Line Combos: Cleary out for Tuesday?

[SoupNazi]

Doesn't Cleary only have 1P this season? The goal that Alfie fed him in Boston, right?

Terrible, lol.

One goal and two assists, 3 points. Still not much better.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Good to see, but this doesn't undo the mistake of signing him. Until he is off the team, he will continue to hurt the Wings.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Conspiracy theory: Babcock wanted Cleary off the team from the start, so he gives Cleary a ton of minutes in the hopes that it would make it even more obvious to Holland how useless he is.

 

[Syckle78]

I agree there have been mistakes made in some signings. But I don't think I'm ready to jump off any buildings. We aren't out of a playoff spot. The reason we are not playing up to snuff isn't because Nyquist isn't in the line up. He's not that good. Just better than Cleary. This team is under performing and still in a playoff position. I don't think they will play worse than this for the rest of the year.

I don't buy it. This team isn't under performing. It's a bad roster and just not a very good team.

 

[RedWingzz]

free Nyquist!!

 

[sepster]

Out of the lineup, just one more demotion to go... as in, out of the organization. Seeing as he is still under 35, it should be him hitting the waiver wire to recoup a roster space and 900K+ of cap space.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Out of the lineup, just one more demotion to go... as in, out of the organization. Seeing as he is still under 35, it should be him hitting the waiver wire to recoup a roster space and 900K+ of cap space.

can you be the DRW GM??

 

[Henkka]

Conspiracy theory: Babcock wanted Cleary off the team from the start, so he gives Cleary a ton of minutes in the hopes that it would make it even more obvious to Holland how useless he is.

I remember Holland has talked about this "system" before. They go with at vet as long as it seems obvious that it's time to replace him with kids. Kids have to play those vets out of the roster by being better.

This has happened in earlier seasons. At the playoffs, we have used more kids compared to regular season. They want to see and get evidence, that it really is the case, then start executing guys and brings kids in.

But they don't want go straight from the start with kids. If those kids fail, there's no plan B, other than trading assets away during the season. But if you start with vets (a plan A) and if they fail then go to plan B (kids). Those kids won't cost any assets to promote in.

Signing vets from UFA (Plan A) and going with kids as (Plan B) is better asset management

than

going with kids (Plan A) and trading for vets as Plan B.

That's IMHO is the Red Wings management logic.

 

[sepster]

Aren't we getting a little dramatic considering where we are in the standings? Let's not kid our selves about our line up either. We wouldn't be running away with the presidents trophy if we had Nyquist in the lineup over Cleary. Yes I think Nyquist is better but adding a 30 point player to the line up isn't going to make a huge difference. Things will work them selves out. Holland has once again assembled a very competitive team.

When you also add in the number of under performing players we have I think things will only get better.

Certain players, and the team in general, are under-performing because there are anchors scattered throughout the lineup. When Cleary is on the ice, the team might as well be short handed. When Sammy is on the ice, the team might as well be short handed. Franzen has been invisible. Abdelkader is playing in a spot well above what he is capable. Weiss hasn't figured out how to play in a new system yet.

Now, Weiss will eventually get his act together. Abdelkader, if returned to the 4th line, can be effective in his appropriate role. Franzen... COULD be a lost cause.

But, Cleary and Samuelsson are beyond hope. They are done. They need to go posthaste.

 

[aar000n]

Don't tease me

 

[Kronwalled55]

Babcock is the one who has been insisting on playing him 15+ minutes a game, not Holland.

Yeah, but Holland had to of known this is how Babcock would use him.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Cleary isn't the reason we aren't doing well. It's the whole team.

yeah, outside of one line.

I remember Holland has talked about this "system" before. They go with at vet as long as it seems obvious that it's time to replace him with kids. Kids have to play those vets out of the roster by being better.

This has happened in earlier seasons. At the playoffs, we have used more kids compared to regular season. They want to see and get evidence, that it really is the case, then start executing guys and brings kids in.

But they don't want go straight from the start with kids. If those kids fail, there's no plan B, other than trading assets away during the season. But if you start with vets (a plan A) and if they fail then go to plan B (kids). Those kids won't cost any assets to promote in.

Signing vets from UFA (Plan A) and going with kids as (Plan B) is better asset management

than

going with kids (Plan A) and trading for vets as Plan B.

That's IMHO is the Red Wings management logic.

yes and me and maybe most here are fine with that.

but that doesn't explain cleary signing.

 

[sepster]

Yeah, it was abundantly clear that the kids play made the Sammy's and Cleary's of this team unnecessary by the end of last season (IMO, before that). There is just no justifiable reason for re-signing Dan Cleary. None. It was/is a pure screw-up plain and simple.

 

[Flowah]

I remember Holland has talked about this "system" before. They go with at vet as long as it seems obvious that it's time to replace him with kids. Kids have to play those vets out of the roster by being better.

This has happened in earlier seasons. At the playoffs, we have used more kids compared to regular season. They want to see and get evidence, that it really is the case, then start executing guys and brings kids in.

But they don't want go straight from the start with kids. If those kids fail, there's no plan B, other than trading assets away during the season. But if you start with vets (a plan A) and if they fail then go to plan B (kids). Those kids won't cost any assets to promote in.

Signing vets from UFA (Plan A) and going with kids as (Plan B) is better asset management

than

going with kids (Plan A) and trading for vets as Plan B.

That's IMHO is the Red Wings management logic.

That logic makes sense and I approve of it.

However... I think after their performances last year, Tatar and Nyquist both showed "we are ready and better than a lot of your veterans." So I'm not so sure.

 

[sepster]

"For a guy of his hockey sense and ability, he's got to be a factor every night," Babcock said. "I don't see that."

Dan Cleary's hockey sense has always been garbage. He earned his spot based on hard work and willingness to grind. Once his body doesn't allow him to keep up physically, he's done exactly BECAUSE his hockey sense is so poor. I could appreciate his hard work back in the day, but I always HATED when he played with Z or Pav. If the puck came to him, that was basically the end of Z or Pav's shift because it was either 30 secs of him dicking around along the boards with it or a turnover.

Physically, Cleary is done and his hockey sense isn't saving him from uselessness.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Conspiracy theory: Babcock wanted Cleary off the team from the start, so he gives Cleary a ton of minutes in the hopes that it would make it even more obvious to Holland how useless he is.

Not a great conspiracy theory, he did an awful lot of campaigning for him for that to be the case. Holland seemed reluctant but still turning the page on him in July, Babcock gave glowing comments the whole time. Realistically both men wanted Cleary back, in fact you could say Babcock was firmly in Cleary's camp throughout the process. A perk of the different job title, but there is just no way you're ever going to convince me that Babcock wasn't cheer-leading his *** off behind the scenes for one Daniel Cleary.

 

[InjuredChoker]

another problem with signing vets: they might regress. i'm looking at you sammy.

and unlike with kids, they might become untradeable and waste roster/cap space.

 

[TS Quint]

Certain players, and the team in general, are under-performing because there are anchors scattered throughout the lineup. When Cleary is on the ice, the team might as well be short handed. When Sammy is on the ice, the team might as well be short handed. Franzen has been invisible. Abdelkader is playing in a spot well above what he is capable. Weiss hasn't figured out how to play in a new system yet.

Now, Weiss will eventually get his act together. Abdelkader, if returned to the 4th line, can be effective in his appropriate role. Franzen... COULD be a lost cause.

But, Cleary and Samuelsson are beyond hope. They are done. They need to go posthaste.

Even if Weiss and Franzen improve to somewhere they typically play that's 2/3 of a 2nd line add Alfredson to the line and that's pretty good. Franzen is what he is a very streaky player. That leaves you wanting more because you see how good he can be then he disconnects for a stretch.

I also think Alfredson could step it up a bit. To me he's seems a little inconsistent relying on positioning and no hustle, maybe better line mates would help him out.

I think Tatar and Anderson will get better as they adjusts to the league.

Sammy, Cleary what did anyone expect. Bad signings. If Cleary can so much as play a 4th line grind roll that's what I would expect. But if Anderson and Tatar can step up its not like Sammy and Cleary will be missed in the top 9.

 

[Henkka]

another problem with signing vets: they might regress. i'm looking at you sammy.

and unlike with kids, they might become untradeable and waste roster/cap space.

Yep, but Sammy didn't cost any asset, Cleary didn't cost any asset, Tootoo didn't cost any asset because they were FREE AGENTS.

If those kids won't pan out, trading DURING THE SEASON for vet help costs always assets.

So it's this rebuilding on the fly ideology. You keep your assets.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Yep, but Sammy didn't cost any asset, Cleary didn't cost any asset, Tootoo didn't cost any asset because they were FREE AGENTS.

If those kids won't pan out, trading DURING THE SEASON for vet help costs always assets.

So it's this rebuilding on the fly ideology. You keep your assets.

They cost development time for the prospects.

They cost cap space

They cost a roster spot.

Wings are not rebuilding on the fly. They are a sinking ship being kept afloat by Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

I love how you try to make it seem like there is no downside to signing washed up garbage.

I guess icing an inferior lineup is considered a good thing. Thanks Kenny!

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Yep, but Sammy didn't cost any asset, Cleary didn't cost any asset, Tootoo didn't cost any asset because they were FREE AGENTS.

If those kids won't pan out, trading DURING THE SEASON for vet help costs always assets.

So it's this rebuilding on the fly ideology. You keep your assets.

all players cost one way or another

having cleary and sammy means no nyquist or ferrao or jurco in the lineup

having sammy means we couldnt use his 3 million dollars on a better player

if having all these vets was the correct thign to do, then chicago, la, boston and pittsburgh would be loading up on them as well

 

[cjm502]

Yep, but Sammy didn't cost any asset, Cleary didn't cost any asset, Tootoo didn't cost any asset because they were FREE AGENTS.

If those kids won't pan out, trading DURING THE SEASON for vet help costs always assets.

So it's this rebuilding on the fly ideology. You keep your assets.

If the kids dont pan out are they really valuable assets though? Im thinking not.

 

[sepster]

Not to mention Cleary wouldn't have lasted until the absolute 11th hour before Ken Holland had a major brain fart and offered him a contract.

In today's NHL, teams go with the kids as option 1 (because they are cheaper, have more potential and are easier to unload if they don't work out), and vets as option 2 (because they cost more, money is guaranteed, they may add experience but their potential is tapped and if they don't work out, they're practically impossible to unload).

 

[InjuredChoker]

Yep, but Sammy didn't cost any asset, Cleary didn't cost any asset, Tootoo didn't cost any asset because they were FREE AGENTS.

If those kids won't pan out, trading DURING THE SEASON for vet help costs always assets.

So it's this rebuilding on the fly ideology. You keep your assets.

for what sammy has brought, there is always players like him available. no doubt tatar and nyquist would have brought and have brought more than him. or cleary.

last season they started with medicore d depth and then picked up huskins when injuries striked and he was solid.

esp. with those deals they got. raymond signed for 1. mil. boyes the same for two years in a row.

 

[Retire91]

I remember Holland has talked about this "system" before. They go with at vet as long as it seems obvious that it's time to replace him with kids. Kids have to play those vets out of the roster by being better.

This has happened in earlier seasons. At the playoffs, we have used more kids compared to regular season. They want to see and get evidence, that it really is the case, then start executing guys and brings kids in.

But they don't want go straight from the start with kids. If those kids fail, there's no plan B, other than trading assets away during the season. But if you start with vets (a plan A) and if they fail then go to plan B (kids). Those kids won't cost any assets to promote in.

Signing vets from UFA (Plan A) and going with kids as (Plan B) is better asset management

than

going with kids (Plan A) and trading for vets as Plan B.

That's IMHO is the Red Wings management logic.

Its a good system but only if you sign vets that don't actually make your team worse and overpay them so you have no cap room to work with. How about not trading away anymore first rounders for said team worsening vets also.