Cliff Fletcher The Great Destroyer

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Thinking Jeff Finger was Kurt Sauer and giving him a contract neither of them were worth will be an all timer for Fletcher.

People don't actually think he thought Sauer was Finger do they?

I have heard that but that can't be true

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

People don't actually think he thought Sauer was Finger do they?

I have heard that but that can't be true

When he described what the Leafs got in Finger, everything he said (metrics) lined up with Sauer, not Finger.

 

[Stephen]

When he described what the Leafs got in Finger, everything he said (metrics) lined up with Sauer, not Finger.

The true irony of that rumour is Kurt Sauer wasn't good either. So whatever millions Fletcher lined up in the budget to go Dman hunting could have just been used on keeping Kubina and McCabe around.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I always wondered this. Let's say Fletcher never trades their 1997 1st round pick to the Islanders for Clark, would Toronto even selected Luongo 4th overall?

Plus what if the Islanders had selected someone like Daniel Tkaczuk who went 6th overall and only played 19 NHL games for Calgary. Would anyone talk about how bad a trade that was?

 

[The Iceman]

He's still the best GM we've had in my lifetime, although, it is not like he's had much competition.

Lou was not perfect but better than BB

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

JFJ was the great destroyer, and yes I'm aware of Kessel but beyond that he did draft Kadri and Reilly signed Bozak, got JVR for Schenn, Phaneuf for scraps, and Gardiner and Lupul for Beauchmin.

Burke did some good things.

I can't point to a single positive thing JFJ did after 2004, he got Leetch and Francis and that was it, every single thing he did after 2004 sucked.

JFJ is the great destroyer

 

[Judas Tavares]

I started to really follow the NHL around 1997 but didn't go full obsession over it all til the 1998-99 season. With the introduction of LeafsTV/Maple Leafs Classics/Classic Series on the NHL Network, I really learned a lot about the '93 and '94 runs as it seemed they played those games the most.

But '95-'98 always seemed like a mystery to me, obviously for good reason. I've seen some highlights of the first round loses to Chicago and St. Louis (Only things that stand out in my head seem to be Randy Wood, I believe a Gartner and/or Sundin OT win and Nick Beverley and the bunch of idiots or something).

But reading threads like this and going to hockeydb and seeing the rosters of those years, wow there were a lot of past their prime players that you are familiar with via other teams, not the Leafs. Seems like such a strange era where the only constants were Sundin, Domi and Potvin.

 

[Buds17]

I always wondered this. Let's say Fletcher never trades their 1997 1st round pick to the Islanders for Clark, would Toronto even selected Luongo 4th overall?

Plus what if the Islanders had selected someone like Daniel Tkaczuk who went 6th overall and only played 19 NHL games for Calgary. Would anyone talk about how bad a trade that was?

Yes, there's no way to be certain about the Leaf selection had they retained that 4th overall. Of course, my bias would never let me talk about that trade being a bad one!

All kidding aside, that pick for the 1997 entry draft was traded away during the latter stages of the 1996 regular season. Although the team was struggling at the time of the trade, they did end up qualifying for the playoffs. Still, an argument could be made that going all in was ill-advised. I would also agree though that Tkaczuk being the draft selection instead of Luongo absolutely changes the perception of what was "traded away"/missed out on.

 

[Gabriel426]

I always wondered this. Let's say Fletcher never trades their 1997 1st round pick to the Islanders for Clark, would Toronto even selected Luongo 4th overall?

Plus what if the Islanders had selected someone like Daniel Tkaczuk who went 6th overall and only played 19 NHL games for Calgary. Would anyone talk about how bad a trade that was?

probably not as much but what if Leafs kept the pick and selected Lou? What if they trade up? Guess we will never know.

Funny thing is the top 3 picks of that draft either will or already played with the Leafs

 

[LeafsNation75]

probably not as much but what if Leafs kept the pick and selected Lou? Guess we will never know.

Let's say the Leafs had drafted Luongo, do they still sign Curtis Joseph in July 1998? If so does that mean they end up trading Luongo and let's remember they also had Felix Potvin at that time who was traded during the 1998-99 season to the Islanders for Bryan Berard.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Funny thing is the top 3 picks of that draft either will or already played with the Leafs

Four of the top 5 picks of that draft actually played or will have played with the Leafs if you include Eric Brewer who played 18 games for Toronto during the 2014-15 season, since he was selected 5th overall in 1997.

 

[Leafsfan74]

The recent Alex Steen retirement brought me back to thinking about Cliff Fletcher. For all the good and excitement he brought to Toronto in between 1992-1996 and the reputation for being a shrewd wheeler and dealer that brought us so many names like Gilmour, Sundin, Andreychuk, Fuhr in various blockbuster trade, I can't help but look at his whole body of work as some of the most disastrous management regime we have ever seen in modern Leafs history post Harold Ballard.

Sure, JFJ and Burke received their fair share of criticism for the Rask/Raycroft, Kessel trades which set us back years and Pat Quinn never really planned for a post lockout/salary cap world, but the amount of damage Cliff Fletcher did to the Leafs cannot be understated.

The Panic Buy of 1996:

Kenny Jonsson, the 1997 first round pick (Roberto Luongo), Sean Haggerty, Darby Hendrickson - for Wendel Clark, Mathieu Schneider and DJ Smith. Basically undid all the gains from the Mats Sundin trade in 1994 and took two franchise cornerstones out of the equation.

The Panic Sell off of 1996-97, when Steve Stavro slashed budget over night which resulted in the trading of still valuable assets for nothing:

Doug Gilmour and Dave Ellett - traded for Steve Sullivan, Alyn McCauley and Jason Smith. Probably a substandard return for Killer to begin with given the lack of picks in return, but made worse by mismanagement down the road.
Mike Gartner - traded for a 4th round pick.
Dave Andreychuk - traded for a third round pick.
Dave Gagner - traded for a third round pick.
Larry Murphy - traded for nothing.
Kirk Muller - traded for Jason Podollan.
Todd Gill - traded for a 5th round pick and Jamie Baker.

The Dismantling of the Muskoka Five 2008-09:

Alex Steen and Carlo Colaiacovo - traded for Lee Stempinak
Bryan McCabe with a 4th round pick! - traded for Mike Van Ryn
Pavel Kubina - traded for Garnett Exelby and Colin Stuart
Darcy Tucker - bought out.

To summarize, it's just insane how little return the Leafs got from the dismantling of two core groups at the hands of one GM over the course of two decades. The first go round was bad enough, but the second was just awful and unnecessary. I feel like we are looking at this history from a safe distance with a young team poised to do great things, but if you ever wonder why it took so long to get here, I think one man deserves more blame than all the rest.

General Managers need to roll the dice more often than they actually do. In Cliffs case, he probably did so more than he needed, but, at the very least, he was constantly trying to find the right combination to win. The more darts you throw the more you are going to get burned (and also succeed from time to time).

For me, it wasn't a trade of Cliff that soured me, but rather the non-trade of Sundin when Cliff was hired to run clean-up duty after JFJ was sacked. Sometimes, a franchise has to put it's character and reputation above immediate gain, something the Leafs hadn't done in years past (they are far better now).

The Leafs should have asked Sundin a couple of times gently and honestly to waive and accept a trade, explaining in detail why he is being asked ("it's not you Mats, it's me"), and then quietly and respectively accept his word if refused. Sundin was not just the leader of the Leafs and it's only star for so long, he was the rock who always carried himself well in public.

I recall Sundin getting called out by media for being "selfish" for not waiving and thus "hurting the Leafs". He shouldn't have been treated that way. I wanted to see him traded for assets too, simply because of where they were, it was strictly business.

However, as a man, I respected Sundins desire to stand his ground and see it through, whatever his reasons. He earned the full NTC and delivered for years, whatever he chose, it was his right. Take a man at his word and show some respect for what he accomplished. Often single-handedly on some of those weak teams.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I recall Sundin getting called out by media for being "selfish" for not waiving and thus "hurting the Leafs". He shouldn't have been treated that way. I wanted to see him traded for assets too, simply because of where they were, it was strictly business.

I think it was more of Sundin saying he didn't want to play for a new team that late into a season, however that's exactly what he did when he signed with the Canucks on December 18, 2008 which was three months into the 2008-09 season.

 

[LeafsNation75]

One thing you're neglecting is the Full NMC of the Muskoka Five, who stood behind those No Movement clause contracts, refused to be traded, so looking at the return of McCabe or the buyout of Tucker or the deal of Kabina was all to net getting full value but rather fulfilling the obligation of MLSE who brought him in to "Clear the Slate".

Turning the page and starting over and removing big, long term contracts was the goal. It would have been nice had the Muskoka 5 capitulated including Mats at the time but that wasn't the case of the returns would have been much higher..

Remember the Thomas Kaberle to Flyers for Jeff Carter and a First Round Pick accepted trade that Tomas vetoed?

With the benefit of hindsight and how great a player Jeff Carter was for the Flyers and Kings, that would have a been a great trade by Fletcher if Kaberle had not vetoed it.

Plus the Flyers 2008 1st round pick was going to be 27h overall and if Toronto had that they could have selected John Carlson, who was actually drafted at that spot since the Flyers traded that pick to the Capitals.

 

[93LEAFS]

Lou was not perfect but better than BB

I'm talking about Fletcher. Not Burke. Burke had a complete misevaluation of the team in 2010, which lead to him building on a foundation that didn't work.

 

[FraumBallard]

The recent Alex Steen retirement brought me back to thinking about Cliff Fletcher. For all the good and excitement he brought to Toronto in between 1992-1996 and the reputation for being a shrewd wheeler and dealer that brought us so many names like Gilmour, Sundin, Andreychuk, Fuhr in various blockbuster trade, I can't help but look at his whole body of work as some of the most disastrous management regime we have ever seen in modern Leafs history post Harold Ballard.

Sure, JFJ and Burke received their fair share of criticism for the Rask/Raycroft, Kessel trades which set us back years and Pat Quinn never really planned for a post lockout/salary cap world, but the amount of damage Cliff Fletcher did to the Leafs cannot be understated.

The Panic Buy of 1996:

Kenny Jonsson, the 1997 first round pick (Roberto Luongo), Sean Haggerty, Darby Hendrickson - for Wendel Clark, Mathieu Schneider and DJ Smith. Basically undid all the gains from the Mats Sundin trade in 1994 and took two franchise cornerstones out of the equation.

The Panic Sell off of 1996-97, when Steve Stavro slashed budget over night which resulted in the trading of still valuable assets for nothing:

Doug Gilmour and Dave Ellett - traded for Steve Sullivan, Alyn McCauley and Jason Smith. Probably a substandard return for Killer to begin with given the lack of picks in return, but made worse by mismanagement down the road.
Mike Gartner - traded for a 4th round pick.
Dave Andreychuk - traded for a third round pick.
Dave Gagner - traded for a third round pick.
Larry Murphy - traded for nothing.
Kirk Muller - traded for Jason Podollan.
Todd Gill - traded for a 5th round pick and Jamie Baker.

The Dismantling of the Muskoka Five 2008-09:

Alex Steen and Carlo Colaiacovo - traded for Lee Stempinak
Bryan McCabe with a 4th round pick! - traded for Mike Van Ryn
Pavel Kubina - traded for Garnett Exelby and Colin Stuart
Darcy Tucker - bought out.

To summarize, it's just insane how little return the Leafs got from the dismantling of two core groups at the hands of one GM over the course of two decades. The first go round was bad enough, but the second was just awful and unnecessary. I feel like we are looking at this history from a safe distance with a young team poised to do great things, but if you ever wonder why it took so long to get here, I think one man deserves more blame than all the rest.

Fletcher almost got us a cup.
WAY better Teams than we have now.
Hindsight makes it so easy to cherry pick.
How bout you do that now , for the current mgt group.
Such as it is.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The recent Alex Steen retirement brought me back to thinking about Cliff Fletcher.

I would say a major reason for Steen getting traded was Ron Wilson and the ice time he was giving him.

Maple Leafs Trade Tree: Alexander Steen - Sportsnet.ca

Steen had 45 points as a rookie, 35 as a sophomore, and 42 is his third year. Not mind-blowing but certainly not bad. Then the Leafs, and Cliff Fletcher, hired Ron Wilson in June 2008 and things didn’t go so well with Steen. His ice time dropped by about two and a half minutes from the year before and Steen began 2008-09 with just four points in 20 games with a 6.5 shooting percentage.

 

[kevsh]

General Managers need to roll the dice more often than they actually do. In Cliffs case, he probably did so more than he needed, but, at the very least, he was constantly trying to find the right combination to win.
The more darts you throw the more you are going to get burned (and also succeed from time to time).

For me, it wasn't a trade of Cliff that soured me, but rather the non-trade of Sundin when Cliff was hired to run clean-up duty after JFJ was sacked. Sometimes, a franchise has to put it's character and reputation above immediate gain, something the Leafs hadn't done in years past (they are far better now).

The Leafs should have asked Sundin a couple of times gently and honestly to waive and accept a trade, explaining in detail why he is being asked ("it's not you Mats, it's me"), and then quietly and respectively accept his word if refused. Sundin was not just the leader of the Leafs and it's only star for so long, he was the rock who always carried himself well in public.

I recall Sundin getting called out by media for being "selfish" for not waiving and thus "hurting the Leafs". He shouldn't have been treated that way. I wanted to see him traded for assets too, simply because of where they were, it was strictly business.

However, as a man, I respected Sundins desire to stand his ground and see it through, whatever his reasons. He earned the full NTC and delivered for years, whatever he chose, it was his right. Take a man at his word and show some respect for what he accomplished. Often single-handedly on some of those weak teams.

Good post. On Sundin, I never understood the hate for not "taking one for the team". If he agrees and gets shipped to another team for assets, he's no longer a Maple Leaf ... So why should he care what value they get back for him? The Leafs are now the competition.

Beyond that, when a player signs a deal and says he wants to play it through to the end the decision should be respected.

And this is coming from someone who was never a fan of Sundin.

 

[Gabriel426]

Let's say the Leafs had drafted Luongo, do they still sign Curtis Joseph in July 1998? If so does that mean they end up trading Luongo and let's remember they also had Felix Potvin at that time who was traded during the 1998-99 season to the Islanders for Bryan Berard.

They probably will due Lou being 19yrs old. Can you imagine having Lou bring the backup and learning from Cujo

 

[Gabriel426]

Four of the top 5 picks of that draft actually played or will have played with the Leafs if you include Eric Brewer who played 18 games for Toronto during the 2014-15 season, since he was selected 5th overall in 1997.

Forgot about Brewer.

 

[Stephen]

Fletcher almost got us a cup.
WAY better Teams than we have now.
Hindsight makes it so easy to cherry pick.
How bout you do that now , for the current mgt group.
Such as it is.

We made the final fours twice with Fletcher, that’s not almost winning the cup. And for the amount of all in mortgaging that those runs cost, it was too heavy a price to pay when we had to clean up scorched earth and Draft Shmaft. His moves were awful the day they happened.

 

[Stephen]

Four of the top 5 picks of that draft actually played or will have played with the Leafs if you include Eric Brewer who played 18 games for Toronto during the 2014-15 season, since he was selected 5th overall in 1997.

It’s quite the statistic! Ironically we managed to acquire 4/5 top five picks except the one guy that was used with our very own pick, though Nonis and Burke did try at various points to grab Luongo from Vancouver.

 

[Buds17]

Let's say the Leafs had drafted Luongo, do they still sign Curtis Joseph in July 1998? If so does that mean they end up trading Luongo and let's remember they also had Felix Potvin at that time who was traded during the 1998-99 season to the Islanders for Bryan Berard.

That's a tough hypothetical considering Fletcher wasn't the GM that signed CuJo. I might like to say that the team stays on course and continues to go forward with Potvin (and Luongo waiting in the wings). However, considering Fletcher had already traded the 1996 1st for Yushkevich, I don't see how the Leafs retain the 4th overall with the possibility of drafting Luongo.

 

[Menzinger]

While obviously will always respect his earlier work with the team, his second stint as GM was a pure disaster.

He was someone who clearly had not kept up with how teams needed to manage assets in the new salary cap era of the league.

 

[Buds17]

General Managers need to roll the dice more often than they actually do. In Cliffs case, he probably did so more than he needed, but, at the very least, he was constantly trying to find the right combination to win. The more darts you throw the more you are going to get burned (and also succeed from time to time).

For me, it wasn't a trade of Cliff that soured me, but rather the non-trade of Sundin when Cliff was hired to run clean-up duty after JFJ was sacked. Sometimes, a franchise has to put it's character and reputation above immediate gain, something the Leafs hadn't done in years past (they are far better now).

The Leafs should have asked Sundin a couple of times gently and honestly to waive and accept a trade, explaining in detail why he is being asked ("it's not you Mats, it's me"), and then quietly and respectively accept his word if refused. Sundin was not just the leader of the Leafs and it's only star for so long, he was the rock who always carried himself well in public.

I recall Sundin getting called out by media for being "selfish" for not waiving and thus "hurting the Leafs". He shouldn't have been treated that way. I wanted to see him traded for assets too, simply because of where they were, it was strictly business.

However, as a man, I respected Sundins desire to stand his ground and see it through, whatever his reasons. He earned the full NTC and delivered for years, whatever he chose, it was his right. Take a man at his word and show some respect for what he accomplished. Often single-handedly on some of those weak teams.

Agreed. Sure, Sundin was the team's best player and the asset that should have brought back the greatest trade return. Can't really be surprised when a player has that veto and utilizes it though. IIRC, Grabovski, Higgins and a 1st was to be the return from MTL. Fletcher later acquired Grabovski in trade anyway. Any rebuild was going to be affected by players with veto power. That was the reality of the situation and publicizing things wasn't likely to change any of it.