Management Claude Julien - Mod Warning post 643

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Absurdity

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I think you move the goal posts a little here Hazi.

For example, you blame head coach for the poor PP (not the assistant who works the PP), but then you flip that perspective and praise the assistant who works with the defense and not the head coach. Personally, I think Julien is in charge of the schemes for both, and should be held accountable for both. The PP should generate more chances and that's a black mark on him. The surprisingly strong play of the D should be a credit to him.

When Sweeney first became the GM of the Bruins, his vision of how the defense would transition the puck out of their zone came into fruition this season. Not last season, this season. The only major difference of personnel on defense has been Carlo. I believe it was Jarvis, may have been Houda, who was responsible for working with the defense while he was with the Bruins and all we saw in that time were D-to-D passes in the defensive zone. Cassidy has been responsible with working with the defense this season, and Sacco is responsible for the PP. I agree that the coach should be the one held accountable for both and should be applauded/criticized depending on how well each perform, but in my opinion, I do not think it is a coincidence the Bruins' defense looks a lot better this season than last season since Cassidy replaced Jarvis/Houda.

You talk about making bad line combinations. But everyone here thinks they have "right" combination and all our opinions differ. I remember a week or two back when he mixed things up and first two pages in the GDT were about how he got it all wrong, yet nobody had the same mix. Some folks think they should spread the talent across three lines, others think they should load up. Some think they're fools to break up the only line that's really played great, others think they HAVE to split that line up...

That is 100% fair. We all have our opinions about who should play where. However, when I see people complain about management giving Claude guys like Nash to fill in next to Bergeron and Marchand, Claude is responsible for the team's line combinations. He has the power to change them, and it only has been recently that he has because the Bruins are having trouble scoring. The Bruins called up Heinen who has been producing in Providence and yet he was scratched for someone like Nash.

You talk about playing players in positions they'd be better at but how do you know they'd be better? Backes played 3 games at C, in 2 of the 3 he went pointless. Spooner has also played a few games at C this year but his best game came on Krejci and Backes' wing where Julien said if he played like that all the time they'd have tons of ice time for him.

Guys like Spooner and Czarnik are centers. Czarnik looked great, he has adjusted to RW and has looked great there as well in my opinion, a few games ago centering the 3rd/4th line because of how much space that position gives him. The same goes with Spooner. Spooner had 49pts last season as a center. Sure Spooner's best game may have come as a winger, but Backes best game this season has also come from playing center. Backes' most successful production as a Blues was centering Steen and Oshie. I'm not saying he can't be productive as a RW, but there is evidence that he has been productive as a C.

You act like putting bottom6 forwards in the top6 was Julien's dream plan all along. They're obviously just subbing. I think he's going for a Connolly vibe by putting Nash there, but the minute he has a real top6 forward to put there Nash goes back to the bottom6. He's been desperate for Spooner to take flight on the left side with Krejci but it's only come in spurts. Still, Spooner plays more than Nash or Schaller or Moore. The offensive players on this team, play more than the defensive ones.

I don't disagree. What I disagree with are fans that try to defend Claude through the rough patches this team is facing by saying management has only given Claude guys like Nash or Acciari to fill out the roster when Claude himself scratched Heinen, who has also played in the Bruins top 6 this season, when he was called up. Claude chooses what the lines are. If he wants other options from Providence, I'm sure he can ask Sweeney to call someone up.

I don't agree with the no-chemistry comment on Krejci and Backes either. That pass from Backes to Krejci the other night was fantastic, Krejci just got robbed. I just think that pair needs a shooter. They're not getting that from Spooner... They tried Heinen for 8 games and got nothing. They tried Beleskey and they've tried Schaller. Hopefully Vatrano is that guy.

If I am to dismiss Backes' one great game playing C as evidence that Backes may not be better suited as a RW, am I allowed to dismiss the fact that it was 1 pass in a game against one of the worst teams in the league in a game where the Islanders had a lead against the Bruins? I don't think Krejci-Backes duo has been strong at all this season. Why do Krejci and Backes become the control group in an experiment of "pick a winger out of a hat until Vatrano comes back??" What if Krejci and Backes just aren't compatible? The only time Backes left Krejci's wing, apart from Bergeron's injury early in the season, was when Claude decided to separate the Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak line and have Backes replace Pastrnak on that line. He hasn't tried Backes with anyone else. I agree that I do hope Vatrano is that guy because the Bruins could really use two top 6 lines that are able to produce. If it doesn't work out, I wonder how long until fans start turning on Vatrano and blaming management for not getting Claude a proper top 6 LW instead of looking at a potential problem in the control group (Krejci & Backes) in which Claude doesn't see an issue with.

I also think folks understate the injuries this team has had to deal with, and how it affects the lineup. You talk about keeping top6 guys in the top6 but they don't have two legit top6 RW's when Pasta is out. It's debatable whether or not they have two "top6" LW's either. Who, in your mind, constitutes the top6 talent that should be getting all the top6 time? And do you think it worth it to push any of that talent to the 3rd line to try to get some offense from there? You put Spooner at 3C which is where you hinted he'd be better and you have no top6 LW to play with Krejci. Call up Heinen again? He played once during the recent call-up and once again he was a non-factor (unless you count the -1 as a factor).

Injuries have been a major factor for this team in terms of offense. I stated a few posts back that it may actually be the first time Claude may have a "healthy" group of forwards this season when Vatrano and Pastrnak enter the lineup (healthy used loosely because I believe Bergeron may be playing injured). I think there are a ton of options for the wings. Heinen, Spooner, Czarnik, Cehlarik, and Mueller could all be options. The problem is trying to find a LW that fits with Krejci and Backes, and that is the problem. Sure the Bruins are thin at RW, but let's say the Bruins played Backes at #3C. That would give them three lines with impact players on each of them. It's not ideal to play Spooner on the wing, but he would either slide to Krejci's LW, LW with Backes, or potentially play his offwing with Marchand and Bergeron which is even less ideal. Spooner played his best game this season at LW so why not give it a shot? I know Heinen hasn't produced at the NHL level, but I think that is the only negative in his game. He is sound defensively, plays a two way game, and is great at intercepting passes in the neutral zone. He played with Backes in the preseason which is where he could slot on the 3rd line. Heinen also looked great next to Marchand and Bergeron in that one game. Czarnik is capable of playing wing so it would be either on lines 1,2, or 3. Cehlarik or Mueller could also play at wing. Cehlarik has been one of Providence's best forwards. He has size, can produce, and I think can play either wing. Mueller is a veteran winger that can play on any line. I can go on and on, but my point is that there are options for Claude. The problem has been trying to make Krejci and Backes work with some LW not named Vatrano until he's healthy rather than finding other combinations with players currently on the roster or with players called up from Providence.

And then there's the "system" and the poor offensive scheme comment... This team is top5 in the NHL in creating scoring chances. They certainly don't have top5 offensive talent with the way they're banged up.. The way I look at it, a coach can't score goals but he can give the team a plan generates chances. He can give the team a plan that denies chances. And this team, consistently does that. They are top5 in the league in both categories. He can't make Krejci finish off that sweet feed from Backes, but "the system" he employs generates shots for and denies shots against better than any team in the league.

I have no problem with the system as it has shown it can work. I think we can all agree that the PP needs to be fixed. The problem is that those scoring chances, 5 on 5, aren't of any quality. They play on the perimeter once entering and establishing themselves in the offensive zone. It's dump-in, cycle, back to the D, and a shot blocked by a defender. That's what I meant in terms of changing their offensive scheme. That whole process needs to change.
 
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Fenway

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I believe Sweeney has a plan and Claude has bought into it.

What none of us knows is how ownership feels.
 

22Brad Park

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I believe Sweeney has a plan and Claude has bought into it.

What none of us knows is how ownership feels.

They have to make playoffs or Claude will be first at chopping block.I think Bruins play this out till then with him.
 
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rudos1

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Oct 22, 2009
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IF the Bz want to make a run at a playoff spot Claude needs to go even if it's just a wakeup call to the locker room that we aren't going to stand for mediocrity. You can't fire all the players and why wait til the Bz miss the playoffs to say enough...
:help:
 

BruinDust

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I believe Sweeney has a plan and Claude has bought into it.

What none of us knows is how ownership feels.

I believe (your right, no one really knows) that Jacob's SR. has a particular fondness for Claude Julien. Likely more than any coach this franchise has ever had.

I can't see how Julien survives two consecutive playoff DNQs unless he's in the very good graces of Jeremy Jacobs.
 

ODAAT

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With a healthy line up there should be no more Claude excuses.

agreed, but also with a healthy lineup, this team is average at best

I`m not one opposed to making a coaching change if it`s time, and it could very well be.

But I am one who is very skeptical that a change or different voice behind the bench of an average team will/would/could make much of a difference outside of the usual stuff we see with a coaching change which is the first few games the team responds well.

Bergy - 9 pts

DK- 19

Spooner- 12

Backes- 16

Even Marchand, with a respectable point total, only 9 goals

Not good enough, and I can`t be convinced a new coach would suddenly have the doors break open offensively

Toss in Hayes/Beleskey (while healthy) and Nash with virtually zero impact or contribution offensively.....again, not a Claude issue, it`s a talent issue for this fan

I think were seeing the final days of Julien here and for this fan, I`ll say goodbye with a huge debt of gratitude for one of the best B`s coaches I`ve seen here, and I pity the next guy who will have shoes to fill that I think are much bigger than most here believe
 

Blowfish

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agreed, but also with a healthy lineup, this team is average at best

I`m not one opposed to making a coaching change if it`s time, and it could very well be.

But I am one who is very skeptical that a change or different voice behind the bench of an average team will/would/could make much of a difference outside of the usual stuff we see with a coaching change which is the first few games the team responds well.

Bergy - 9 pts

DK- 19

Spooner- 12

Backes- 16

Even Marchand, with a respectable point total, only 9 goals

Not good enough, and I can`t be convinced a new coach would suddenly have the doors break open offensively

Toss in Hayes/Beleskey (while healthy) and Nash with virtually zero impact or contribution offensively.....again, not a Claude issue, it`s a talent issue for this fan

I think were seeing the final days of Julien here and for this fan, I`ll say goodbye with a huge debt of gratitude for one of the best B`s coaches I`ve seen here, and I pity the next guy who will have shoes to fill that I think are much bigger than most here believe

I hear what you're saying however I'm not one of those fans that believes it's lack of talent...not when you have Bergeron, Marchand, Pasta, Backes, Krejci in the line up. To me the lack of talent is grasping at straws. Many teams out there doing the same. Paying top end talent and filling roster with role players. Not an unusual thing in sports entertainment.

I do see injuries a the bigger issue...moving forward I see this team drastically improving. If not, it's a no brainer. There's an issue with coaching.

I do think the coaching can be better with a healthy line-up. i see success in the new year.
 

PatriceBergeronFan

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How often are teams with a .929 SV % goalie competing for the cellar? Not to mention one of the best offensive forwards in the game and one of the best defensive forward tandems in the game. And what should be one of the best center trios in the game. This isn't a terrible roster like some make it out to be. I think they'd be scoring more under almost any other NHL coach. I'm impressed with the job Claude has done with the defensive system of course. But more offense and less defense wouldn't drop us to the cellar.

More offense and less defense is last season.
 

ODAAT

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I hear what you're saying however I'm not one of those fans that believes it's lack of talent...not when you have Bergeron, Marchand, Pasta, Backes, Krejci in the line up. To me the lack of talent is grasping at straws. Many teams out there doing the same. Paying top end talent and filling roster with role players. Not an unusual thing in sports entertainment.

I do see injuries a the bigger issue...moving forward I see this team drastically improving. If not, it's a no brainer. There's an issue with coaching.

I do think the coaching can be better with a healthy line-up. i see success in the new year.

we shall see, I see a team who, if the players who are your "go to" aren`t producing, this team has little to nothing contributed by the bottom 6 and THAT, is a huge issue

The B`s teams of a few years ago had the bottom 6 picking up the slack when the top two lines couldn`t do it, this team doesn`t have that outside of the last two games which still wasn`t enough as the top 6 were all invisible

Bergy is hurt, has to be and while I like the group you mentioned, you still have a team with Hayes/Nash/Schaller(who I like) who aren`t exactly offensive gems

My biggest disappointment has to be DK yet again. I also think too many on this board are looking at the return of Vatrano as being far too important. I think it could help and no doubt he has an NHL shot, but I`m not yet convinced he`s at that stage of his young career to be a game changer


I stand by my assessment of this being an average team at best, until they show otherwise, I ain`t budging from that opinion:laugh:
 

BNHL

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we shall see, I see a team who, if the players who are your "go to" aren`t producing, this team has little to nothing contributed by the bottom 6 and THAT, is a huge issue

The B`s teams of a few years ago had the bottom 6 picking up the slack when the top two lines couldn`t do it, this team doesn`t have that outside of the last two games which still wasn`t enough as the top 6 were all invisible

Bergy is hurt, has to be and while I like the group you mentioned, you still have a team with Hayes/Nash/Schaller(who I like) who aren`t exactly offensive gems

My biggest disappointment has to be DK yet again. I also think too many on this board are looking at the return of Vatrano as being far too important. I think it could help and no doubt he has an NHL shot, but I`m not yet convinced he`s at that stage of his young career to be a game changer


I stand by my assessment of this being an average team at best, until they show otherwise, I ain`t budging from that opinion:laugh:

Maybe he's in decline!!
 

TheBigBadB

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Honest question here.How do you know that is what Claude wanted.? I watch him switching lines steady searching for offence.He had no say in the Seguin deal for example..Bet he never wanted that .He plays cards they deal him to best of his ability..ps Yes I am aware Chia moved Tyler not Don.Don gets a pass there.


You still need to score so he is trying to move players around to get a drop that still allows him to play solid defense. He knows he needs a little bit of offense.

Claude would prefer a player can do both defense and offense, who wouldn't? They don't grow on trees though. But if he had a choice between and offensive minded player with defensive lapses and one that plays solid defense he is going to choose the latter.
 

TheBigBadB

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Last year the B's were 5th in the league in scoring.

Julien was the coach then. He's the coach now. Same old system.

Only change of significances is Backes for Eriksson. Think perhaps the players themselves may be the problem?

No doubt there is some blame to players for offensive production, but you can definitely see the attention to detail to defense this year over last year. I believe they were trying to open it up more last year but it also caused more defensive lapses. This year they have tighten defensively and now offense is sputtering. It's a happy medium they are looking for and it takes both coach and players to adjust.
 

CharasLazyWrister

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Some posters have done a truly amazing (and rather preposterous) job of building a wall guarding Claude from excuses. Every time I log onto this board, I am rather shocked by how so many are convinced we have such a ******, no talent team that is somehow unlike so many other teams in the league.

Look around...with very few exceptions, all teams have their "go to" players, with role players filling out the bottom 6 (sometimes more) and their #1 and #2 defenseman with "scrubs" (according to the terminology used here) for the rest of the D.

No one is claiming we have an All-Star lineup. No one is claiming we have the most ideal, balanced lineup like in 2011. But the fact that Claude has been literally made exempt to criticism to some of you because we don't have a perfect lineup is rather ridiculous.

Over the last nine/ten years, I think we've all come to know Claude's style. He has his very big strong points as a coach, and he does have some weaknesses that have been questions even during his best seasons. If some of you believe he can't be held accountable for a third missing of the playoffs in a row, I'm not sure I can find common ground with you on much. This is professional sports. I understand missteps have been made beyond the coach, but you've got to make a change at some point.

Putting all the onus on the FO to build him the "perfect" team and exempting him from responsibility to make what he has successful is ********. I'm not sure how you can see the strategy that gets rolled out there in numerous situations and think "none of this is Claude/the coaching staff". Just does not make sense to me at all.

Question: have we ever won a faceoff and started a game off without immediately dumping the puck in? Please watch this in our games. To me, that really says a lot. The plan is to immediately play systematic no matter the situation. As strong as the team CAN look in its defensive zones, it doesn't look it plays on any sort of instinct in the offensive zone. It's all system, all the time. And it's a failing system at that.

I'm not sure how you can hear things like "we're creating shots", "we're creating scoring chances" out of Claude's mouth and not get enraged. There is a reason we take 40-50 shots a lot of games and still lose. It's because they're weak, ****** perimeter shots. They rarely put guys in the center of the ice (unless it's directly inf front of the net) and force the D to come out high. This is a trademark of almost every good team. Especially on the PP. Move a guy out high in the center of the ice to open up down low plays. Oh...but wait, we just want perimeter shots "with traffic" so don't bother doing any of that. We have a great system that can get us up to 50 shots a game. So why stop that? Why would we ever want to stop that???
 

LSCII

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While I understand the concept of a coach having a shelf life, if the team is worse with most any other coach, why would anyone advocate for moving on from Claude, at least right now?

Because what you're suggesting is a straw man argument that isn't truly something anyone can prove? You can say nobody else could get this team to be a mediocre, offensively inept squad, but is that really accurate? How can you honestly prove your supposition to be true without any change actually happening? It's virtually unknowable.
 

LSCII

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No doubt there is some blame to players for offensive production, but you can definitely see the attention to detail to defense this year over last year. I believe they were trying to open it up more last year but it also caused more defensive lapses. This year they have tighten defensively and now offense is sputtering. It's a happy medium they are looking for and it takes both coach and players to adjust.

I said the same thing a few weeks back and was killed over it. The usual nonsense and deniers saying the forwards weren't focused more on playing sound defensive hockey (despite what we all see in the games), even though Bob Beers repeatedly alluded to it as did Billy Jaffe.

I asked this question multiple times after the last game and none of the pro Claude bothered to muster an answer. Why did they look so different in the third than they did the first two periods?

Watching last game, you can see how they started taking risks in the third period to try and get back in the game because they had to. The d pinched when they had a chance. The forecheck was more aggressive and at times had all three forwards down low, or 2 forwards and a dman. They took chances. They also scored a couple of goals. It was fun to watch. But we all know they're going to go right back to dump and chase tonight and that one 3rd period will be the anomaly regarding their play this year. To me, maybe they try being aggressive on offense more regularly and not just when they're down 2 goals. It's really hard to play from behind all the time and be successful.
 

CharasLazyWrister

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Because what you're suggesting is a straw man argument that isn't truly something anyone can prove? You can say nobody else could get this team to be a mediocre, offensively inept squad, but is that really accurate? How can you honestly prove your supposition to be true without any change actually happening? It's virtually unknowable.

I am so glad I never actually put you on ignore. There is that ~ 10% of the time I totally agree with you. :laugh::laugh:

Well said.

This "no other coaches available" thing is ridiculous. Always is. Always will be. Now some people are saying "oh snatch up Gallant while he is available". So wait, all of the sudden he is automatically good enough to replace Claude? Why? How many in here even knew who Gallant was before he coached the Panthers? I'm not sure how people can realistically believe the scope for finding a NHL coach is so small and limited.

Whether or not Claude needs to be fired is a question by itself. The "is there anyone available?" is just about the dumbest follow up question one could ask.
 

CharasLazyWrister

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I said the same thing a few weeks back and was killed over it. The usual nonsense and deniers saying the forwards weren't focused more on playing sound defensive hockey (despite what we all see in the games), even though Bob Beers repeatedly alluded to it as did Billy Jaffe.

I asked this question multiple times after the last game and none of the pro Claude bothered to muster an answer. Why did they look so different in the third than they did the first two periods?

Watching last game, you can see how they started taking risks in the third period to try and get back in the game because they had to. The d pinched when they had a chance. The forecheck was more aggressive and at times had all three forwards down low, or 2 forwards and a dman. They took chances. They also scored a couple of goals. It was fun to watch. But we all know they're going to go right back to dump and chase tonight and that one 3rd period will be the anomaly regarding their play this year. To me, maybe they try being aggressive on offense more regularly and not just when they're down 2 goals. It's really hard to play from behind all the time and be successful.

Almost every instance of Claude being successful has been when he ran a strong forecheck. It seems to actually be a better strategy for preventing another team's breakouts and it certainly helps our offense a lot more. When we simply drop into the neutral zone trap for 60 minutes a night, we're losing games or winning by a goal.

Even "speed" teams like Detroit in 2014 were completely dominated by strong forechecking. I don't want to hear how we don't have the personnel for it now. We have players who can skate and have played hockey their entire lives. Therefore, we have the personnel.

This whole "we haven't tried that because we don't have the players" defeatist attitude kills me. The coach needs to adjust and not just coach the same goddamn system every night. Forecheck sometimes, trap others. Take offensive zone risks sometimes, play more defensive others. You've got to keep the other team guessing. Claude's biggest flaw is becoming stubborn and predictable.
 

Glove Malfunction

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Because what you're suggesting is a straw man argument that isn't truly something anyone can prove? You can say nobody else could get this team to be a mediocre, offensively inept squad, but is that really accurate? How can you honestly prove your supposition to be true without any change actually happening? It's virtually unknowable.

It's not a straw man argument at all. If you think that, then I think you should look up the definition. I used his assertion (which I happen to believe) that very few other coaches could get this collection of mediocre talent with a couple of real stars and get them to perform better. If you think that's inaccurate, that's fine. but calling it a strawman redefines what a strawman is.

And since you think it's inaccurate, why don't you give us that long list of available head coaches who could get more out of this group. I'll be waiting.
 

LSCII

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I am so glad I never actually put you on ignore. There is that ~ 10% of the time I totally agree with you. :laugh::laugh:

Well said.

This "no other coaches available" thing is ridiculous. Always is. Always will be. Now some people are saying "oh snatch up Gallant while he is available". So wait, all of the sudden he is automatically good enough to replace Claude? Why? How many in here even knew who Gallant was before he coached the Panthers? I'm not sure how people can realistically believe the scope for finding a NHL coach is so small and limited.

Whether or not Claude needs to be fired is a question by itself. The "is there anyone available?" is just about the dumbest follow up question one could ask.

HAHAHA! That's really funny... :laugh:

I have strong opinions, no question. And they're in direct conflict most of the time with a vast majority here. Personally, I see a lot of areas for this team to improve and I call it like I see it at that point in time. I actually respond more to people who don't agree with me because those discussions are far more interesting, IMO. And because of that, I don't block anyone for the most part.

The constant argument here that virtually nobody else could possibly get this team to miss the playoffs the last 2 years and be a bubble team this season is absurd. Of course there are other options. Suggesting there aren't any does nothing but show a bias and the ulterior agenda. They want Claude to stay, and that's fine. But saying nobody else could do his job the same is patently false.
 

Glove Malfunction

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I am so glad I never actually put you on ignore. There is that ~ 10% of the time I totally agree with you. :laugh::laugh:

Well said.

This "no other coaches available" thing is ridiculous. Always is. Always will be. Now some people are saying "oh snatch up Gallant while he is available". So wait, all of the sudden he is automatically good enough to replace Claude? Why? How many in here even knew who Gallant was before he coached the Panthers? I'm not sure how people can realistically believe the scope for finding a NHL coach is so small and limited.

Whether or not Claude needs to be fired is a question by itself. The "is there anyone available?" is just about the dumbest follow up question one could ask.

Why is it dumb? Who is available? Better yet, just like I asked Lonnie, who is available who will also get more out of this collection of players?
 

Glove Malfunction

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HAHAHA! That's really funny... :laugh:

I have strong opinions, no question. And they're in direct conflict most of the time with a vast majority here. Personally, I see a lot of areas for this team to improve and I call it like I see it at that point in time. I actually respond more to people who don't agree with me because those discussions are far more interesting, IMO. And because of that, I don't block anyone for the most part.

The constant argument here that virtually nobody else could possibly get this team to miss the playoffs the last 2 years and be a bubble team this season is absurd. Of course there are other options. Suggesting there aren't any does nothing but show a bias and the ulterior agenda. They want Claude to stay, and that's fine. But saying nobody else could do his job the same is patently false.

You keep saying there are all these coaches who can do better, yet you can't name one. Not even one.
 
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