Coaches who did not deserve to be fired

[MXD]

The problem is, and was, is that if his name was Claude Smith it wouldn't matter how good he was. This is what it is all about, it is what this entire discussion has been about. The Habs use a very narrow pool of coaches for political reasons and it hurts them in the long run. Julien is about to join Therrien and get fired from the Habs for the 2nd time this decade.



The issue was he was basically fired in a trial by media before he even got the chance. If he had a .750 winning percentage he still doesn't make the team if he doesn't speak good enough french.

.

Prove your claims Phil, and stop your grandstanding philosophico-bullshit.

You're also saying that a French-speaking coach cannot possibly be the best coach available, and you deserve to be called out for it.

 

[The Roy Of Ottawa]

Terry Murray with the Los Angeles Kings. One win shy of 500 in 2011-2012!

 

[ResilientBeast]

Terry Murray with the Los Angeles Kings. One win shy of 500 in 2011-2012!

Well they fired him and then won the cup that year....

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Prove your claims Phil, and stop your grandstanding philosophico-bullshit.

You're also saying that a French-speaking coach cannot possibly be the best coach available, and you deserve to be called out for it.

I think you're looking for a reason to be offended. All Phil is saying is that Montreal is probably limiting their coaching sample size, to their own detriment. This is a statistics argument, not a discrimination argument. Good lord.

 

[MXD]

I think you're looking for a reason to be offended. All Phil is saying is that Montreal is probably limiting their coaching sample size, to their own detriment. This is a statistics argument, not a discrimination argument. Good lord.

This is a bad argument, because it would necessarily mean that the best head coach can never even speak French, which is frankly stupid. Like, LEARNING French would, in and of itself, make a coach a worse candidate. This sounds moronic, right? It absolutely does, but that directly flows from what Big Phil said. That's his logical flaws and fallacies, not mines. I'm offended at two things : nonsense and hypocrisy, things Big Phil shown A LOT of it in this thread.
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I mean, statistically, it makes no sense that none of the five best goaltenders (of all-time) is from Ontario. But here it is (and I don't think it's disputable : let's just say that it's a very hard case to make). It doesn't mean that, that any point in time, the best netminder in the world couldn't be from Ontario (Benedict, Durnan, Esposito, Dryden all have a very obvious case).
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I do think the recycling of coaches is an issue though, but it's a league-wide one; the idea that a failing coach should get a second chances because big bad french media meanies is... I dunno, reeks of hypocrisy?

 

[McGuillicuddy]

This is a bad argument, because it would necessarily mean that the best head coach can never even speak French, which is frankly stupid. Like, LEARNING French would, in and of itself, make a coach a worse candidate. This sounds moronic, right? It absolutely does, but that directly flows from what Big Phil said. That's his logical flaws and fallacies, not mines. I'm offended at two things : nonsense and hypocrisy, things Big Phil shown A LOT of it in this thread.
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I mean, statistically, it makes no sense that none of the five best goaltenders (of all-time) is from Ontario. But here it is (and I don't think it's disputable : let's just say that it's a very hard case to make). It doesn't mean that, that any point, the best netminder in the world wasn't from Ontario (Benedict, Durnan, Esposito, Dryden all have a very obvious case).

I am still confused. Here is Phil's summarizing comment:

The Habs use a very narrow pool of coaches for political reasons and it hurts them in the long run.

Your interpretation of this is (and I am paraphrasing):

"The best coach can't possibly be French-speaking so Montreal should not hire francophones."

And my interpretation is more like:

"The best coach may not be French-speaking so Montreal should not limit themselves to francophones."

I still feel like you are taking offense where it is unwarranted. Can you produce a quote from Phil that supports your claim below?

You're also saying that a French-speaking coach cannot possibly be the best coach available

I am going to reread the thread but I didn't see it the first time through.

 

[MXD]

I am still confused. Here is Phil's summarizing comment:


Your interpretation of this is (and I am paraphrasing):

"The best coach can't possibly be French-speaking so Montreal should not hire francophones."

And my interpretation is more like:

"The best coach may not be French-speaking so Montreal should not limit themselves to francophones."

Well, you did say it was about statistics, so I went with your characterization.

And again : Phil would have to prove his claim first. It's probably very easy to prove it for when Julien was hired, but other than that...

 

[Big Phil]

I think you're looking for a reason to be offended. All Phil is saying is that Montreal is probably limiting their coaching sample size, to their own detriment. This is a statistics argument, not a discrimination argument. Good lord.

Yeah, woah man, is this ever getting harder and harder to explain simpler and simpler. I think he is seeing and hearing what he wants to hear. I just assumed everyone would see it the way you are seeing it as well. Montreal narrows their sample size by their own choice. I guess I assumed on the HOH board everyone else would see it that way too.

Prove your claims Phil, and stop your grandstanding philosophico-bullshit.

You're also saying that a French-speaking coach cannot possibly be the best coach available, and you deserve to be called out for it.

Man, this stuff is really going over your head and I am trying to tolerate you here and respond back accordingly but you are putting words in my mouth. I'll say what I have said from the beginning. It isn't hard to grasp.

Cunneyworth was not given a fair shake. It doesn't matter what his record was, because he was basically being shoved out the door in the first couple of games based on the language issue. Ignore everything about his record, because this isn't the issue. The issue is that he had a target on his back even before anyone knew what his record was. Maybe he is not fit to be a head coach in the NHL, but even in Game 1 it didn't matter, he was going to be out regardless. Now THAT is what I thought was unfair and I hope in Post #81 this is the last time I need to explain it.

A French coach possibly can be the best one available. Because quite frankly that is what you do, take the best one available to coach your team. If he was born in Quebec, then so be it, nothing wrong with that. But let's put it this way, Montreal is likely to fire Julien for the 2nd time now. In the last 15 years or so they have fired two different coaches twice once they let go of Julien. Obviously something is not working. Now might be a good time to nab a guy like Gerard Gallant who has a pretty good track record. Even Mike Babcock so long as you have players who won't complain about a coach frowning at them. Both are available. However...................neither will get hired by Montreal unless the coaches can speak French which is not exactly the biggest pool of coaches to pick from. You are picking from, what, 10% perhaps? Maybe 15% of the ones who can or have learned enough to satisfy the media. That's not a lot and it limits you. If this is what you do with your team then fine, if you figure the media ought to run the show then so be it, but for me personally I would want a coach who helps you win first and foremost. That's just me.

 

[MXD]

I still feel like you are taking offense where it is unwarranted. Can you produce a quote from Phil that supports your claim below?

I am going to reread the thread but I didn't see it the first time through.

Again : Phil raised two names as the best available coaches.

Mike Babcock and Gerard Gallant.

Why were they fired in the first place then? Also, and more importantly, why are the best coaches are necessarily recycled ones?

 

[Big Phil]

Again : Phil raised two names as the best available coaches.

Mike Babcock and Gerard Gallant.

Why were they fired in the first place then? Also, and more importantly, why are the best coaches are necessarily recycled ones?

[Mod] these are just examples. I am not saying the Habs ought to fire Julien tomorrow and hire them. I am saying that as an organization they won't do this and none of it has anything to do with winning hockey games, which is only hurting them as they have had a revolving door of coaches over the years.

I am going to try to simplify it a little more. The Rangers, they only hire someone with a thick New York who can work the New York media. Does that or does that not leave them at a disadvantage and ignoring a large pool of potentially good coaches?

BTW, I have no idea why Gerard Gallant was fired because it certainly doesn't look like it was a hockey reason.

 

[K Fleur]

Babcock blows. I feel for the fanbase of whatever team hires him next.

 

[Moose Head]

The moral of the story is, the issue with the habs since 1979, outside of a few notable cases, has not been coaching.

 

[Hasbro]

Marc Crawford was actually offered a contract extension, but left the Avalanche anyway. The team really collapsed at the end of 1997-98 (not just the Edmonton series). Bob Hartley would be a better example of a premature firing from that era’s Avalanche.

Crow pretty much thought it wasa a bad faith offer as Pierre Lacroix said he wanted to "let the dust settle", Crawford gave a heated press conference which was essentially a "you can't fire me I quit!" scenario. When Vancouver hired him Lacroix was able to get a 2nd round pick as compensation since technically Crow resigned.

Subsequent events illustrated what an erratic personality Crawford has anyway.

 

[c9777666]

Mike Keenan 1988- The only year he didn't lead PHI to a first place finish. 1 year after making it to game 7 of the Cup Finals, he got canned

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

The Avalanche firing Joel Quenneville always struck me as bizarre. Did they really think that 2008 roster, which lost in the 2nd round to eventual champion Detroit, had underachieved? And if I'm remembering right, a flu bug crippled the Avs in that series to boot (though you have to think the Red Wings would still have won anyway). There had to be some bad blood behind the scenes there or something.

That was a strange Colorado roster. A mix of wide eyed inexperience and the old broken down championship core. The goalies were a mess with Theodore letting everything from the 3rd row in. Flu bug or not I’ve never seen a team so lost in the playoffs. 2002 felt like a lifetime ago watching it.

 

[The Wizard of Oz]

Yeah I guess a non-renewal isn't quite the same as a firing, but still surprising. My impression of the Avalanche those years was that two playoff series wins was as good as you could reasonably hope for with that roster. Quenneville had a pretty good reputation around the league as well. I will say though, nobody could have imagined he'd go on to put together a probable HOF career over the next decade. Quite the turn of fortune.

I used to look forward to the Wings playing Q led teams. There was a stat for a while there where the Wings were undefeated against him. Q got the last laugh by turning our biggest rival into a dynasty.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I used to look forward to the Wings playing Q led teams. There was a stat for a while there where the Wings were undefeated against him. Q got the last laugh by turning our biggest rival into a dynasty.

Ironic perhaps that it was Detroit that had the Blackhawks on the brink of what would likely have been a regime change in 2013. If Chicago doesn't rally from a 3-1 series deficit, I doubt Quenneville would have survived, and Patrick Kane probably gets traded. Hard to believe in light of what subsequently occurred.

 

[c9777666]

That was a strange Colorado roster. A mix of wide eyed inexperience and the old broken down championship core. The goalies were a mess with Theodore letting everything from the 3rd row in. Flu bug or not I’ve never seen a team so lost in the playoffs. 2002 felt like a lifetime ago watching it.

It was basically an old team save for Paul Stastny and Marek Svatos. I thought given that and the goalie carousel (Seriously, they would have been better off just keeping Aebischer), Quenneville overachieved.

Plus, he was in a tough Northwest Division

 

[c9777666]

Ironic perhaps that it was Detroit that had the Blackhawks on the brink of what would likely have been a regime change in 2013. If Chicago doesn't rally from a 3-1 series deficit, I doubt Quenneville would have survived, and Patrick Kane probably gets traded. Hard to believe in light of what subsequently occurred.

Not only that, but maybe DET uses their savvy if they get past CHI to get past the Kings (DET was the only team of that era with Cup experience comparable to LAK/CHI) and.... maybe we get a DET/BOS SCF?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Again : Phil raised two names as the best available coaches.

Mike Babcock and Gerard Gallant.

Why were they fired in the first place then? Also, and more importantly, why are the best coaches are necessarily recycled ones?

Why was Gallant fired... Good question?

Ironic perhaps that it was Detroit that had the Blackhawks on the brink of what would likely have been a regime change in 2013. If Chicago doesn't rally from a 3-1 series deficit, I doubt Quenneville would have survived, and Patrick Kane probably gets traded. Hard to believe in light of what subsequently occurred.

I do find it insane how often Quennville was quoted as being on the chopping block, with how far he managed to stretch so little at times.

Is it not general consensus at this point that he should be considered the undisputed best coach in the post-lockout NHL?

 

[MXD]

Why was Gallant fired... Good question?



I do find it insane how often Quennville was quoted as being on the chopping block, with how far he managed to stretch so little at times.

Is it not general consensus at this point that he should be considered the undisputed best coach in the post-lockout NHL?

It's between him and Trotz