Coach Discussion: Coaching thread

[leer2006]

Scotty bowman wasn't getting this team Chevy assembled into the playoffs but maurice should be fired for not getting them in. No one in hockey picked them to make playoffs. Maybe if Chevy did his job and gave him a playoff team to coach he might have been fired already.

So are you giving PoMo a pass for how the team played the last half of last season? He by all standards had a what should have been a very good playoff team. But the team completely imploaded.

 

[Guerzy]

From TSN's Travis Yost - There are plenty of reasons for concern in Winnipeg

 

[Buffdog]

From TSN's Travis Yost - There are plenty of reasons for concern in Winnipeg

Sorta sums up the problem. AHL dmen can't move the puck out of the zone.

I also (maybe mistakingly) remember reading that the jets were doing pretty well denying zone entries a couple years back. It would stand to reason that our fourth-rate d corps would struggle at that as well, but I have no idea where to find that data.

You can hate pomo all you want but no team is gonna be any good with potato, sbisa, boo-loo, dahlstom, and niku playing significant minutes (let alone poolman in the top pairing- he's a decent bottom 4 option, but not a good choice for a top pairing shit down guy).

 

[Slimy Sculpin]

Dom Luszczyszyn at The Athletic has them (as of today) as a “Long Shot” (16%) at making the playoffs this season. At least they’re not in his “Not a Chance” category.

“Winnipeg Jets (16.0 percent)
All season the nerds have called for regression on this team, and it appears that time has come. The Jets are now on pace for 87 points, not far off from their preseason projection (though they look even worse than imagined), thanks to a recent 5-11-2 run. When the goalies aren’t stealing games that’s what happens to a team sporting one of the worst expected goals rates on record. With the lack of talent on the blue line and the overall porous 5-on-5 play, it’s very difficult to see the Jets overcoming this.”

 

[Howard Chuck]

From TSN's Travis Yost - There are plenty of reasons for concern in Winnipeg

We should have kept Heinola. He looked like our Enstrom already.

 

[YetAnotherGM]

Sorta sums up the problem. AHL dmen can't move the puck out of the zone.

I also (maybe mistakingly) remember reading that the jets were doing pretty well denying zone entries a couple years back. It would stand to reason that our fourth-rate d corps would struggle at that as well, but I have no idea where to find that data.

You can hate pomo all you want but no team is gonna be any good with potato, sbisa, boo-loo, dahlstom, and niku playing significant minutes (let alone poolman in the top pairing- he's a decent bottom 4 option, but not a good choice for a top pairing **** down guy).

Lol did you forget the team sucked since xmas of 2018 with a full complement of 'NHL caliber' defensemen. Sub .500 record.

 

[Duke749]

We should have kept Heinola. He looked like our Enstrom already.

We’re not competing this year anyways so why rush?

 

[tbcwpg]

Lol did you forget the team sucked since xmas of 2018 with a full complement of 'NHL caliber' defensemen. Sub .500 record.

Same problem, two different reasons. Last year there were lots of off-ice issues. The system wasn't great, don't get me wrong.

The biggest problem, besides what I posted a few pages back, is the team gives up possession so easily and no player has help in the d-zone to help move the puck out. They allow the team to come into the zone (not by design - we know from the start of the year that they were trying more than last year to hold their blue line), and the defencemen are, for the most part, not good enough to win possession.

 

[Buffdog]

Lol did you forget the team sucked since xmas of 2018 with a full complement of 'NHL caliber' defensemen. Sub .500 record.

I wouldn't suppose missing one of (and for much of the time both) buff and jomo in the second half of last season had anyghing to do with that? (Lol)

 

[surixon]

I wouldn't suppose missing one of (and for much of the time both) buff and jomo in the second half of last season had anyghing to do with that? (Lol)

Every team deals with Injuries. I find using them as a continued excuse for the coach is incredibly flimsy.

A good many teams are hit hard with injuries but manage just fine. No excuse for what happened to us last year imo.

 

[Howard Chuck]

We’re not competing this year anyways so why rush?

Because he didn't look out of place and probably had the best outlet pass of all our D. He may have helped us this year.

Maybe not, maybe so.

 

[surixon]

Because he didn't look out of place and probably had the best outlet pass of all our D. He may have helped us this year.

Maybe not, maybe so.

Given how poorly our coach has us playing I'm happy he isn't developing here. No sense blowing a year of his ELC in this mess.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Given how poorly our coach has us playing I'm happy he isn't developing here. No sense blowing a year of his ELC in this mess.

In hindsight I agree. At the time, I think it would have been good to have him.

 

[Buffdog]

Every team deals with Injuries. I find using them as a continued excuse for the coach is incredibly flimsy.

A good many teams are hit hard with injuries but manage just fine. No excuse for what happened to us last year imo.

Not all injuries are the same. Losing 2 of your top 3 dmen for an extended period is going to affect things differently than losing a bottom pairing guy and a 3rd line winger.

Can you name a team that had 2/3 of their top d go down and DIDN'T suffer adversely?

 

[surixon]

Not all injuries are the same. Losing 2 of your top 3 dmen for an extended period is going to affect things differently than losing a bottom pairing guy and a 3rd line winger.

Can you name a team that had 2/3 of their top d go down and DIDN'T suffer adversely?

Pittsburgh won the cup in 16/17 missing Letang for the entire playoffs, Daley also missed a significant amount of time that playoffs as well.

Jets in 14/15 were able to play real good hockey despite missing their top 3 dme (Trouba, Toby and Buff) for a significant amount of time.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples out there. In the end those injuries might explain a small dip in performance, they don't explain the entire wheels falling off.

 

[DashingDane]

Edit: thought I was replying to the Buffdog quote from above..

Yes, 2017/2018 season Jets

Games missed:
Scheifele - 12 games
Trouba - 27 games
Buff - 11 games
Enstrom - 39 games
Kuli - 20 games
Chiapet - 25 games
Frenchie - 12 games
Lowry - 37 games
Tanev - 21 games

 

[DashingDane]

Cup winners since 05 lockout (Year coaching that team)
CAR Laviolette (Y2)
ANH Carlyle (Y2)
DET Babcock (Y3)
PIT Bylsma (In-Season hire)
CHI Quennville (Y2, Y5, Y7)
BOS Julien (Y4)
LAK Sutter (In-Season, Y3)
PIT Sullivan (In-Season, Y2)
WSH Trotz (Y4)
STL Berube (in-season)

somehow Maurice about to finish 7 years with likely moving on from the first round once during his tenure

Been look at this stat for some weeks as well. I still haven't found a coach that turned things around after 4 seasons with a team and won a championship. And that's me looking across all sports. Historically great coaches take their teams to a championship within 3 seasons.

 

[kcin94]

Been look at this stat for some weeks as well. I still haven't found a coach that turned things around after 4 seasons with a team and won a championship. And that's me looking across all sports. Historically great coaches take their teams to a championship within 3 seasons.

Mike O'Shea?

 

[DashingDane]

Mike O'Shea?

Well there you go I clearly did not look into Canadian football

 

[Buffdog]

Pittsburgh won the cup in 16/17 missing Letang for the entire playoffs, Daley also missed a significant amount of time that playoffs as well.

Jets in 14/15 were able to play real good hockey despite missing their top 3 dme (Trouba, Toby and Buff) for a significant amount of time.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples out there. In the end those injuries might explain a small dip in performance, they don't explain the entire wheels falling off.

Of course there are examples, and tha ksndor pointing them out.

I'd argue that a team with Crosby and Malkin (and an emerging Matt Murray playing put of his mind) had a better chance of playing through injuries than most teams. As for the jets 2 years ago, I think we'd be a lot better up to this point if we had the guys listed in the line up on d minusnthe games they missed (we'd have had 10+ games of trouba and 20+ games of buff)

I'd also like to reiterate that I'm not absolving pomo altogether, just pointing out some extenuating circumstances that may provide some insight into why were as bad as we are.

There's more the narrative than "we suck because of our coach"

 

[castle]

Of course there are examples, and tha ksndor pointing them out.

I'd argue that a team with Crosby and Malkin (and an emerging Matt Murray playing put of his mind) had a better chance of playing through injuries than most teams. As for the jets 2 years ago, I think we'd be a lot better up to this point if we had the guys listed in the line up on d minusnthe games they missed (we'd have had 10+ games of trouba and 20+ games of buff)

I'd also like to reiterate that I'm not absolving pomo altogether, just pointing out some extenuating circumstances that may provide some insight into why were as bad as we are.

There's more the narrative than "we suck because of our coach"

Yes, a more accurate narrative might be, the collection of players kinda probably sucks, and the coach definitely does right now

 

[LowLefty]

Pittsburgh won the cup in 16/17 missing Letang for the entire playoffs, Daley also missed a significant amount of time that playoffs as well.

Jets in 14/15 were able to play real good hockey despite missing their top 3 dme (Trouba, Toby and Buff) for a significant amount of time.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples out there. In the end those injuries might explain a small dip in performance, they don't explain the entire wheels falling off.

How exactly do you measure that and at what point, if ever, do injuries drive a team to more than a "small dip".
I get the narrative but I struggle with how we quantify the impact.

IMO, some teams can play through injuries at any given time - and it usually depends on more things than just who is out. If the team was able to play real good hockey in 14/15 with the noted players out of the lineup, what would you chalk that up to? Has Mo become less of a coach or have other factors played a role?

Injuries have a huge impact on team performance - not saying bad coaching won't do the same but it's obvious which way the wind in blowing in some discussions. When the perfect storm forms, ie; injuries, loss of players through FA or trades, a D core left in shambles, goaltending that's hit and miss, an elite O that don't like D . . . .

Mo may be on his way out - who knows. But laying most of the issues at his feet is sometimes too easy.

 

[ffh]

So are you giving PoMo a pass for how the team played the last half of last season? He by all standards had a what should have been a very good playoff team. But the team completely imploaded.

Teams falter for many reasons and if you want to blame maurice somewhat for last year I guess that's fair but he got them 99 points and in the playoffs and if hayes scores a gimme we go up 2-0 and more then likely win game 5. But this team this year doesn't have the talent to make the playoffs. And that's on Chevy.

 

[surixon]

Of course there are examples, and tha ksndor pointing them out.

I'd argue that a team with Crosby and Malkin (and an emerging Matt Murray playing put of his mind) had a better chance of playing through injuries than most teams. As for the jets 2 years ago, I think we'd be a lot better up to this point if we had the guys listed in the line up on d minusnthe games they missed (we'd have had 10+ games of trouba and 20+ games of buff)

I'd also like to reiterate that I'm not absolving pomo altogether, just pointing out some extenuating circumstances that may provide some insight into why were as bad as we are.

There's more the narrative than "we suck because of our coach"

Well I agree that the roster needs some upgrades and some players need to execute better. I just pointed out instances of teams overcoming injury adversity as you asked for.

My main issue with the last year and a bit is that this team has looked largely disjointed and awful. Now the defensive situation was unfortunate and put Maurice in a tough spot (I wont argue that). My issue is that he elected to implement a full blown conservative system that puts major constraints on our offensive ability. It is reflected in underlying numbers that are in the toilet. I feel that that this is an issue for a number of reasons:

1. Roster Assessment: I think most understand that there are roster upgrades that need to made, but outside of the obvious top 4 on d upgrades its not so clear where those moves need to be made. Given how bad the team as a whole is performing I have a hard time understanding just where this team actually is in its arc. I have a hard time seeing how a team with our offensive talent and collection of support pieces is by far the worst team in the league from an XGF%. The question for me is where exactly are we, are we average, below average etc... If we aren't as bad as our metrics indicate then we might not need as many moves to fix the roster.
2. Player assessment and trade value: Given how discombobulated most of our players look right now I find it hard to asses who is a mainstay and who should be moved out. Also given that our system stifles offensive chances how much is that impact some of the point totals of our secondary offensive guys. I'm talking a Roslovic who has obvious talent but his counting numbers are a bit down. Same with Ves on the Moose, he is third on the team in scoring but only has 24 points. Both are two of the better trade chips to improve the roster that we have but neither has all that impressive point totals. Given our system I think there is a strong possibility that both of their numbers are a bit depressed. Offensive production generally drives trade value and if Moe's system is depressing these numbers it makes it harder for Chevy to go out and trade for the pieces he needs to fix the roster.

I don't blame Maurice for everything but I think his system is the wrong fit and it has an impact on a number of areas in the org. I would like a new coach with a new system to end the year to see if we can get a better idea of where we are as a team and to see if Ves and Ros are better producers then they have shown.

How exactly do you measure that and at what point, if ever, do injuries drive a team to more than a "small dip".
I get the narrative but I struggle with how we quantify the impact.

IMO, some teams can play through injuries at any given time - and it usually depends on more things than just who is out. If the team was able to play real good hockey in 14/15 with the noted players out of the lineup, what would you chalk that up to? Has Mo become less of a coach or have other factors played a role?

Injuries have a huge impact on team performance - not saying bad coaching won't do the same but it's obvious which way the wind in blowing in some discussions. When the perfect storm forms, ie; injuries, loss of players through FA or trades, a D core left in shambles, goaltending that's hit and miss, an elite O that don't like D . . . .

Mo may be on his way out - who knows. But laying most of the issues at his feet is sometimes too easy.

Its hard to know what exactly the impact is but I find it is used as too much of an excuse. At the end of the day each team has to deal with their fair share of them as well as cap ramifications.

I blame a number of factors for our season but changing the coach is the easiest move and it might give the org some different information that they can use when assessing what needs to be done to the roster this summer.

 

[Whodey204]

Paul Maurice. The perfect coach for Winnipeg fans, where mediocrity is completely acceptable.

How about this for reasons to move on: he's had 7 years and we've been past the first round of the playoffs once. We have talented goal scorers, yet he focuses on a conservative game style where dump and chase, grind it out hockey from the dead puck era is somehow the ultimate goal. Zone time is king, not scoring chances in Paul's book.

How about his penchant for playing guys like Gabriel Borque and Matt Hendricks over younger players with more potential like Harkins and Roslovic. How about the fact that our PK has completely stunk ever since he got here, or his stubborn refusal to try ANYTHING new such as splitting Scheifele and Wheeler until injuries forced his hand. Switching Connor and Ehlers is basically his only move.

How about a complete failure to hold certain players accountable - namely Scheifele and Wheeler, while seemingly picking on others (Ehlers, Roslovic). Could this same approach be what cause the ruffled feathers of last season? If I was one of those young players, I would have been pissed too. Matt Hendricks could barely skate and contributed nothing, yet Roslovic was in the press box.

Come to think about it, we've basically only been consistently winning when Helly has been putting up Vezina type results both early this season and 2017/2018.

I think those are plenty of reasons. If Maurice stays, mediocrity is the best case scenario. Hes been a career mediocre coach and it's not going to change now.

Sometimes it's just time for a new voice, and frankly I'm just tired of boring hockey with a bunch of waiver wire scrubs. Would rather struggle with a few young guys from the Moose like Harkins, niku, Kovacevic and so on over the plugs we're playing now.