Claude Giroux: Part "Fire, Air, Water, Earth"

[bobbythebrain]

Brayden Point, as a 20 year old rookie, played 11:50 min in his first 20 games; did not have a 5v5 goal; and had a 5v5 points/60 of 1.01.

Point is a top 15 forward in the game, but let's not pretend we don't understand the argument. Based on those 20 games, I can only imagine the same people here, transplanted through space and time, arguing Point is not NHL ready, he's not a difference making scorer, yada yada veteran presence. Frost isn't Point -- I feel confident in that claim. But in his first 20 games, Point wasn't "Point" either. That Frost can be a top 6 forward sooner than later, with some NHL time and the understanding his first 20 games is a minuscule noisy sample, is the same concept.

Bonus Round: What was your argument about Suzuki (who performed similarly in his first 20 games and his D+1 and D+2) being more NHL projectably ready because of draft position? Not apply to a 3rd rounder?

So how is waiting out Point to produce different from Patrick? Let's not act the situations were vastly different?

Flyers gave him the same opportunity...maybe more

 

[bobbythebrain]

You mean players can develop in the NHL? They don't have to wait until they're finished products to play? A feat they're supposed to accomplish without playing at NHL levels?

Jesse Puljujarvi couldn't develop in the NHL. He admitted his English was problematic waaaaaaaaaaaay after the MGMT stated as such.
Duncan Keith admitted his demotion was the best thing for his career.


Let's not pretend these rules don't apply to many a player

 

[Bigkarl]

What the hell is leadership anyways?

Seems to me it's basically yelling at people for poor performance and trying to get them off the club if they don't meet X, Y and Z. If Chris Pronger never went down and the Flyers didn't sign MacDonald and VLC I doubt this would ever be a topic.

I’m convinced that being considered a great leader/high character guy in the hockey world comes down to 1 of 2 things:

1. You were a good player on a team that won a cup
or
2. You’ve managed a 10+ year career as a role player

 

[Beef Invictus]

Jesse Puljujarvi couldn't develop in the NHL. He admitted his English was problematic waaaaaaaaaaaay after the MGMT stated as such.
Duncan Keith admitted his demotion was the best thing for his career.


Let's not pretend these rules don't apply to many a player

I'm responding sarcastically to Deadhead's repeated assertion that the NHL isnt a development league, despite damned near every player doing significant development in the NHL.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

It's interesting to look at their handling of Point. After his first 20 games as a 20-year old, he had 2g, 5a. Coincidentally, these are the same numbers Frost had as a 20-year old. But Tampa let Point play 48 more games that season, and he finished with 18g, 22a.

Wait was it the year when they dumped Filppula which might have bumped him in more of a scoring role?

 

[Starat327]

So how is waiting out Point to produce different from Patrick? Let's not act the situations were vastly different?

Flyers gave him the same opportunity...maybe more

Uhhh, the situations were vastly different. One player missed 2 seasons and 3 offseasons of development time during prime developmental years due to a chronic health issue.

The other....didn't?

 

[VladDrag]

So how is waiting out Point to produce different from Patrick? Let's not act the situations were vastly different?

Flyers gave him the same opportunity...maybe more

But it is kind of different, right? Specifically last year?

Patrick was coming off an entire year of a career threatening condition. No one knew is he was coming back or not. Obviously he wasn’t happy with the organization (not debating if he should be or not).

Point vs Patrick isn’t apples to apples. Not the same type of player, or the same skill level.

 

[ajgoal]

Brayden Point, as a 20 year old rookie, played 11:50 min in his first 20 games; did not have a 5v5 goal; and had a 5v5 points/60 of 1.01.

Point is a top 15 forward in the game, but let's not pretend we don't understand the argument. Based on those 20 games, I can only imagine the same people here, transplanted through space and time, arguing Point is not NHL ready, he's not a difference making scorer, yada yada veteran presence. Frost isn't Point -- I feel confident in that claim. But in his first 20 games, Point wasn't "Point" either. That Frost can be a top 6 forward sooner than later, with some NHL time and the understanding his first 20 games is a minuscule noisy sample, is the same concept.

Bonus Round: What was your argument about Suzuki (who performed similarly in his first 20 games and his D+1 and D+2) being more NHL projectably ready because of draft position? Not apply to a 3rd rounder?

Of course the intent is to compare the treatment of the players, not the players themselves. If the Flyers had treated Frost the way the Lightning treated Point, at the very least there'd be a good idea if he could handle the 3C duties that we can't give him because he hasn't proven capable of handling it.

 

[Starat327]

Of course the intent is to compare the treatment of the players, not the players themselves. If the Flyers had treated Frost the way the Lightning treated Point, at the very least there's be a good idea if he could handle the 3C duties that we can't give him because he hasn't proven capable of handling it.

Lol at thinking Frost = Gretzky.

 

[deadhead]

Brayden Point, as a 20 year old rookie, played 11:50 min in his first 20 games; did not have a 5v5 goal; and had a 5v5 points/60 of 1.01.

Point is a top 15 forward in the game, but let's not pretend we don't understand the argument. Based on those 20 games, I can only imagine the same people here, transplanted through space and time, arguing Point is not NHL ready, he's not a difference making scorer, yada yada veteran presence. Frost isn't Point -- I feel confident in that claim. But in his first 20 games, Point wasn't "Point" either. That Frost can be a top 6 forward sooner than later, with some NHL time and the understanding his first 20 games is a minuscule noisy sample, is the same concept.

Bonus Round: What was your argument about Suzuki (who performed similarly in his first 20 games and his D+1 and D+2) being more NHL projectably ready because of draft position? Not apply to a 3rd rounder?

Farabee struggled in his first 20 games, but anyone who watch Farabee and Frost knew Farabee was NHL ready at 19 and Frost wasn't.
When Frost went back to the AHL he didn't exactly dominate either for 40 games, he wasn't Giroux in the AHL, heads and shoulders above his peers (or Farabee, Allison, Laczynski, who immediately made it clear they didn't belong there).

The shame was Frost looked better last year in his brief cameo before he got hurt, he should be ready this season (if the shoulder is 100%). And the 3C job is his to lose, Laughton is better at LW or 4C (where he can focus on the forecheck, not being a playmaker).

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hasn't it been discussed to death that the AHL is a poor measure of Frost because he has little to work with to show his playmaking skills? And how observers of both leagues remarked how nice it was to see Frost in the NHL with actual talent?

 

[deadhead]

Hasn't it been discussed to death that the AHL is a poor measure of Frost because he has little to work with to show his playmaking skills? And how observers of both leagues remarked how nice it was to see Frost in the NHL with actual talent?

Excuses, excuses, excuses.
If that excuse holds for Frost, it certainly holds for Risto in Buffalo, doesn't it?

Laczynski in his short AHL stint didn't seem handicapped by his linemates?
13g CF 58.49%, CFrel +12.01, HDCF 70.00%, HDCFrel +18.51
Frost
CF 51.12%, CFrel +4.10, HDCF 47.83%, HDCFrel +4.89

 

[Beef Invictus]

Excuses, excuses, excuses.
If that excuse holds for Frost, it certainly holds for Risto in Buffalo, doesn't it?

Laczynski in his short AHL stint didn't seem handicapped by his linemates?
13g CF 58.49%, CFrel +12.01, HDCF 70.00%, HDCFrel +18.51
Frost
CF 51.12%, CFrel +4.10, HDCF 47.83%, HDCFrel +4.89

Laczynski isn't the same as Frost, is he?

Ristolainen played in the AHL? When? His rookie year? Can you provide any proof that this defenseman is comparable to a playmaking center, or that their situations were the same? Care to explain how Risto tends to be the worst among his peers on his own team and Frost isn't? Terrible comparison.

These are terrible rebuttals. And I didn't offer a single excuse, either. Only an explanation proffered by several with knowledge. Just a huge whiff here.

 

[deadhead]

Laczynski isn't the same as Frost, is he?

Exactly. You make my point.

Only a few players can make the jump from the CHL to the NHL successfully. Because it's a big jump.
A lot of SHL players need a stint in the AHL to acclimate to NA hockey (more physical, narrower ice, different angles).

College players depend, I'd say 2 years of college = 1 year of AHL, college players practice more, play much less but also over 2 years physically mature more, so it's not an exact match. College seniors should be close to NHL ready.

So Frost not being ready at 20 isn't the end of the world, if he's not ready this year, he's skirting "flop territory."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Exactly. You make my point.

Only a few players can make the jump from the CHL to the NHL successfully. Because it's a big jump.
A lot of SHL players need a stint in the AHL to acclimate to NA hockey (more physical, narrower ice, different angles).

College players depend, I'd say 2 years of college = 1 year of AHL, college players practice more, play much less but also over 2 years physically mature more, so it's not an exact match. College seniors should be close to NHL ready.

So Frost not being ready at 20 isn't the end of the world, if he's not ready this year, he's skirting "flop territory."

He was ready in his first stint. He's been ready.

I have no idea how I made your point for you. They're completely different players and situations. You brought him up, I asked how he matters, and you respond that I proved your point? What?

 

[Magua]

Farabee struggled in his first 20 games, but anyone who watch Farabee and Frost knew Farabee was NHL ready at 19 and Frost wasn't.
When Frost went back to the AHL he didn't exactly dominate either for 40 games, he wasn't Giroux in the AHL, heads and shoulders above his peers (or Farabee, Allison, Laczynski, who immediately made it clear they didn't belong there).

Farabee performed quite poorly as a rookie. Normal poorly: flashes, struggles, visible development. Oddly enough, he persevered. It’s just hindsight or double standards saying his struggles didn’t mean he wasn’t NHL ready.

As for Frost, I don’t know what you want out of a rookie in the AHL if leading his team in points/game is not enough. He doesn’t have to be Giroux to be successful. That’s a made up goal post.

Mark Stone’s 38 points in 54 games as an AHL 20 year old doesn’t seem overly impressive…..until you realize he led his team. Cal O’Reilly had 67 points in 67 games for Iowa the season before Frost; on LHV that year, he had 29 points in 52 games. Greg Carey on LHV had 61 points in 74 games, before dropping to 30 points in 67 games the year Frost showed up. It’s almost like context is needed. Frost significantly outproduced them.

 

[deadhead]

Because Laczynski WAS NHL ready, he showed that by dominating AHL play, putting up ridiculous metrics.

Frost wasn't ready at 20 which was obvious watching him.
Last year we never got a chance to find out.
This year, if Frost doesn't play at a high level there has to be some doubt about his future. Given teh quality of wings he'll have, he should put up close to 40 ES points if he's really a top six candidate, he'll have better line mates than many 2Cs around the league.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Deady, its also worth pointing our that your "x player isn't ready" takes don't hold an ounce of credibility anymore because they have nothing to do with the players' readiness, but rather upon whether the team uses them or not. It has nothing to do with the actual player and where their development is, and everything to do with defending a management group that churns out nothing but failure and hasn't earned any level of defense, much less the level you provide.

We could have the most physically advanced prospect in hockey history. You could spend months penciling him into lineups due to how ready he is. The moment the team starts an inferior veteran ahead of him, you do a 180 and proclaim he wasn't ready anyway. And then you'll keep insisting he isn't ready, no matter what evidence exists, until the team begins using him in a significant role.

You did this with Sanheim and TK, as two fairly ridiculous examples. You are in the middle of doing it with York, too. And you did it with Frost.

 

[deadhead]

Farabee performed quite poorly as a rookie. Oddly enough, he persevered. It’s just hindsight or double standards saying his struggles didn’t meant he was NHL ready.

As for Frost, I don’t know what you want out of a rookie in the AHL if leading his team in points/game is not enough. He doesn’t have to be Giroux to be successful. Mark Stone’s 38 points in 54 games doesn’t seem overly impressive until you realize he led his team. Cal O’Reilly had 67 points in 67 games for Iowa the season before; on LHV, he had 29 points in 52 games. Greg Carey on LHV at 61 points in 74 games. He dropped to 30 points in 67 games the year Frost showed up. It’s almost like context is needed.

First, I ignore PP points in the AHL, you see lots of marginal AHL vets put up great pp scoring numbers.
The number to look at is ES scoring, but even then, as you point out, that can be heavily influenced by quality of linemates.
Unfortunately, it's hard to get metrics for players other than the Phantoms.

 

[Magua]

We should ignore PP points for a player who projects as a major PP weapon. All those same LHV players got the same PP time anyway. I’m going to tap out of this one now.

I really don’t see why we can’t find more common ground. Nothing I’m saying is particularly controversial.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We should ignore PP points for a player who projects as a major PP weapon. All those same LHV players got the same PP time anyway. I’m going to tap out of this one now.

It's very vital that we ignore anything that can cast doubt onto any decision the team's management and coaches have made. We can never question them. We must only justify and love all they do. They've earned that level of deference with the massive success we've seen in the last decade.

 

[Starat327]

Christ this is exhausting to read.

 

[deadhead]

No, PP scoring doesn't translate to the next level the same as ES scoring.
0.5 PP/game seems to be around the threshold, that would be around 2.0 pp/60 for 15 minutes a game.

2018-19:
Varone 22g, 14 points (14 PP points): 0.64
Carey 74g, 31 points (but 30 PP points): 0.42
Connor 72g, 28 points (23 PP points): 0.39
NAK 54g, 26 points: 0.48
Kase 40g, 17 points: 0.43
Vorobyev 42g, 17 points: 0.40
MV 67g, 26 points: 0.39
Bunnaman 62g, 21 points: 0.34
Twarysnski 69g, 20 points: 0.29
2019-20:
Criscuolo 40g, 22 points: 0.55
Vorobyev 45g, 21 points: 0.47
Frost 41g, 19 points: 0.46
O'Reilly 52g, 20 points: 0.38
Kase 51g, 19 points: 0.37
Ratcliffe 53g, 11 points: 0.21
Rubtsov 42g, 8 points: 0.19
2020-21:
Allison 10g, 7 points: 0.70
Laczynski 14g, 8 points: 0.57
Wisdom 28g, 12 points: 0.43
Foerster 24g, 10 points: 0.42
Kase 19g, 7 points: 0.37
Sandin 26g, 7 points: 0.27
Ratcliffe 22g, 6 points: 0.27
Willman 30g, 5 points: 0.17

 

[deadhead]

Real good article by O'Conner showing how Giroux has evolved the last few years into a complete player who adjusted to his decline in skill by becoming a smarter player. I think AV reducing his ice time by a couple minutes a night has also helped him with this transition.

Still one of the Flyers' best, Claude Giroux enters the last year of contract with decisions to make

I seriously doubt Giroux is going anywhere, it's not like he's looking at a 4-5 year rebuild here, and I think he wants to be a "Flyer for life."
And Fletcher will do what it takes to keep him here.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

If Giroux decides to leave to look for his Stanley Cup…I just hope the Flyers get good value back in return!
Wonder what we could FLETCH?