Coaches who did not deserve to be fired

[FerrisRox]

Randy Cunneyworth 2012 - If you can't speak much French in Montreal then that will be a problem from the get go, I get that, but why even hire him in the first place? Perhaps the Habs should broaden their pool of talent to choose from. They've fired Michel Therrien twice and are almost certainly going to fire Claude Julien for a second time as well. Did Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake and Dick Irvin know a lot of french? Because if they didn't do you really take back those Cups?

Dick Irvin didn't speak french but Bowman and Blake did.

 

[Big Phil]

Dick Irvin didn't speak french but Bowman and Blake did.

Irvin did not too shabby, right? Maybe the Habs need to broaden their horizons a bit. You can always learn a bit of french while you are in Montreal. But hire a capable coach first. Of the long line of excellent coaches in Habs history when was the last time they had a great coach?

 

[Moose Head]

Define great coach? After Bowman, guys like Lemaire, Burns, Demers, Julien, Martin and Vigneault have all had significant success as NHL coaches.

 

[MXD]

Irvin did not too shabby, right? Maybe the Habs need to broaden their horizons a bit. You can always learn a bit of french while you are in Montreal. But hire a capable coach first. Of the long line of excellent coaches in Habs history when was the last time they had a great coach?

... But the guy you're suggesting they shouldn't have fired is the only one who had no success whatsoever as a coach. The worst coach hired by the Habs since Bowman are Cunneyworth, Berry and Perron. Perron won a Stanley Cup (and was promptly fired the year later), and as their names would attest, the hiring pool was broader than what it's alleged to be at the moment.

Face it Phil. You didn't want to start a discussion on coaches. You wanted to bring out political points under the cloud of a discussion on coaches that shouldn't have been fired (if the point about the utterly replaceable Peters didn't make it clear enough). Also, if you REALLY bothered about the equality of chances and teams that should broaden their hiring pool, you should probably look at the Toronto Maple Leafs instead, since their last great one is from a demographic they staunchly refuse to give a chance to lately.

 

[MXD]

Define great coach? After Bowman, guys like Lemaire, Burns, Demers, Julien, Martin and Vigneault have all had significant success as NHL coaches.

Hell, even Therrien is nowhere near as awful as he's made out to be.

 

[Hasbro]

The Avalanche firing Joel Quenneville always struck me as bizarre. Did they really think that 2008 roster, which lost in the 2nd round to eventual champion Detroit, had underachieved? And if I'm remembering right, a flu bug crippled the Avs in that series to boot (though you have to think the Red Wings would still have won anyway). There had to be some bad blood behind the scenes there or something.

There were other issues. The team had weird habit of going into losing streaks after a few days off and then fighting back into playoff position. They went on losing streaks into the deadline leaving a question on what to do. He wouldn’t rotate goalies, you’d regularly see his favorite at the moment starting both nights of a b2b. Even with the roster issues his line up choices were perplexing in particular favoritism to Brad May, Tyler Arnason and Patrice Bisebois.

 

[Big Phil]

Define great coach? After Bowman, guys like Lemaire, Burns, Demers, Julien, Martin and Vigneault have all had significant success as NHL coaches.

With Montreal though? Only Demers. Burns, sort of.

... But the guy you're suggesting they shouldn't have fired is the only one who had no success whatsoever as a coach. The worst coach hired by the Habs since Bowman are Cunneyworth, Berry and Perron. Perron won a Stanley Cup (and was promptly fired the year later), and as their names would attest, the hiring pool was broader than what it's alleged to be at the moment.

Face it Phil. You didn't want to start a discussion on coaches. You wanted to bring out political points under the cloud of a discussion on coaches that shouldn't have been fired (if the point about the utterly replaceable Peters didn't make it clear enough). Also, if you REALLY bothered about the equality of chances and teams that should broaden their hiring pool, you should probably look at the Toronto Maple Leafs instead, since their last great one is from a demographic they staunchly refuse to give a chance to lately.

Many coaches have been fired for non-hockey reasons, I just examine the ones I don't feel deserved it, you saw the original post, agree or disagree. I don't think Cunneyworth even got a fair shake and there was media pressure to fire him regardless. I don't think in that small window of 50 games it would have mattered if he went 40-10. It was inevitable he was going to get canned and I don't even think he had a big enough sample size to see if he could actually be a decent coach. He was gone regardless, and I don't think it was fair on him, that was an impossible situation. Let's face it, from a neutral point that Peters canning was just kangaroo court material. That was just plain wrong how the Flames handled it, it is a slippery slope that way.

What is the demographic you are talking about with the Leafs? Their "last great one" that they refuse to hire from that demographic now? I know it may not be the one you are thinking, but I am thinking Pat Quinn and..................coaches of Irish descent? You have to give a little more info than that.

 

[Fixxer]

How about poor Barry Melrose lasting just 16 games with the Tampa Bay Lightning in 2008??

Lightning fire Melrose as coach after 16 games

Isn't he the guy who didn't believe in Stamkos... and Stamkos bloomed after he left.

 

[Fixxer]

Randy Cunneyworth 2012 - If you can't speak much French in Montreal then that will be a problem from the get go, I get that, but why even hire him in the first place? Perhaps the Habs should broaden their pool of talent to choose from. They've fired Michel Therrien twice and are almost certainly going to fire Claude Julien for a second time as well. Did Scotty Bowman, Toe Blake and Dick Irvin know a lot of french? Because if they didn't do you really take back those Cups?

Actually, Cunneyworth was assistant coach and the assistant GM was Pierre Gauthier. The 2 guys kind of got their jobs (by default). Gainey leaving got Gauthier promoted as GM. Cunneyworth was promoted to interim head coach ( I believe Jacques Martin was the coach before). I actually liked Cunneyworth. He wasn't throwing anyone under the bus and was a player's coach.
The francophone media was nuts. The lack of victory didn't help. Him being a former Whaler and Senator got some fans wanting him out as he was considered a rival. Anyway, I liked him but the timing was obviously wrong.

 

[Big Phil]

Actually, Cunneyworth was assistant coach and the assistant GM was Pierre Gauthier. The 2 guys kind of got their jobs (by default). Gainey leaving got Gauthier promoted as GM. Cunneyworth was promoted to interim head coach ( I believe Jacques Martin was the coach before). I actually liked Cunneyworth. He wasn't throwing anyone under the bus and was a player's coach.
The francophone media was nuts. The lack of victory didn't help. Him being a former Whaler and Senator got some fans wanting him out as he was considered a rival. Anyway, I liked him but the timing was obviously wrong.

You can learn a bit of french. I don't remember a ton from school, but I remember enough to at least be able to follow a hockey game in French to know what they are saying. Give me a summer to brush up on it a bit and I could probably speak it well enough to appease the french media. I don't even believe they gave Cunneyworth that opportunity. Even as a Leaf fan I knew the guy was a dead man walking all year.

Isn't he the guy who didn't believe in Stamkos... and Stamkos bloomed after he left.

Yeah. I said it a bit upthread but he felt Stamkos should have still been in the minors in his rookie season. Stamkos was at a point per game for the final 20 games of his career and then won the Rocket the year after. Melrose was wrong of course, but at the time Stamkos was struggling badly. I get it, but don't throw the kid under the bus, he had not even 20 NHL games under his belt.

 

[MXD]

With Montreal though? Only Demers. Burns, sort of.
Many coaches have been fired for non-hockey reasons, I just examine the ones I don't feel deserved it, you saw the original post, agree or disagree. I don't think Cunneyworth even got a fair shake and there was media pressure to fire him regardless. I don't think in that small window of 50 games it would have mattered if he went 40-10. It was inevitable he was going to get canned and I don't even think he had a big enough sample size to see if he could actually be a decent coach. He was gone regardless, and I don't think it was fair on him, that was an impossible situation. Let's face it, from a neutral point that Peters canning was just kangaroo court material. That was just plain wrong how the Flames handled it, it is a slippery slope that way.

The underline is hypotheticals that you cannot prove or disprove, and one would think that, if Cunneyworth had really shown something as a coach, he would've been offered a coaching role somewhere. He wasn't, and Cunneyworth came from hockey, so it's a good indication as to how he was perceived as a coach.

You're making excuses for Randy Cunneyworth while refusing to acknowledge Julien, Martin and Vigneault as a good coaches?

There's a word for that. And that word is bullshit. The whole point of your thread, or, at the very least, the last three names you mentionned, is to raise political points, and it should've been dealt as such from the start.

Actually, Cunneyworth was assistant coach and the assistant GM was Pierre Gauthier. The 2 guys kind of got their jobs (by default). Gainey leaving got Gauthier promoted as GM. Cunneyworth was promoted to interim head coach ( I believe Jacques Martin was the coach before). I actually liked Cunneyworth. He wasn't throwing anyone under the bus and was a player's coach.
The francophone media was nuts. The lack of victory didn't help. Him being a former Whaler and Senator got some fans wanting him out as he was considered a rival. Anyway, I liked him but the timing was obviously wrong.

Results are all that matters, and Cunneyworth's results didn't warrant making him an full-time coach.
The media may have been moronic -- but that, in and of itself, didn't entitle Cunneyworth to a second chance after going .400, especially in a world where many don't even get a single chance. It's the NHL, not a recreative league.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm quite certain Kirk Muller wouldn't have raised such a backlash (Muller was with the team the year before).

___________

As for Peters... Well, he put his team into disrepute, and they cut ties with him. Totally interchangeable coach who got lucky to the year before.

 

[Big Phil]

The underline is hypotheticals that you cannot prove or disprove, and one would think that, if Cunneyworth had really shown something as a coach, he would've been offered a coaching role somewhere. He wasn't, and Cunneyworth came from hockey, so it's a good indication as to how he was perceived as a coach.

You're making excuses for Randy Cunneyworth while refusing to acknowledge Julien, Martin and Vigneault as a good coaches?

There's a word for that. And that word is bullshit. The whole point of your thread, or, at the very least, the last three names you mentionned, is to raise political points, and it should've been dealt as such from the start.

I think it is just you on this thread politicizing everything I am afraid to say. I had lots of coaches named in the original thread that I thought weren't treated fairly, that's just off the top of my head. Like it or not there are non-hockey reasons why a coach gets fired. I think this is above main board level and we can discuss it should it arise as adults (I think?), usually we can on these boards. Al MacNeil was a good name brought up that I didn't mention and it is quite likely there were non-hockey reasons why he was canned.

I am not a Martin fan though. Too many years in Ottawa of underacheiving, you can't blame Patrick Lalime for all of the problems. The Habs canned him pretty quickly too, so I don't know, was he a great coach? I never thought so. Julien did well outside of Montreal but they are likely to fire him for the 2nd time in their career. Vigneault is the best of that bunch, good coach.

I think you are taking this thing the wrong way, no one is saying there aren't good French coaches, my issue is that there are MORE than just good French coaches and as a franchise you rob yourself of a much bigger pool of coaches if that is all you focus on. The Habs have had a coaching carousel for the last three decades or so with mediocre - at best - results. I am just pointing out that Cunneyworth was out the door before he even started. There was pressure to get rid of him before he even had a chance. Perhaps he wasn't the best coach either way but I didn't think he was going to get a fair shake regardless because it wasn't exactly a secret why he was let go.

 

[Big Phil]

The media may have been moronic -- but that, in and of itself, didn't entitle Cunneyworth to a second chance after going .400, especially in a world where many don't even get a single chance. It's the NHL, not a recreative league.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm quite certain Kirk Muller wouldn't have raised such a backlash (Muller was with the team the year before).

No, but it was a major influence.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Melrose maybe should have never been an NHL coach...

 

[MXD]

Melrose maybe should have never been an NHL coach...

... That strikes me as a definite possibility.
Still achieved significantly more than Cunneyworth.

 

[HisIceness]

It still baffles me why the Panthers fired Gallant and then had the PNC Arena staff call a taxi to take him to the airport.

 

[Big Phil]

It still baffles me why the Panthers fired Gallant and then had the PNC Arena staff call a taxi to take him to the airport.

Sounds a little cold right? I know that Harold Ballard in Toronto used to just peel off the nameplate on their parking spot (not coaches necessarily but part of the team).

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Also, if you REALLY bothered about the equality of chances and teams that should broaden their hiring pool, you should probably look at the Toronto Maple Leafs instead, since their last great one is from a demographic they staunchly refuse to give a chance to lately.

Im not tracking with you here, what demographic, what coach is their last great one?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

I am not a Martin fan though. Too many years in Ottawa of underacheiving, you can't blame Patrick Lalime for all of the problems. The Habs canned him pretty quickly too, so I don't know, was he a great coach? I never thought so. Julien did well outside of Montreal but they are likely to fire him for the 2nd time in their career. Vigneault is the best of that bunch, good coach.

I followed the Martin habs closely, and my impressions of him were almost always positive. Intense focus on defence at the expense of offence, but effective in how he did it. IIRC those teams looked very vanilla and old school in their approach to the offensive zone, but got more than enough offence to stay afloat. Only major downside was that this old school approach wasted a lot of the usefulness of a guy like Gomez, not his fault that everything was based around dumping the puck in and grinding, not exactly his stronk points.

As far as running the team, seemed to run a tight ship, not nearly as many half-public controversies as under a clown like Therrien. Any coach that could convince the Kostitsyns to backcheck and block shots deserves the Jack Adams as far as I am concerned.

The more I think about it, never should have been fired. His track record is astounding considering what he had to work with. In hindsight, would you really fire a coach that managed to turn Jaroslav Halak into the equivalent of a first/second round pick on a hands tied trade?

 

[Big Phil]

Im not tracking with you here, what demographic, what coach is their last great one?

Sort of what I asked too. All I can think of is perhaps Pat Quinn. If the Leafs aren't tapping into the pool of Irish-Canadians, well, then they should. I am guessing (?) he means French Canadians? I think if there was a French coach who fit the bill the Leafs ought to hire him if that is the case. But if he is talking about that are the Leafs really shunning that demographic? I don't know, he didn't clarify what he meant.

I followed the Martin habs closely, and my impressions of him were almost always positive. Intense focus on defence at the expense of offence, but effective in how he did it. IIRC those teams looked very vanilla and old school in their approach to the offensive zone, but got more than enough offence to stay afloat. Only major downside was that this old school approach wasted a lot of the usefulness of a guy like Gomez, not his fault that everything was based around dumping the puck in and grinding, not exactly his stronk points.

As far as running the team, seemed to run a tight ship, not nearly as many half-public controversies as under a clown like Therrien. Any coach that could convince the Kostitsyns to backcheck and block shots deserves the Jack Adams as far as I am concerned.

The more I think about it, never should have been fired. His track record is astounding considering what he had to work with. In hindsight, would you really fire a coach that managed to turn Jaroslav Halak into the equivalent of a first/second round pick on a hands tied trade?

He probably should have gotten the Sens over the hump at some time, just my thought. Good coach? I mean, sure, good and effective. Was an assistant with Team Canada at the Olympics for a reason. Like you said, he stressed defense at the expense sometimes of offense and even as a Leaf fan I thought those Sens teams should have gotten more out of their talent than they did. Just my two cents on the man.

 

[MXD]

Sort of what I asked too. All I can think of is perhaps Pat Quinn. If the Leafs aren't tapping into the pool of Irish-Canadians, well, then they should. I am guessing (?) he means French Canadians? I think if there was a French coach who fit the bill the Leafs ought to hire him if that is the case. But if he is talking about that are the Leafs really shunning that demographic? I don't know, he didn't clarify what he meant.

First of all, I don't think you're someone who can expect precisions when asking for them.

Second, please tell me Phil... Who was a better coach than Claude Julien in 2017? Amongst "known" quantities at least.

EDIT : Typo corrected.

 

[MXD]

No, but it was a major influence.

If you can't stand the media, you shouldn't be a head coach in the NHL.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

If you can't stand the media, you shouldn't be a head coach in the NHL.

Uh-huh, because coaches dealing with media controversy in Montreal is on the same level as in say Florida or Anaheim.

Even to coach in Toronto, you dont have the same level of second guessing from the press.

 

[MXD]

Uh-huh, because coaches dealing with media controversy in Montreal is on the same level as in say Florida or Anaheim.

Even to coach in Toronto, you dont have the same level of second guessing from the press.

You'll notice that I was answering someone who raised the media as an excuse to why a coach went for a 0.400 record and was subsequently fired (yet didn't say a thing about all the other coaches fired by that team, despite all of them having a better record than 0.400). That team wasn't that good, but it was much better than 0.400, and if the media prevents your from being better than that, you ... probably shouldn't coach in the NHL in any capacity (at that point). Or people making excuses for you should come with better ones (at the very least).

Of course, Montreal isn't like Florida, but it seems like the OP is basically claming that an exception should've been made for Randy Cunneyworth, and specifically for him, because reasons, all the while describing all the other coaches as worse than they actually are, also because reasons. And this is where bullshit has to be called for what it is.

Bottom-line : Being a head coach in the NHL isn't an entitlement. Bill Peters wasn't entitled to keep his job; he was deemed interchangeable and was fired/terminated, probably because the Flames didn't want to be associated with him anymore. As for Cunneyworth, the whole episode was a bit disgraceful (that protest in front of the Bell Center was pure cringefest, and the most obvious thing about it was the total lack of Canadiens merch/colors/flags in the crowd). I'm not aware of anyone saying bad things about Cunneyworth, and he was probably thrown into head coaching despite not being ready to do so, but he didn't make himself irreplaceable, so he was replaced when the GM that hired him was relieved of its duties.

 

[Big Phil]

First of all, I don't think you're someone who can expect precisions when asking for them.

Second, please tell me Phil... Who was a better coach than Claude Julien in 2017? Amongst "known" quantities at least.

EDIT : Typo corrected.

The problem is, and was, is that if his name was Claude Smith it wouldn't matter how good he was. This is what it is all about, it is what this entire discussion has been about. The Habs use a very narrow pool of coaches for political reasons and it hurts them in the long run. Julien is about to join Therrien and get fired from the Habs for the 2nd time this decade.

You'll notice that I was answering someone who raised the media as an excuse to why a coach went for a 0.400 record and was subsequently fired (yet didn't say a thing about all the other coaches fired by that team, despite all of them having a better record than 0.400). That team wasn't that good, but it was much better than 0.400, and if the media prevents your from being better than that, you ... probably shouldn't coach in the NHL in any capacity (at that point). Or people making excuses for you should come with better ones (at the very least).

Of course, Montreal isn't like Florida, but it seems like the OP is basically claming that an exception should've been made for Randy Cunneyworth, and specifically for him, because reasons, all the while describing all the other coaches as worse than they actually are, also because reasons. And this is where bullshit has to be called for what it is.

Bottom-line : Being a head coach in the NHL isn't an entitlement. Bill Peters wasn't entitled to keep his job; he was deemed interchangeable and was fired/terminated, probably because the Flames didn't want to be associated with him anymore. As for Cunneyworth, the whole episode was a bit disgraceful (that protest in front of the Bell Center was pure cringefest, and the most obvious thing about it was the total lack of Canadiens merch/colors/flags in the crowd). I'm not aware of anyone saying bad things about Cunneyworth, and he was probably thrown into head coaching despite not being ready to do so, but he didn't make himself irreplaceable, so he was replaced when the GM that hired him was relieved of its duties.

The issue was he was basically fired in a trial by media before he even got the chance. If he had a .750 winning percentage he still doesn't make the team if he doesn't speak good enough french.

Look, I'm not a Habs fan, they are far removed from being the standard the NHL should follow anymore, but perhaps they should re-visit their approach.