

His final two goals were scored in the Ottawa series. Both of them were shorthanded.

So let's recap:

2 of his 7 goals were scored shorthanded.

Of his 5 remaining even strength goals (all of which were scored in the Islanders series), 3 were scored without KCD on the ice.

So tell me again how pointing to the number of goals he scored in the playoffs proves that he should be play on that line when most of that production came away from that line (And against a crappy defensive team no less)?


And you want to talk about ice time? Okay. Here's a fun fact about ice time. Dupuis was second among forwards in even strength time on ice per game. Second. As in he averaged more even strength time per game than Geno and over a minute more than Kunitz.

That's quite a bit of time for someone who completely disappeared during even strength play after the Islanders series.

Also, go watch any of Crosby's goals from the playoffs and tell me which of them Dupuis was instrumental in.

The bottom line is Dupuis will perform the same way no matter what line he is on. He could be a real asset on the third line, but he does absolutely nothing to help Crosby.

 

[Darth Vitale]

OK this has gone OT for long enough. Shuttin' 'er down boys.