Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[JackSlater]

1. f*** off Bob Backlund. My Olympic Hero and Eurocontinental champion does not need your assistance ever

2a This was a long time ago chronologically during my AE watch through but I'm really starting to wonder if WWF wasn't serious about pushing Billy Gunn during his feud with The Rock post KOTR and he just didn't get over enough at the time.

2b I genuinely wonder if the reunification of DX didn't coincide with a last ditch effort to get him over but his injury derailed it. Might as well be a rule in my book that stables are made solely for the purpose of getting a new, potentially great talent over see: Rock and the nation, HHH and DX, Orton/Batista in Evolution -You get the point


It's a shame because I genuinely enjoy his matches

I believe that WWE was serious but as always impatient, plus better guys came along. Rock famously murdered Gunn in a promo during that push, the rumour was that Austin wanted no part of working with him and so that was a big issue, and then while he was out with an injury you had Jericho, Angle, Benoit and company join the federation.

Also Road Dogg was always the superior New Age Outlaw and anyone who knows anything knows it.

 

[These Are The Days]

I believe that WWE was serious but as always impatient, plus better guys came along. Rock famously murdered Gunn in a promo during that push, the rumour was that Austin wanted no part of working with him and so that was a big issue, and then while he was out with an injury you had Jericho, Angle, Benoit and company join the federation.

Also Road Dogg was always the superior New Age Outlaw and anyone who knows anything knows it.

Roadie is an interesting case compared to Billy because he's a case study of the following

1. You get back what you put into it - He lived and died by "Keep It Simple Stupid" especially on the mic and people loved "singing with the Dogg" but unfortunately, bleeding charisma is all he was really known for and that opening promo was as far as he ever got. The Dogg blew his load early in his career sadly and never had anything else to give.

2. Your in ring performance needs to match your mic performance - NOTHING matched Roadie's mic performance and unless he was as good as Rock in the ring.... that wasn't gonna happen. Billy was afforded the grace of being the (very believable) heavy hitter of the duo and the quiet one and didn't struggle as much in this regard

3. Don't make heat your booking doesn't back up - Road Dogg was easily 3rd in the company behind Austin and Rock on the mic but none of their push/booking. Roadie was "Tag Team fo' Lyfe!" in every way he was booked. In Billy's push he started it off perfectly by leaving DX during the split. But had no signature win post KOTR and any one's he did get were those greasy, half assed heel wins that just piss people off. Rock on the other hand at least had that amazing cage match with Mankind and Shamrock. If Stone Cold didn't wanna work with him then his push was dead before it started.

Roadie was the better Outlaw but it was because he was more fun. Billy on the other hand had the greater potential because he was tall, blonde, good looking in glasses, he's got lips on his tights, a very solid finisher, was probably the WWF's best "seller" in the ring and they call him "Mr. Ass" it doesn't get any better than that. The guy is a poor man's Shawn Michaels who needs a little work on the mic.

But if Austin wasn't gonna work with him like you say then that brings me to #4

4. You gotta be in good with the boys - No explanation needed. Roadie and Billy's favor went as far as DX/The Clique did and it was never gonna be enough

 

[JackSlater]

Roadie is an interesting case compared to Billy because he's a case study of the following

1. You get back what you put into it - He lived and died by "Keep It Simple Stupid" especially on the mic and people loved "singing with the Dogg" but unfortunately, bleeding charisma is all he was really known for and that opening promo was as far as he ever got. The Dogg blew his load early in his career sadly and never had anything else to give.

2. Your in ring performance needs to match your mic performance - NOTHING matched Roadie's mic performance and unless he was as good as Rock in the ring.... that wasn't gonna happen. Billy was afforded the grace of being the (very believable) heavy hitter of the duo and the quiet one and didn't struggle as much in this regard

3. Don't make heat your booking doesn't back up - Road Dogg was easily 3rd in the company behind Austin and Rock on the mic but none of their push/booking. Roadie was "Tag Team fo' Lyfe!" in every way he was booked. In Billy's push he started it off perfectly by leaving DX during the split. But had no signature win post KOTR and any one's he did get were those greasy, half assed heel wins that just piss people off. Rock on the other hand at least had that amazing cage match with Mankind and Shamrock. If Stone Cold didn't wanna work with him then his push was dead before it started.

Roadie was the better Outlaw but it was because he was more fun. Billy on the other hand had the greater potential because he was tall, blonde, good looking in glasses, he's got lips on his tights, a very solid finisher, was probably the WWF's best "seller" in the ring and they call him "Mr. Ass" it doesn't get any better than that. The guy is a poor man's Shawn Michaels who needs a little work on the mic.

But if Austin wasn't gonna work with him like you say then that brings me to #4

4. You gotta be in good with the boys - No explanation needed. Roadie and Billy's favor went as far as DX/The Clique did and it was never gonna be enough

To be up front - I'm a Road Dogg fan. But let's be real here, he had three moves and they were punch, talking on the mic, and wiggling his legs. I'd still take him 10 times out of 10 before Billy Gunn though. I think of wrestling in a fairly similar way as I do basketball, where you'd probably rather have a guy with one exceptional skill who is weak at everything else than a guy who is merely solid in all areas. Road Dogg's charisma alone is more valuable than Gunn being just adequate all around.

I'd call Gunn a guy whose ceiling was very clearly shown given how many times WWF/WWE tried to push him and where it always tapped out. He's acceptable in a tag team or a low end mid carder. He'll never be the better wrestler in a good match and he'll never have the charisma to get himself way over with fans. To me Road Dogg is a guy who can elevate a tag team, particularly if the other guy can do the heavy lifting in the ring, and theoretically a good mid carder if he gets a decent push based on charisma alone. As you noted though, Road Dogg never really got a decent push.

 

[These Are The Days]

To be up front - I'm a Road Dogg fan. But let's be real here, he had three moves and they were punch, talking on the mic, and wiggling his legs. I'd still take him 10 times out of 10 before Billy Gunn though. I think of wrestling in a fairly similar way as I do basketball, where you'd probably rather have a guy with one exceptional skill who is weak at everything else than a guy who is merely solid in all areas. Road Dogg's charisma alone is more valuable than Gunn being just adequate all around.

I'd call Gunn a guy whose ceiling was very clearly shown given how many times WWF/WWE tried to push him and where it always tapped out. He's acceptable in a tag team or a low end mid carder. He'll never be the better wrestler in a good match and he'll never have the charisma to get himself way over with fans. To me Road Dogg is a guy who can elevate a tag team, particularly if the other guy can do the heavy lifting in the ring, and theoretically a good mid carder if he gets a decent push based on charisma alone. As you noted though, Road Dogg never really got a decent push.

Well taking Road Dogg 10/10 is gonna be the right move 10/10 because that 3rd behind Austin/Rock on the mic is by about a centimeter and I'm pretty sure he could've proved on par with Austin (no one touches Rock's extemporaneous speaking skills) if he had 5 minutes to burn it down and his own catchphrase. Guy just oozes charisma from every pore. Your assessment of him is otherwise correct. His one great trick was the best of the night if Rock or Austin didn't have a promo

Billy? I can see WHY they wanted to push him but at no point during his pushes did I see ways for him to get over. Getting punked by Rock and never beating anyone in a main event on Raw is destined for failure

 

[Voight]

Austin, Hogan, Hart, Rock, Cena

 

[alko]

Funny story about Bret Hart and Rick Flair:

BRET HART REVEALS HOW HE MADE RIC FLAIR STOP DOING HIS HARD-HITTING CHOPS

During a recent appearance on Prime Time With Sean Mooney podcast, two time WWE Hall of Famer Bret Hart talked about facing “The Nature Boy” Ric Flair and how he made Flair stop doing his hard-hitting chops.
Below is what The Hitman said:
“I can remember Ric Flair used to like chopping me all the time. And they hurt – you get these blisters on your chest and a hand print on your chest for like three days.
That’s what they do to the rookies, they chop ya, keep chopping ya – they think it’s a badge of honor or something. Which is probably why everyone in the building goes ‘Wooooo’ ya know? I remember telling him I said ‘Ric no more chops.’
But he said ‘it’s part of my thing, I always do a chop, people expect it.’ I said ‘if you do a chop, I got a move I do. You go ahead and chop me, give me a big chop. I’ll sell it, I’ll give you my whole chest and everything. And then I’ll look at you – and I’ll punch you right in the mouth as hard as I can.’
And I remember Ric looked at me and said ‘are you kidding?’ I said ‘no I’m not; I’ll punch you right in the nose as hard as I can.’ We never did chops after that.”

 

[CDJ]

Brett’s got some dynamite in his hands, doesn’t shock me that would eliminate the chops lol

 

[Brodeur]

Not sure what prompted me to look it up, but a couple days ago I remembered how I had to give up my ticket for an episode of Raw in order to attend Game 4 of the Stanley Cup Final. I got a decent laugh when I looked up what happened on that show: June 2, 2003 Monday Night RAW results

- Ivory, Trish Stratus & Jacqueline defeated Jazz, Molly Holly & Victoria (w/ Theodore Long) (3:39)
- Scott Steiner (w/ Stacy Keibler) defeated Steven Richards (1:32)
- Rene Dupree (w/ Sylvain Grenier) defeated Kane (w/ Rob Van Dam) (2:12)
- Booker T & Goldust defeated Chris Jericho & Christian (8:20)
- Evolution (Randy Orton, Ric Flair & Triple H) defeated Kevin Nash, Shawn Michaels & The Hurricane (8:18)

Stone Cold, Goldberg, Rock, Jericho, Christian, and Eric Bischoff with other segments as well. Definitely didn't expect to see The Hurricane in the main event.

 

[canucksfan]

Came across this Austin promo wow could he cut a damn promo. Early SCSA was so intense.

 

[JackSlater]

Came across this Austin promo wow could he cut a damn promo. Early SCSA was so intense.

I got very tired of Austin but his 1996-1997 stuff is tremendous. All time great intensity and everything fits so well. Even the promos that are largely forgotten hold up really well.

 

[BruinDust]

I got very tired of Austin but his 1996-1997 stuff is tremendous. All time great intensity and everything fits so well. Even the promos that are largely forgotten hold up really well.

One of my favorite Austin promos from that era. When he says he's the rightful WWF champ at the 3:05 mark, the intensity in his voice you'd swear he really believes it.



It's probably gone now but at one point somone had posted on Youtube the original VHS cut of the first Austin tape (Cause Stone Cold Said So) they put out capturing his run from 1996 to mid 1997. Narrated and hosted by Austin himself in full heel mode. Just absolute gold.

 

[JackSlater]

One of my favorite Austin promos from that era. When he says he's the rightful WWF champ at the 3:05 mark, the intensity in his voice you'd swear he really believes it.



It's probably gone now but at one point somone had posted on Youtube the original VHS cut of the first Austin tape (Cause Stone Cold Said So) they put out capturing his run from 1996 to mid 1997. Narrated and hosted by Austin himself in full heel mode. Just absolute gold.

I really like that one as well. The ending when he calls McMahon a jackass always cracks me up due to the weird way he gets there. I remember that Austin had a fully in gimmick narration of his early WWF run as well. People talk about babyface fire but Austin had heel fire... which of course translated into babyface fire shortly after.

 

[rinaldo]

Kevin Sullivan has never got his due. His early 80s stuff was excellent. Played his character very well. Buzz sawyer is another

 

[EpochLink]

This segment was all time f***ing great.
Jim Ross in his absolute zone, going batshit.
Lawler going all hype mode.

 

[Megahab]

Random post but I just read there have only been 2 cage matches (not including HIAC) in WrestleMania history. Hogan-Bundy at WM2 and Strowman-Shane at WM37. I found this kind of crazy.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Random post but I just read there have only been 2 cage matches (not including HIAC) in WrestleMania history. Hogan-Bundy at WM2 and Strowman-Shane at WM37. I found this kind of crazy.

After those two there should never be another

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

It's probably gone now but at one point somone had posted on Youtube the original VHS cut of the first Austin tape (Cause Stone Cold Said So) they put out capturing his run from 1996 to mid 1997. Narrated and hosted by Austin himself in full heel mode. Just absolute gold.

You can watch the original uncut VHS here…

 

[Bondurant]

Subscribed to The Cock last month. Binging some of the best wrestling programming ever produced: ECW Hardcore TV. Currently at the end of '95. Superstar Steve Austin is feuding with The Sandman and Mikey Whipwreck. Early '93 is a tough slog. By the end of '93 Paul E has full control. The roster improves, the production value improves and Joey Styles changes the game.

 

[These Are The Days]

Took a very, VERY long break from my WWF Attitude Era journey. Stopped at about 2-3 weeks before Mania 2000 and was absolutely burned the hell out from watching Haitch and Steph parade their ass every night and "lol DX wins" may as well being law. I could guess things hours before they happened.

I always knew there was a fatal 4 way at Mania 2000 but had no idea how it ended and what happened in the year after. I spent years avoiding spoilers of the 90's-early 2000's matches I didn't watch because I knew one day I'd try to see it all. I took a guess some bullshit would happen and Haitch would retain yet again at Mania 2000. And it was Vince screwing Rock. All that build up for something you could've just done on Raw.

I called it. The lengths this company went to for "gotcha" moments is unparalleled in anything I've ever seen.

 

[These Are The Days]

Gonna predict a Big Show face turn next because why the hell not he changes every week.

 

[These Are The Days]

Okay so I was close. What the actual hell is this with Show making a fool of himself impersonating his competition every week? Let me come out and say it: no one..... NO ONE went along with more crap for the sake of business than Paul Wight




Edited many hours after the fact to spare another post: I don't think I've watched any of Eddie's matches but a few times since he died. Seeing him again so full of life like this with Chyna at his side, rolling in with roses and low-riders brings a joy my heart hasn't felt in some time.

RIP you freaking legend. Watching you screw over your opponents in every imaginable way never gets old because you did it in a way that was always fun and funny

 

[These Are The Days]

lmfao. Jericho gets a match with HHH for the WWF Championship. I sit there and say "There's no way in hell he wins" and he actually wins. I sit there amused WWF booking lets such a thing happen. My next response is "There is no way in hell this holds up. This is getting reversed or HHH wins it back tonight with 5 dudes helping out and 5 acts of God." and behold, the next segment is HHH coming out losing his shit demanding Earl Hebner reverses his decision based on a fast count and fires him.

2006 was my last "full time" year as a fan with the next 2 years seeing me follow as much as my schedule allowed. Year 2000 Attitude Era might actually be worse because of how predictable it is. And 2006 was the year of "Vince McMahon vs God" and Spirit Squad




Edit: So Austin is gonna be at Backlash eh? I knew he'd be coming back eventually. It's nice to actually be surprised. At last, the war of the Golden Shovels is finally at hand. Fully expecting chaos that sees the Rock somehow lose the affair. This opens the door for Lord Shovel himself Austin prevailing at some point to win back the title from HHH. But of course maybe I'm wrong

 

[Bondurant]

 

[JackSlater]

lmfao. Jericho gets a match with HHH for the WWF Championship. I sit there and say "There's no way in hell he wins" and he actually wins. I sit there amused WWF booking lets such a thing happen. My next response is "There is no way in hell this holds up. This is getting reversed or HHH wins it back tonight with 5 dudes helping out and 5 acts of God." and behold, the next segment is HHH coming out losing his shit demanding Earl Hebner reverses his decision based on a fast count and fires him.

2006 was my last "full time" year as a fan with the next 2 years seeing me follow as much as my schedule allowed. Year 2000 Attitude Era might actually be worse because of how predictable it is. And 2006 was the year of "Vince McMahon vs God" and Spirit Squad




Edit: So Austin is gonna be at Backlash eh? I knew he'd be coming back eventually. It's nice to actually be surprised. At last, the war of the Golden Shovels is finally at hand. Fully expecting chaos that sees the Rock somehow lose the affair. This opens the door for Lord Shovel himself Austin prevailing at some point to win back the title from HHH. But of course maybe I'm wrong

It's good that some people at least keep track of this HHH crap. Over time it gets slowly forgotten, revised, or twisted. The guy was a drain on the company even when near his peak in ring.

Don't often hear much about that territory other than how The Sheik basically drained the life out of it over his years on top.

 

[These Are The Days]

It's good that some people at least keep track of this HHH crap. Over time it gets slowly forgotten, revised, or twisted. The guy was a drain on the company even when near his peak in ring.



Don't often hear much about that territory other than how The Sheik basically drained the life out of it over his years on top.

Well I never got to watch the Attitude Era when it happened so I started my journey in March 1997 and have made it to May 2000. I'm glad I was wrong about Backlash. Rock wins. But of course it took Austin to do it.


I actually love HHH as a heel. He's exactly how I'd draw one up. The problem is you don't book a heel champion like this from night after SummerSlam '99 til after Mania 2000. That is just way too long and way too many screw jobs for fans to wait for a payoff. Mick Foley's career basically died to put HHH over. By Royal Rumble 2000 I burned out because I also was certain (and correctly guessed) of more "LOL GOTCHA!!" from Vince because ya know "predictable" and wasn't ready to watch months of potentially wasted programming.

I never thought the company would top Austin '98 in a champs dumb luck but here we are