Line Combos: Cleary out for Tuesday?

[Chance on Chance]

As opposed to Miller and Abdelkader on the fourth line? At this point, we have to be hoping our bottom six doesn't actively cost us points. Maybe someone will get luck and pot a goal, but the real worry is that half our forward will get beat like dogs.



Look at the last GDT and all of the posts about Tatar turning the puck over. If we're noticing, the coaches are noticing. I don't like Tatar being out, I don't think it's right, but it's not exactly surprising. We need Weiss back and for him and Franzen to start playing with a damn.

I watched last game and noticed, but have the coaches watched the last 15 and seen Cleary do it? I dont like taking out a young player because of 1 game where he had some give aways but also some nice rushes.

If it was up to Babs no one would ever try anything offensive and everything would be dump and chase for offense and off the glass for defense

 

[Roy S]

I'm surprised Miller hasn't been scratched yet. Cleary is one of 5 forwards with a positive +- on the team. Tatar is also one. Miller is a -9; some is likely bad luck, but he provides no hope of offense either.

I think he'd be the next guy out in the rotation- Tatar does need to start producing points when he's in the game though. 3 points in 11 games this season and 11 in 38 games in his career aren't going to cut it and is one of the main reasons why he's still at risk of being cut. He turns it over quite a bit and the coach doesn't trust him much defensively, so he's got to bring offense when he's in the game beyond what the safer, defensive players can bring.

 

[DatsyukianDeke*]

As opposed to Miller and Abdelkader on the fourth line? At this point, we have to be hoping our bottom six doesn't actively cost us points. Maybe someone will get luck and pot a goal, but the real worry is that half our forward will get beat like dogs.



Look at the last GDT and all of the posts about Tatar turning the puck over. If we're noticing, the coaches are noticing. I don't like Tatar being out, I don't think it's right, but it's not exactly surprising. We need Weiss back and for him and Franzen to start playing with a damn.

Did you watch Datsyuk in his rookie season ? That's how relevant that argument is.

 

[DatsyukianDeke*]

I'm surprised Miller hasn't been scratched yet. Cleary is one of 5 forwards with a positive +- on the team. Tatar is also one. Miller is a -9; some is likely bad luck, but he provides no hope of offense either.

I think he'd be the next guy out in the rotation- Tatar does need to start producing points when he's in the game though. 3 points in 11 games this season and 11 in 38 games in his career aren't going to cut it and is one of the main reasons why he's still at risk of being cut. He turns it over quite a bit and the coach doesn't trust him much defensively, so he's got to bring offense when he's in the game beyond what the safer, defensive players can bring.

Kind of hard when you play with players that have no offensive games. He played 1 game with Alfie, 2 with Weiss, 0 with Datsyuk, 0 with Zetterberg, 0 with Franzen.

Cleary has played 5 or 6 games on the 2nd line (20 minutes a game), and played with Datsyuk and Z a couple times this year.

 

[Winger98]

I watched last game and noticed, but have the coaches watched the last 15 and seen Cleary do it? I dont like taking out a young player because of 1 game where he had some give aways but also some nice rushes.

If it was up to Babs no one would ever try anything offensive and everything would be dump and chase for offense and off the glass for defense

I don't agree with Tatar being taken out, either, but the turnovers have been a problem for awhile. I don't mind Cleary in the lineup, but I'd have him in a rotation with Miller, Sammy, Andersson, Glendening, while leaving Tatar in. I don't see any of them as consistent difference makers at this point, and I'd rather just run with the kid.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

same old song and dance from the same old bottom of the league coach/mgmt team

nothing creative

nothing with foresight

 

[ProPAIN]

So pissed off about waiving the wrong players and benching Tatar, I'm changing my avatar back. **** Cleary.

 

[Vladdy84]

So pissed off about waiving the wrong players and benching Tatar, I'm changing my avatar back. **** Cleary.

Yeah pretty much this. I'm so fed up with Babcock and to a lesser-extent Holland. 65% of my hate towards Babcock and 35% towards Holland.

 

[InjuredChoker]

well to be fair, tatar wasn't doing what he wanted him to do; shoot the puck and be responsible defensively.

he wasn't bad and if he was vet, i don't think he would have been benched. but the tried to do too much, some unnecessary turnovers, trying to stick handle through the whole team etc. and as he has been locked into the bench basically for the 3rd periods and ot's, it's clear that babs doesn't trust him.

it's not fair yeah.. but it is what it is.

 

[odin1981]

Guess my question got buried... oh well once again anyone familiar with what the cap violation penalties are under this cba?

 

[Xvash2]

well to be fair, tatar wasn't doing what he wanted him to do; shoot the puck and be responsible defensively.

he wasn't bad and if he was vet, i don't think he would have been benched. but the tried to do too much, some unnecessary turnovers, trying to stick handle through the whole team etc. and as he has been locked into the bench basically for the 3rd periods and ot's, it's clear that babs doesn't trust him.

it's not fair yeah.. but it is what it is.

Are we talking about Tatar or Quincey?

 

[Vladdy84]

well to be fair, tatar wasn't doing what he wanted him to do; shoot the puck and be responsible defensively.

he wasn't bad and if he was vet, i don't think he would have been benched. but the tried to do too much, some unnecessary turnovers, trying to stick handle through the whole team etc. and as he has been locked into the bench basically for the 3rd periods and ot's, it's clear that babs doesn't trust him.

it's not fair yeah.. but it is what it is.

Considering his ice time. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 3rd on the team in shots per 60/min behind Dats and Z. How many turnovers had he had in the defensive zone? I remember one, which was mostly Quincey's fault.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Considering his ice time. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 3rd on the team in shots per 60/min behind Dats and Z. How many turnovers had he had in the defensive zone? I remember one, which was mostly Quincey's fault.

at least abby and sammy have more.

and tatar had only 1 both of last two games iirc.

he had more than that in def. zone in the games he has played. can't recall more closely but i'm pretty sure of it.

 

[Henkka]

Considering his ice time. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 3rd on the team in shots per 60/min behind Dats and Z. How many turnovers had he had in the defensive zone? I remember one, which was mostly Quincey's fault.

I will get you some data soon.

Some data from defence first:

Hits/min without PP IT:

Ericsson 5.55
Lashoff 3.85
Smith 3.60
DeKeyser 2.58
Quincey 2.21
Kindl 2.02
Kronwall 1.74

Blocks/min without PP IT:

Kronwall 6.78
DeKeyser 5.47
Lashoff 4.58
Quincey 4.11
Kindl 3.12
Ericsson 2.47 (this lack of shot blocking I still wonder in Ericsson)
Smith 2.40

Takeaways/min:

Quincey 1.38
Kindl 1.31
Lashoff 1.20
Smith 0.90
Ericsson 0.60
Kronwall 0.46
DeKeyser 0.15

Giveaways/min:

Lashoff 0.96
Kronwall 1.52
Kindl 1.96
Quincey 1.99
DeKeyser 2.07
Ericsson 2.71
Smith 3.29

 

[Yzerman1919*]

How is Tatar going to learn from the press box so a guy over 10 years older than him can play on a world's *****iest third line? Good god. I also saw one defensive zone turnover, and a couple in the OFFENSIVE zone, along with a few shots and drawing a penalty. When the puck is dumped in, he is grinding away to retrieve it.

Re-boycotting the games

 

[DatsyukianDeke*]

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2013/11/13/5099686/evaluating-tomas-tatar


Speaks for itself.

 

[Henkka]

Forwards, shots/60min without PK time.

Zetterberg 11.55
Abdelkader 10.41
Datsyuk 9.47
Samuelsson 9.41
Glendening 8.78
Tatar 8.64
Franzen 7.91
Bertuzzi 7.56
Alfredsson 7.36 (Alfie should really shoot more, at least same than Zetterberg, too good shot to be wasted)
Helm 6.88
Miller 6.28
Cleary 5.56
Weiss 5.31
Andersson 5.12
Tootoo 4.16


Hits/60min:

Tootoo 18.71
Abdelkader 14.09
Helm 13.23
Samuelsson 7.99
Tatar 7.46
Bertuzzi 6.29
Miller 5.98
Franzen 5.02
Alfredsson 4.80
Glendening 4.77
Cleary 4.46
Datsyuk 2.33
Zetterberg 2.21
Andersson 1.12

Blocks/60min:

Miller 4.16
Glendening 3.18
Andersson 2.24
Datsyuk 2.15
Tatar 1.99
Weiss 1.97
Abdelkader 1.64
Alfredsson 1.53
Cleary 1.49
Franzen 1.48
Zetterberg 1.10
Samuelsson 1.00
Helm 0.88
Bertuzzi 0.50
Tootoo 0.00


Takeaways/60min:

Datsyuk 4.57 (leads NHL, again)
Tatar 3.02
Alfredsson 2.35
Zetterberg 1.87
Weiss 1.79
Andersson 1.78
Helm 1.72
Abdelkader 1.58
Franzen 1.54
Miller 1.29
Bertuzzi 1.05
Samuelsson 0.86
Cleary 0.68
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00

Giveaways/60min:

Miller 0.00
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00
Tatar 0.43
Cleary 0.46
Helm 0.86
Abdelkader 1.13
Samuelsson 1.71
Zetterberg 1.72
Andersson 1.78
Franzen 1.80
Datsyuk 1.83
Weiss 2.02
Bertuzzi 2.10
Alfredsson 2.35

Takeaway stat is somewhat ok, but I don't like compare those giveaways straght in ice-time. Because players who have lot the puck have a tendency to lose it most. And grinders whose 1st priority to try retrieve the puck, very rarely loses it, because they very rarely have it.

So, solution for this is takeaway/60min - giveaways/60min:

Datsyuk 2.74
Tatar 2.59
Miller 1.29
Helm 0.86
Abdelkader 0.45
Cleary 0.23
Zetterberg 0.16
Alfredsson 0.00
Andersson 0.00
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00
Weiss -0.22
Franzen -0.26
Samuelsson -0.86
Bertuzzi -1.05

Take any of those statistical categories, and Tatar beats Cleary. Also Sammy looks ok, when compared to Cleary.

 

[Vladdy84]

Forwards, shots/60min without PK time.

Zetterberg 11.55
Abdelkader 10.41
Datsyuk 9.47
Samuelsson 9.41
Glendening 8.78
Tatar 8.64
Franzen 7.91
Bertuzzi 7.56
Alfredsson 7.36 (Alfie should really shoot more, at least same than Zetterberg, too good shot to be wasted)
Helm 6.88
Miller 6.28
Cleary 5.56
Weiss 5.31
Andersson 5.12
Tootoo 4.16


Hits/60min:

Tootoo 18.71
Abdelkader 14.09
Helm 13.23
Samuelsson 7.99
Tatar 7.46
Bertuzzi 6.29
Miller 5.98
Franzen 5.02
Alfredsson 4.80
Glendening 4.77
Cleary 4.46
Datsyuk 2.33
Zetterberg 2.21
Andersson 1.12

Blocks/60min:

Miller 4.16
Glendening 3.18
Andersson 2.24
Datsyuk 2.15
Tatar 1.99
Weiss 1.97
Abdelkader 1.64
Alfredsson 1.53
Cleary 1.49
Franzen 1.48
Zetterberg 1.10
Samuelsson 1.00
Helm 0.88
Bertuzzi 0.50
Tootoo 0.00


Takeaways/60min:

Datsyuk 4.57 (leads NHL, again)
Tatar 3.02
Alfredsson 2.35
Zetterberg 1.87
Weiss 1.79
Andersson 1.78
Helm 1.72
Abdelkader 1.58
Franzen 1.54
Miller 1.29
Bertuzzi 1.05
Samuelsson 0.86
Cleary 0.68
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00

Giveaways/60min:

Miller 0.00
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00
Tatar 0.43
Cleary 0.46
Helm 0.86
Abdelkader 1.13
Samuelsson 1.71
Zetterberg 1.72
Andersson 1.78
Franzen 1.80
Datsyuk 1.83
Weiss 2.02
Bertuzzi 2.10
Alfredsson 2.35

Takeaway stat is somewhat ok, but I don't like compare those giveaways straght in ice-time. Because players who have lot the puck have a tendency of lose it most. And grinders whose 1st priority to try retrieve the puck, very rarely loses it, because they very rarely have it.

So, solution for this is takeaway/60min - giveaways/60min:

Datsyuk 2.74
Tatar 2.59
Miller 1.29
Helm 0.86
Abdelkader 0.45
Cleary 0.23
Zetterberg 0.16
Alfredsson 0.00
Andersson 0.00
Glendening 0.00
Tootoo 0.00
Weiss -0.22
Franzen -0.26
Samuelsson -0.86
Bertuzzi -1.05

Take any of those statistical categories, and Tatar beats Cleary. Also Sammy looks ok, when compared to Cleary.

Excellent work. Thanks for the stats.

 

[Henkka]

How is Tatar going to learn from the press box so a guy over 10 years older than him can play on a world's *****iest third line? Good god. I also saw one defensive zone turnover, and a couple in the OFFENSIVE zone, along with a few shots and drawing a penalty. When the puck is dumped in, he is grinding away to retrieve it.

Re-boycotting the games

Maybe he takes some extra notes at the pressbox and learns from the anti-example from Cleary. "That's what I'm not gonna do."

 

[TatarTangle]

As much as I want to see my team win I can't help but hope they get severely outplayed with Cleary coming back and Tatar in the presser.

It's no EDM gongshow right now but it's a gongshow here nonetheless.

 

[skinneh]

Thanks Henkka. Stats prove what we see on the ice.

 

[Vladdy84]

Thanks Henkka. Stats prove what we see on the ice.

True, but the eye-test makes it look way way way worse.

 

[Flowah]

True, but the eye-test makes it look way way way worse.

Not to me.

Giveaways suck, sure, but everyone gives the puck away. Even Datsyuk. You have to balance it with how many chances they generate and how much they deter the other team's chances. I wasn't keeping hard stats like Henkka, but my eye test had Tatar creating far more than he gave up. He's just an offensive chance generator, even with his limited time. And despite Babcock's insistence that he is defensively unsound, he is absolutely fine in that regard. Plus, he's only going to get better.

 

[Flowah]

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2013/11/13/5099686/evaluating-tomas-tatar


Speaks for itself.

Wow. such numbers. so obvious. much Tatar.

Also, this bit in the comments was *hilarious*

One thing I was particularly puzzled by was why Andersson was so mediocre without Tatar (45.8%), because I think Andersson has seemingly played pretty well in his own right. Then I remembered who Andersson has spent the most time with this season, and that’s… Daniel Cleary. Cleary has routinely been the Wings worst possession forward so far this season (though Weiss has given him a run for his money), so I did a quick sanity check:

Andersson with Cleary: 43.9%
Andersson without Cleary: 53.1%
Cleary without Andersson: 43.7%

Can the Wings hire an advanced stats guy already so we can stop this nonsense. We've been saying it and we've been saying it. Cleary is a flat out offense killer. He drains the life out of every line he touches. Meanwhile the numbers show the opposite for Tatar. Everywhere he goes, the line gets better. BUT GUESS WHO'S GETTING BENCHED FOR WHOM.

 

[Henkka]

No wonder Cleary has been the anchor also for Andersson.