Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Game 1

[Shrimper]

Trading Sid or Geno makes no sense unless we'd be better/just as good off.

Also, last night was a bad game by Sid but had just 34% OZS and that isn't going to help.

 

[ColePens]

Ladies and Gents... a secret I will share with you.

Stop letting one poster take over a thread. It's an insanely weak argument and nobody agrees. Just let the individual post and post and post. When nobody responds - it will die off.

Jesus.. there is no need to explain to someone why trading Sid/Geno is dumb. If the question needs to be asked, there is no rational way you will get through to that individual. Just stop it.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

One thing that doesn't get talked about NEARLY enough is using Crosby and Malkin on the PK...ESPECIALLY when you run into early penalty trouble. You are playing into the opponents' hands when you don't do this.

It's so dumb to sit down two of the game's best, no matter what the situation calls for. Getting them into the game early reaps massive benefits late.

Hell, I guarantee you Sid and Geno won't have time to look disinterested if you increase their responsibilities.

The game situation should NOT determine ice time for our two best players. We need to adjust to them. So if we get 3 straight penalties in the first 10 minutes, those two still need to get the appropriate ice time.

The sad truth is if Craig Adams were dressed last night, he'd have played more than Sid or Geno early on.

Our next coach needs to understand bench management better, and also needs to play both of our horses in every situation, and use them early so they can get into the game.

This is basic, kindergarten stuff really!

 

[FRUSTRATEDPENFAN*]

Having those players on a team gives you a bias that they should win every other year, making the years they don't look like a conspicuous failure.

From this perspective, six straight years without a Cup seems like a titanic catastrophe.

However, what you want is a more traditional configuration, presumably to lessen the pain of failure that comes with (artificially) higher expectations.

There's no reason to believe that actually trading either of these players would increase the odds of winning a Stanley Cup for the foreseeable future. You won't get the value you would assume, and you would have to assume a greater emphasis on roster building through the draft, which has been the real failure around here.

Maybe you want the players traded so that it would limit management's proclivity towards short-term trades. Still, that's a big risk.

I get it, you'd rather have the mystery box with the hopes that a radical change would mean a big payoff. Most people's opinion seems to be that the evidence points towards failures surrounding those two players. Cashing in those players on the market still doesn't solve the biggest problems in Penguins management.

They're locked up with increasingly cap friendly deals for their career. They've won at least one Cup. They're still elite, if not dominant anymore. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Are they still elite ? Maybe their just having a bad season if not this team could be in for a rough ride the next few seasons. Crosby not producing is concerning Malkin is playing a bit better but still not playing at the level expected. If this continues then what's the plan ? Does Ownership management even have one ? This team depends on Crosby , Malkin to lead and being the offensive spark for this team which as of late they haven't been.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Ladies and Gents... a secret I will share with you.

Stop letting one poster take over a thread. It's an insanely weak argument and nobody agrees. Just let the individual post and post and post. When nobody responds - it will die off.

Jesus.. there is no need to explain to someone why trading Sid/Geno is dumb. If the question needs to be asked, there is no rational way you will get through to that individual. Just stop it.

There's also an ignore feature for your personal use and enjoyment. Huzzah!

 

[tom_servo]

Ladies and Gents... a secret I will share with you.

Stop letting one poster take over a thread. It's an insanely weak argument and nobody agrees. Just let the individual post and post and post. When nobody responds - it will die off.

I think it sometimes gains momentum the less it gets responded to. This idea of trading Crosby and/or Malkin is moving beyond the fringes, if you can believe it. People start to wonder why there is no counterpoint, when it is really people just being quiet.

Yeah, you can say that an idea is so ridiculous that it doesn't merit a response, but I sometimes disagree with that logic. It's like the 9/11 truthers. Responding with nothing but idle indignation isn't always the best answer.

 

[Daeni10]

One thing that doesn't get talked about NEARLY enough is using Crosby and Malkin on the PK...ESPECIALLY when you run into early penalty trouble. You are playing into the opponents' hands when you don't do this.

It's so dumb to sit down two of the game's best, no matter what the situation calls for. Getting them into the game early reaps massive benefits late.

Hell, I guarantee you Sid and Geno won't have time to look disinterested if you increase their responsibilities.

The game situation should NOT determine ice time for our two best players. We need to adjust to them. So if we get 3 straight penalties in the first 10 minutes, those two still need to get the appropriate ice time.

The sad truth is if Craig Adams were dressed last night, he'd have played more than Sid or Geno early on.

Our next coach needs to understand bench management better, and also needs to play both of our horses in every situation, and use them early so they can get into the game.

This is basic, kindergarten stuff really!

This + I cant believe that you cant teach players with so much talent and understanding of the game how to kill penalties. Maybe thats a point were I'm totally wrong because I never had a chance to play the game unfortunately, but I would imagine you could teach them to kill penalties if you work with them and give them like a half season.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think Sid and Geno aren't allowed to kill penalties because this team is a total ****show without either of them. There's no way we risk either of them taking a shot off the ankle and missing weeks/months just to get them some PK time.

Maybe if we weren't comprised of a bunch of AHLers and washed up vets, Sid and Geno could get some time killing penalties in an effort to be more dangerous shorthanded, but that simply isn't the case.

It makes no sense to risk the two of them getting hurt for a slim chance at a shorthanded goal.

 

[Tumty]

Look up Koivu and Parise's cap hits. They cost roughly 14.25 million per year together. Also, what makes you think the Wild would take on Scuderi's contract in the trade? You said yourself that no team would take on that contract.

You have confirmed my suspicion that you have no idea how the trade market works.

What the **** are you talking about? Show me when i said that. Wrong person? Well to get Geno, they would have to take it. Because of cap hit. But yeah, i was just asking for you guys.

 

[MtlPenFan]

2 things on your fantastic post:

1) The Breakout: This is the one aspect where you can fault injuries and you can fault the Despres trade. The d-men were just swinging the puck up the board as hard as they could and hoping for a chip out to safety. Ironically... at times it even worked because it didn't let the Rangers pinch their dman in. We sprung a couple 3 on 2s and even 2 on 1s early in the 2nd because the Rangers were trying to pinch in on it. They quickly backed off the rest of the game when they found out the Pens defense refused to skate the puck to safety or make a direct pass. It was weird.

I've never been one to blame injuries. This is one situation where I have to. It killed our possession. It killed our transition. It murdered our forwards because they had to work every shift trying to make it work.

2) Identity: We've talked about it for years. We want to be fast and big. It's not plausible. I was watching Anaheim last night and they kept talking about Anaheim struggling against fast teams (1-6 I believe was the record) during the 2nd period when WPG was taking it to them. They committed to being big. Chicago committed to being skilled and not focused on hits. LA focused on being big. Rangers focused on being fast and furious. Isles, too.

Bottom line - PICK AN IDENTITY. Develop your own. Just pick one and build on it. That's all.

Everybody laughed when we had guys like Vitale, TK, Letestu, Farny, etc.... but the thing is - it works. It actually works when used properly. The line went out and played fast/furious.

The only thing I'll disagree with there is that Anaheim isn't fast. I've been watching them a lot since Simon was traded, and most of them can motor. The ones who can't are so big that it doesn't really matter because they can fend guys off easily with their size and strength, especially Perry and Getzlaf.

Again, these are paid professionals who are making money scouting and making personnel decisions, many who have more experience than any of us when it comes to playing the actual game at the highest level.

It's baffling to me how these men can look at Lovejoy and say "That's a guy we need," and I'm not even talking about what they thought a fair price for acquiring him was.

It's been proven for YEARS since the lockout what it takes to win because of how systematic the game has become, and how lax the enforcement of the rules has once again become.

You need speed AND/OR size. That's it. That's the list. Speed to cause chaos on the forecheck like the Rangers and Hawks, or size to be able to pound a team into submission like the Kings. If you can have both, more power to you.

Defensively, again I'll use the 'Hawks as an example. The 'Hawks (except for Roszival who is ****ing awful) have 5 guys that can transition and basically play forward, making every foray into the offensive zone 5 on 5 in the purest sense. There is no Rob Scuderi "shooting wide on purpose" because he doesn't have the puck skills of an ECHL d-man.

But what do our paid pros do? They acquire the worst combination of traits in almost every position, almost as if they didn't bother to actually scout anyone or worse still, don't see the way the League itself is trending.

Big guys who can't hit
Small guys who aren't fast

And the biggest offense of all: acquiring smallish defensemen with the thought that they will sacrifice size and physicality because they'll be able to move the puck surgically and get involved in the offense once the cycle is established. But guess what a-holes, you can't do that with Scuderi and Lovejoy as stalwarts.

A dozen of us here can right now quit our jobs, head to the CEC and do a better job assembling a team for TODAY'S game than these ****ing morons. I used to say stuff like that tongue-in-cheek, but now I actually believe it.

 

[billybudd]

It's been proven for YEARS since the lockout what it takes to win because of how systematic the game has become, and how lax the enforcement of the rules has once again become.

You need speed AND/OR size. That's it. That's the list. Speed to cause chaos on the forecheck like the Rangers and Hawks, or size to be able to pound a team into submission like the Kings. If you can have both, more power to you.

Defensively, again I'll use the 'Hawks as an example. The 'Hawks (except for Roszival who is ****ing awful) have 5 guys that can transition and basically play forward, making every foray into the offensive zone 5 on 5 in the purest sense. There is no Rob Scuderi "shooting wide on purpose" because he doesn't have the puck skills of an ECHL d-man.

But what do our paid pros do? They acquire the worst combination of traits in almost every position, almost as if they didn't bother to actually scout anyone or worse still, don't see the way the League itself is trending.

Big guys who can't hit
Small guys who aren't fast

And the biggest offense of all: acquiring smallish defensemen with the thought that they will sacrifice size and physicality because they'll be able to move the puck surgically and get involved in the offense once the cycle is established. But guess what a-holes, you can't do that with Scuderi and Lovejoy as stalwarts.

A dozen of us here can right now quit our jobs, head to the CEC and do a better job assembling a team for TODAY'S game than these ****ing morons. I used to say stuff like that tongue-in-cheek, but now I actually believe it.

Good post. Agree totally.

I know it sounds stupid, but I firmly believe that swapping out every below average skater with the best skating guys from Wilkes-Barre would give us a better chance to win a game in this series than the status quo. This includes guys like Megna, who I don't like a single other thing about his game other than his wheels.

I'd make the same argument about big, physical players, but we don't have any of those in Wilkes-Barre, except, like, Ruopp.

 

[ChrisKuuuunitz]

Mark Madden said Crosby had 4 minutes of ice time in the first period because of all the penalties.

Obviously nobody realized this that our best player was barely on the ice in probably the most important period of the most important game.

I still think most of his struggles are in his head, he try's to play too fast, and is still in that speed only mentality.

He obviously need to shoot more, and needs to realize when to be creative, and when to just throw it at the net.

Oh and could use a better player than Winnik to play with.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I MUST BE STUPID not understanding why everyone wants them together when they can't win or even come close. Funny thing is the team that will win the cup this season won't have Crosby or Malkin on their team. Fluke I guess lol

You are not stupid, people are way too emotional when it comes to trading Sid or Geno. I called for the Pens to trade 2 out of Sid, Geno and Letang 2 years ago.

People freaked out. Again though, as I stated at the time, I only trade them if I get a GM with VISION that I trust. With this current FO, it doesn't matter what path they take since you already see the path we are currently on is doomed to fail.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Jesus Christ. Phil Bourque on Savran's show saying that if you put Plum high schoolers out with Sid and Geno, they should be able to produce. It's Sid and Geno's fault. They have to find a way.

This organization is just not likable. I'm sick of guys with zero talent riding Mario's coattails telling me how the game is played. Why don't you go revise your menu at that Blue Line Grille Mario got you, Phil.

Yeah, I feel the same way about that jagoff.

He was plug and play type player who thought that he was more important than he actually was for those great teams.

It's like the guy doesn't watch any hockey and doesn't understand that this isn't what the League is anymore.

"Phil, a caller earlier said that the reason Sid and Geno can't get going is because the transition game from the back end isn't very good right now"

"IF YOU'RE GREAT PLAYERS PROVE IT!!! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF NOBODY CAN GET YOU THE PUCK OR DO ANYTHING WITH IT ONCE THEY GET IT FROM YOU!!!"

 

[ColePens]

Mtl...it was their announcers saying that. I do not have enough study into their players to know. they have an identity though. That's for damn sure.

Their announcers were talking about how they struggle against speed teams.

 

[WayneSid9987]

The intentional off-side by Sid last night sums up his problems. Theres just not enough good players on this team and guys that go totally against the way MJ wants to play here. Big money being spent on anchors. Any GM worth a crap would be able to see that. Despres for Lovejoy. What a joke.

 

[zero8771]

Ladies and Gents... a secret I will share with you.

Stop letting one poster take over a thread. It's an insanely weak argument and nobody agrees. Just let the individual post and post and post. When nobody responds - it will die off.

Jesus.. there is no need to explain to someone why trading Sid/Geno is dumb. If the question needs to be asked, there is no rational way you will get through to that individual. Just stop it.

What about letting 2-3 posters take over ALL the threads. Which is what happened and where more or less most of the consensus opinions here come from

 

[displacedpensfan]

RE: KK's ELC years

I believe we can bring up KK for up to 10 games without burning a year of his ELC; if he plays any more than 6, that's a good thing as it means we are through to the second round, and there's a giant falloff from the Rags to the Caps and Isles, who we could probably handle without him.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Yeah, I feel the same way about that jagoff.

He was plug and play type player who thought that he was more important than he actually was for those great teams.

It's like the guy doesn't watch any hockey and doesn't understand that this isn't what the League is anymore.

"Phil, a caller earlier said that the reason Sid and Geno can't get going is because the transition game from the back end isn't very good right now"

"IF YOU'RE GREAT PLAYERS PROVE IT!!! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF NOBODY CAN GET YOU THE PUCK OR DO ANYTHING WITH IT ONCE THEY GET IT FROM YOU!!!"

In Phil's defense he's wrong and not wrong.

Back when Phil played, it didn't matter with Superstars. They could easily take over games and turn hazard cones into 30 goal scorers. If Crosby/Malkin played during that era, he's right.

That said, we're talking about now and there are no Lemieux and Gretzky's in the league. Crosby and Malkin are on the Sakic/Yzerman/Federov level. Players are better, faster, and stronger, there is less space, and teams are all adhering to a defensive system now instead of willy nilly pond hockey play your man and get burned.

Datsyuk made some amazing single handed plays last night that makes you wonder why Sid/Geno can't do it...so who the hell knows.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I'll take the blame for the loss. My avatar was too small.

 

[The Old Master]

Datsyuk made some amazing single handed plays last night that makes you wonder why Sid/Geno can't do it...so who the hell knows.

he had options and room and time. we don't seem to want to give them to sid or geno

 

[KIRK]

Good post. Agree totally.

I know it sounds stupid, but I firmly believe that swapping out every below average skater with the best skating guys from Wilkes-Barre would give us a better chance to win a game in this series than the status quo. This includes guys like Megna, who I don't like a single other thing about his game other than his wheels.

I'd make the same argument about big, physical players, but we don't have any of those in Wilkes-Barre, except, like, Ruopp.

It would only sound stupid if one were wholly unfamiliar with the Penguins.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, I feel the same way about that jagoff.

He was plug and play type player who thought that he was more important than he actually was for those great teams.

It's like the guy doesn't watch any hockey and doesn't understand that this isn't what the League is anymore.

"Phil, a caller earlier said that the reason Sid and Geno can't get going is because the transition game from the back end isn't very good right now"

"IF YOU'RE GREAT PLAYERS PROVE IT!!! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF NOBODY CAN GET YOU THE PUCK OR DO ANYTHING WITH IT ONCE THEY GET IT FROM YOU!!!"

One day I'd love to see someone ask that genius how many cups Mario won without two legit wingers and a couple of top offensive defensemen behind him.

 

[lastcupever75]

He was plug and play type player who thought that he was more important than he actually was for those great teams.

"

perfect description of him.

 

[displacedpensfan]

Good post. Agree totally.

I know it sounds stupid, but I firmly believe that swapping out every below average skater with the best skating guys from Wilkes-Barre would give us a better chance to win a game in this series than the status quo. This includes guys like Megna, who I don't like a single other thing about his game other than his wheels.

Fast and marginally talented is always better than slow and talentless (cough Kunitz cough).

Who knows maybe Megna's learned a thing or two out in WBS since we last saw him? He did pot 22 goals this year there. We know that Winnik has the wrong skillset for the Top 6, Kunitz is too slow to keep up, and Comeau's been a big question mark who's better suited to the 3rd line at this point. As much as the staff doesn't like Bennett, at least he's still got wheels, so try him in the Top 6.

One other crazy idea-try 1.5 shifting Perron and Hornquist rotating on Crosby and Malkin at center. I wouldn't do it for the rest of the series, but on the road it's probably worth a try to beat matchups.