Confirmed with Link: [COL / NYR] Chris Bigras Traded For Ryan Graves

[Puckstop40]

He has been very underwhelming in Vegas, and in my opinion needs to go at the deadline if possible.

the 3C we're looking for?

As a cheap rental maybe.

Well apparently he thinks I'm full of shit as he just scored on the first shot of the game for Vegas.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

Who was better than Duchene when he was here? Mack broke out after he left/same season duchene got traded. Sure the Avs didn’t surround duchene with the talent needed to win a cup but he also never showed the ability that he could be a franchise level player and 3 teams later there hasn’t been much of a difference. Sakic took note of this and has turned the franchise around. Sure if sucks that duchene isn’t here but that’s just part of being a professional athlete.

ROR was very arguably a better player, in terms of building a team long term. MacK hadn’t broken out, but he was better than Duchene in every manner.

I harbor no ill will against Duchene, honestly think far less of Staz for leaving than I do of Dutchy. But he was not the player he thought he was when in Colorado, and I think he now knows that. Still, his perspective coming out of the tough years - I get it, now. Wish him the best, as long as it isn’t at the cost of the Avs success.

and now, re-railing the topic - I like Graves a lot, but there isn’t a chance in hell I choose him over Z. What does Graves bring that cannot be replaced? IMO, not that much. The shutdown factor we have seen from Z - that’s the confluence of size and skill. Graves will NEVER have the size / intimidation / physicality of Z. And he doesn’t make up for it enough elsewhere for me to want to sacrifice him. Advanced stats be damned - yeah, I said it.

 

[Hasbro]

Should had traded Stastny for a 2nd round pick in 13-14 deadline! #AssetManagement

Shouldn’t have risked Sakic, Roy and Blake going free agent in ‘01. Should have traded them to the Rangers for Lundmark and a 1st. #Assetmanagement

 

[shadow1]

Should have traded David Jones to BOS/PIT when he was an upcoming UFA.

He was one of my least favorite Avs of all time. I'm sure he was a good guy off the ice, but drove me nuts as a player.

He started to break out in '09-'10, but tore his ACL and after that all of his speed was gone. He scored 27 goals the next season on only 153 shots and Greg The Accountant locked him up, and it was all down hill from there.

 

[The Kingslayer]

He was one of my least favorite Avs of all time. I'm sure he was a good guy off the ice, but drove me nuts as a player.

He started to break out in '09-'10, but tore his ACL and after that all of his speed was gone. He scored 27 goals the next season on only 153 shots and Greg The Accountant locked him up, and it was all down hill from there.

David Jones couldnt turn left.

 

[LieutenantDangle]

David Jones couldnt turn left.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

ROR was very arguably a better player, in terms of building a team long term. MacK hadn’t broken out, but he was better than Duchene in every manner.

I harbor no ill will against Duchene, honestly think far less of Staz for leaving than I do of Dutchy. But he was not the player he thought he was when in Colorado, and I think he now knows that. Still, his perspective coming out of the tough years - I get it, now. Wish him the best, as long as it isn’t at the cost of the Avs success.

and now, re-railing the topic - I like Graves a lot, but there isn’t a chance in hell I choose him over Z. What does Graves bring that cannot be replaced? IMO, not that much. The shutdown factor we have seen from Z - that’s the confluence of size and skill. Graves will NEVER have the size / intimidation / physicality of Z. And he doesn’t make up for it enough elsewhere for me to want to sacrifice him. Advanced stats be damned - yeah, I said it.

It's almost like we didn't go a decade with some of the piss-poorest dmen in North America. The Avs spent more than a decade trying like hell but failing to even get a competent d-corp. Now we have fans saying, these guys are replaceable.

 

[Pokecheque]

ROR was very arguably a better player, in terms of building a team long term. MacK hadn’t broken out, but he was better than Duchene in every manner.

I harbor no ill will against Duchene, honestly think far less of Staz for leaving than I do of Dutchy. But he was not the player he thought he was when in Colorado, and I think he now knows that. Still, his perspective coming out of the tough years - I get it, now. Wish him the best, as long as it isn’t at the cost of the Avs success.

and now, re-railing the topic - I like Graves a lot, but there isn’t a chance in hell I choose him over Z. What does Graves bring that cannot be replaced? IMO, not that much. The shutdown factor we have seen from Z - that’s the confluence of size and skill. Graves will NEVER have the size / intimidation / physicality of Z. And he doesn’t make up for it enough elsewhere for me to want to sacrifice him. Advanced stats be damned - yeah, I said it.

That's an odd thing to say since Graves' advanced stats are actually not very good.

I don't know what to tell you, he is by all accounts a perfectly fine third pairing guy who is a little above his head in a top-pairing role. He has obvious holes in his game but if you look at third-pairing defenders across the league, there's really not many teams who have anyone better. The defending champion Blues use Robert frickin' Bortuzzo FFS. I'm fine with him sticking around--I have also said that the Avs should possibly look into trading him if someone offers something decent. But if not, if he can be kept around for a couple years, I have no problem with that either, just so long as they start moving the third pairing defenders they have down onto the third pairing where they belong.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

That's an odd thing to say since Graves' advanced stats are actually not very good.

I don't know what to tell you, he is by all accounts a perfectly fine third pairing guy who is a little above his head in a top-pairing role. He has obvious holes in his game but if you look at third-pairing defenders across the league, there's really not many teams who have anyone better. The defending champion Blues use Robert frickin' Bortuzzo FFS. I'm fine with him sticking around--I have also said that the Avs should possibly look into trading him if someone offers something decent. But if not, if he can be kept around for a couple years, I have no problem with that either, just so long as they start moving the third pairing defenders they have down onto the third pairing where they belong.

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m my ideal world we have both Z and Graves. I was merely stating I would rather have Z.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

It's almost like we didn't go a decade with some of the piss-poorest dmen in North America. The Avs spent more than a decade trying like hell but failing to even get a competent d-corp. Now we have fans saying, these guys are replaceable.

Graves is quite replaceable. I’m sure if we wanted to put in the effort, we could put together a list of trades and free agent signings in which third pairing defensemen were acquired.... and therefore proving Graves replaceable. What all Avs fans like about this, including myself, is we only gave up Bust Bigras for him. Great move by Joe, and undoubtedly Graves would be difficult to replace for a similar value. I merely stated that he can be replaced... and that I prefer Z over him, because the intangibles Z brings, in my opinion, are more difficult to replace than Graves’. It’s a matter of opinion, and again - I prefer we keep both.

 

[Pokecheque]

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m my ideal world we have both Z and Graves. I was merely stating I would rather have Z.

Hard for me to say simply because Z remains such a weird frickin' player. Graves has obvious flaws, but he is definitely a better contributor offensively than Z, and Z's great defensive prowess simply isn't consistent enough. I just don't think the Avs are going to pay Z what he wants, and because of that, he's gone.

 

[Rumplesnipeskin]

Hard for me to say simply because Z remains such a weird frickin' player. Graves has obvious flaws, but he is definitely a better contributor offensively than Z, and Z's great defensive prowess simply isn't consistent enough. I just don't think the Avs are going to pay Z what he wants, and because of that, he's gone.

I’m very afraid that will happen, as well. Z can be amazing, and his agent let’s his cockiness pump up his personal valuation expectations. He can also be extremely frustrating, but D Men can take a bit longer to work out the final rough spots. We’ve seen Z step in and play like a top pairing D Man at times... and then we see the plays that make me want to slam my head against the wall repeatedly. And also why he isn’t worth what he thinks he is.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I’m very afraid that will happen, as well. Z can be amazing, and his agent let’s his cockiness pump up his personal valuation expectations. He can also be extremely frustrating, but D Men can take a bit longer to work out the final rough spots. We’ve seen Z step in and play like a top pairing D Man at times... and then we see the plays that make me want to slam my head against the wall repeatedly. And also why he isn’t worth what he thinks he is.

Oh, he is worth what he thinks he is...to the right GM. I mean, we all assumed Barrie was and is going to get PAID on his next contract. I think in the long run he'll be worth it. But obviously, he wasn't worth it for Sakic when he had other holes that needed filling. There's no question some other GM will happily pay Z what he wants when he hits UFA status. The question is if Sakic and Big Z have a relationship and the ability to find a deal that is satisfactory for both sides in Colorado. If that isn't the case, I expect him to be moved by the draft so we don't lose him for nothing. I know he's a RFA this summer but if a 3-4 year deal isn't in the works, I'd expect the trade to happen sooner so Joe can get more value on the return.

 

[henchman21]

The two biggest obstacles for Z coming back are Byram and Z's arbitration/long-term contract extension. Byram will be in the NHL next year and will be expected to play top 4 by 21-22. Z's contract in arbitration is over $4m and long-term he's going to push 4.25-4.5 (which he is entitled to).... that just seems too rich when he's destined to be on the bottom pairing the following season. Graves' arbitration case won't be strong as first year full time NHLers don't tend to do well, but ~2-3m is easier to swallow for a few seasons

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The two biggest obstacles for Z coming back are Byram and Z's arbitration/long-term contract extension. Byram will be in the NHL next year and will be expected to play top 4 by 21-22. Z's contract in arbitration is over $4m and long-term he's going to push 4.25-4.5 (which he is entitled to).... that just seems too rich when he's destined to be on the bottom pairing the following season. Graves' arbitration case won't be strong as first year full time NHLers don't tend to do well, but ~2-3m is easier to swallow for a few seasons

Yep. I'm going to be sad to see Z moved but the writing is fairly well on the wall by now. I mean, I'd keep him even at 4.25-4.5M if Johnson up and decided to retire this summer after we win the cup, but I don't see it happening.

 

[henchman21]

Yep. I'm going to be sad to see Z moved but the writing is fairly well on the wall by now. I mean, I'd keep him even at 4.25-4.5M if Johnson up and decided to retire this summer after we win the cup, but I don't see it happening.

In vacuum, I'd much, much rather keep Z than EJ long-term.... sadly we are stuck with EJ until we buy him out or that contract is over.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I'd rather keep Z over EJ as well...


Though in saying that, I really like the idea of using Z on draft day to recuperate some of our lost draft picks. Especially if we really do get aggressive at the deadline this year. I dont like the idea of potentially not having any picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft this summer. Trading Zadorov should get us at least one pick in the first 3 rounds and IMO he should be able to get 2(I think he could definitely return a 2nd + 3rd type of package at least, with a chance at getting us back into the tail end of the first round as well especially if he gets some deep playoff exposure).


I like our Defense a lot long term though. Girard/Byram/Graves on the Left side is some quality depth. Makar/Timmins on the Right looks great as well. I wish we could get out of the EJ deal a lot but it is what it is for now,


If the Avs do get to draft in the first round, without sacrificing the BPA I hope it works out that we get a RHD with that selection. It's the weakest point in the organizational depth charts right now IMO.

 

[Pokecheque]

Can't remember if I posted about it (it's been a long but good day) but anyone read the recent Clark article on Graves? He credits a pretty harsh sit-down with Greg Cronin while he was with the Eagles for putting him on the right track.

It was a minor trade two years ago, yet it led to Ryan...

 

[Flanagan]

Time for a quick analysis using everyone's favourite stat!

Only one player in the last decade has cracked +40 - William Karlsson in 2017-18. Graves is currently at +39.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Time for a quick analysis using everyone's favourite stat!

Only one player in the last decade has cracked +40 - William Karlsson in 2017-18. Graves is currently at +39.

He’s coming for Jeff Schultz.

 

[Balthazar]

Time for a quick analysis using everyone's favourite stat!

Only one player in the last decade has cracked +40 - William Karlsson in 2017-18. Graves is currently at +39.

Being the highest scoring team 5v5 in the league helps a lot.

Makes you wonder where the Avs would be with good special teams.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Being the highest scoring team 5v5 in the league helps a lot.

Makes you wonder where the Avs would be with good special teams.

This is the reason I'm not really on board with getting another top-6 Fwd especially for one of our big three prospects. This team is already elite 5v5. Take less penalties and fix the PK and this team is almost unbeatable. You probably don't even need the PP to get better although that would be great. Fix the PK by changing your system or getting another PK specialist (either a FWD or dman).

If we trade Byram we'll be right back to trying to find a guy just like him in a year or so. Those guys are extremely hard to find in trades and because we will be drafting low in the next 3-5 years (hopefully) we won't be able to draft one unless we are very lucky.

 

[The Abusement Park]

This is the reason I'm not really on board with getting another top-6 Fwd especially for one of our big three prospects. This team is already elite 5v5. Take less penalties and fix the PK and this team is almost unbeatable. You probably don't even need the PP to get better although that would be great. Fix the PK by changing your system or getting another PK specialist (either a FWD or dman).

If we trade Byram we'll be right back to trying to find a guy just like him in a year or so. Those guys are extremely hard to find in trades and because we will be drafting low in the next 3-5 years (hopefully) we won't be able to draft one unless we are very lucky.

This is also why I’m not worried about playoffs. 5v5 is the most important part of playoff hockey and we’re basically the best at it. Improve the special teams a little bit and we’re be very hard to beat.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Being the highest scoring team 5v5 in the league helps a lot.

Makes you wonder where the Avs would be with good special teams.

Yup this team is special 5v5. Best since Washington in like 2016.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Yup this team is special 5v5. Best since Washington in like 2016.

What is Mack's level of power play production compared to the other top 5 scorers in the league? Last I seen he was #4?