Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[These Are The Days]

On Survivor Series 1999 and genuinely have no idea what's gonna happen now. Waiting for a McMahon swerve because I can't fathom that family doing anything babyface for this long. And I'm stopping in the middle of the Survivor Series match with the Hardys/Edge Christian vs Too Cool/Hollys


JR and King are f***ing killing me man. Brian Christopher puts his goddamn goggles on for a move that goes wrong and JR just won't stop ripping him over it and King says shit like "I'm more interested where they play football."

You guys...... I'm in tears right now. I don't make it tell my fans I love them and seeing the Stanley Cup won in person was the pinnacle of my sports career

 

[These Are The Days]

Just watching AWA Super Sunday 1983 while working today and in the co-main event Hogan took on Nick Bockwinkle in a decent match between the wily vet and the hot new up and comer, Hogan was way over with the crowd and they did the old finish of reversing the Hogan win into a DQ giving the belt back to Bockwinkle. We have all heard the story of how Verne refusing to put the belt on Hogan due to him wanting a "good wrestler" as champ and also Verne pissed Hogan off by wanting a cut of his Japan money or something.

Watching this makes me wonder, had Verne not had his head up his ass, would we have pro wrestling as we know it? Would Vince and WWF/E been as successful if Hogan stayed with Verne as his top guy?

Hogan would surface in WWF just 9 months after Super Sunday, which the announcers were billing as the largest indoor wrestling show ever at that point, if Hogan stays in AWA does Hulkamania ever happen?

Sure, Hogan could have always jumped a year or two later but would it have still worked out so well for Vince? Besides Hogan, this card had Mean Gene, Bobby Heenan, Ken Patera, Jesse Ventura, Jim Brunzell, and a young "Beefcake" by the name of Dizzy Ed Boulder, who would all be joining Hogan in the Northeast before too long.

So, did Vince & Hulk create the wrestling boom or did Verne?

Hogan made the boom on his own no doubt. He would've succeeded anywhere. You had a guy everyone knew from the Rocky movie operating under the kayfabe of an irresistible babyface. Right guy, right place, right time

 

[The don godfather]

Nobody can beat Barry O . My all time favorite.

 

[End of Line]

Was watching a bunch of old Nitro episodes yesterday while nursing a hangover and their product at that time is leaps and bounds over what’s being produced today. Last episode I watched was the June 9th 1997 episode and I was legit excited watching it bc I had no idea wtf was going to happen. Then to have Sting drop in from the rafters was the cherry on top.

Also, rewatching Goldberg and now that I’m older seeing how awful he was in the ring, those memories don’t look feel so fond looking back lol

 

[These Are The Days]

In an otherwise great product, DX circa Fall 1999 is legitimately unwatchable. Any given match I sit there and say "Alright so are they pulling it off this time?" and when it inevitably happens I say "but of course." Week after week after week. Jeff Hardy escapes a steel cage in a tag title match vs the Outlaws. I knew within seconds X-Pac or Haitch was gonna storm out, throw his ass back in and somehow one of the Outlaws would escape. And wouldn't you know that is exactly what happened. I'm at the point where I'm ready to skip their segments because it's not only the worst booking I've ever seen (and I thought JBL and heel Lesnar 2003 was bad) it's arguably the most predictable. I'm borderline surprised people just don't start throwing shit into the ring by now because they're paying money to see whatever the hell this is supposed to be.

I'm gonna take a wild guess that Evolution wasn't much better.

This is basically "lol Roman wins" in heel form and I sit there and say "Shit like this what probably killed WCW"

 

[JackSlater]

Just watching AWA Super Sunday 1983 while working today and in the co-main event Hogan took on Nick Bockwinkle in a decent match between the wily vet and the hot new up and comer, Hogan was way over with the crowd and they did the old finish of reversing the Hogan win into a DQ giving the belt back to Bockwinkle. We have all heard the story of how Verne refusing to put the belt on Hogan due to him wanting a "good wrestler" as champ and also Verne pissed Hogan off by wanting a cut of his Japan money or something.

Watching this makes me wonder, had Verne not had his head up his ass, would we have pro wrestling as we know it? Would Vince and WWF/E been as successful if Hogan stayed with Verne as his top guy?

Hogan would surface in WWF just 9 months after Super Sunday, which the announcers were billing as the largest indoor wrestling show ever at that point, if Hogan stays in AWA does Hulkamania ever happen?

Sure, Hogan could have always jumped a year or two later but would it have still worked out so well for Vince? Besides Hogan, this card had Mean Gene, Bobby Heenan, Ken Patera, Jesse Ventura, Jim Brunzell, and a young "Beefcake" by the name of Dizzy Ed Boulder, who would all be joining Hogan in the Northeast before too long.

So, did Vince & Hulk create the wrestling boom or did Verne?

As far as I've heard, and I may be wrong here, the AWA was willing to push Hogan to the moon. He was already the star attraction without the belt, but he wanted to keep doing his lucrative NJPW runs that significantly cut into his schedule. Gagne didn't have the money in that territory to buy al of Hogan's time. McMahon, controlling the wealthy and densely populated upper northeast, did have the money to get Hogan exclusively and push him to the moon.

It is interesting to consider though if Hogan did hang around in the AWA by the time the AWA had its ESPN deal. I like some AWA stuff from that time but it wouldn't have been good for wrestling as a whole. Gagne had pretty much all the pieces he needed but he didn't have the vision or resources to do what McMahon did.

In an otherwise great product, DX circa Fall 1999 is legitimately unwatchable. Any given match I sit there and say "Alright so are they pulling it off this time?" and when it inevitably happens I say "but of course." Week after week after week. Jeff Hardy escapes a steel cage in a tag title match vs the Outlaws. I knew within seconds X-Pac or Haitch was gonna storm out, throw his ass back in and somehow one of the Outlaws would escape. And wouldn't you know that is exactly what happened. I'm at the point where I'm ready to skip their segments because it's not only the worst booking I've ever seen (and I thought JBL and heel Lesnar 2003 was bad) it's arguably the most predictable. I'm borderline surprised people just don't start throwing shit into the ring by now because they're paying money to see whatever the hell this is supposed to be.

I'm gonna take a wild guess that Evolution wasn't much better.

This is basically "lol Roman wins" in heel form and I sit there and say "Shit like this what probably killed WCW"

I kind of forgot about that part of that era. Sort of the seeds of Tri choking the life out of angles indirectly.

I begrudgingly have to admit that Evolution was mostly solid though, even if I dislike 3/4 of the participants. It helps a lot that it didn't last all that long.

 

[The don godfather]

Another underrated one of my favorite wrestlers was Rick the model martel he pissed everyone off.

 

[These Are The Days]

As far as I've heard, and I may be wrong here, the AWA was willing to push Hogan to the moon. He was already the star attraction without the belt, but he wanted to keep doing his lucrative NJPW runs that significantly cut into his schedule. Gagne didn't have the money in that territory to buy al of Hogan's time. McMahon, controlling the wealthy and densely populated upper northeast, did have the money to get Hogan exclusively and push him to the moon.

It is interesting to consider though if Hogan did hang around in the AWA by the time the AWA had its ESPN deal. I like some AWA stuff from that time but it wouldn't have been good for wrestling as a whole. Gagne had pretty much all the pieces he needed but he didn't have the vision or resources to do what McMahon did.



I kind of forgot about that part of that era. Sort of the seeds of Tri choking the life out of angles indirectly.

I begrudgingly have to admit that Evolution was mostly solid though, even if I dislike 3/4 of the participants. It helps a lot that it didn't last all that long.

I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't weeks worth of cheap heat grabs. I love a good heel, I never get off Lesnar's jock after almost 20 years because when he first broke in he was just so damn good. A legitimate monster who went over clean on almost everyone. Angle and HBK were very good at it too. This is just 3/4 guys choosing their spots. Make no mistake. It's great the first few times. Then after like 10 times you're not even booing. You're skipping entire matches

 

[These Are The Days]

Little history blurb: JR really loves saying "Mr. Ass"

 

[Megahab]

Another underrated one of my favorite wrestlers was Rick the model martel he pissed everyone off.

A regular topic of discussion is debating who were the best guys to never win the WWF World title but I think Martel is one of the best to never even win the IC or World title. Probably behind DiBiase and Jake Roberts off the top of my head.

 

[JackSlater]

Another underrated one of my favorite wrestlers was Rick the model martel he pissed everyone off.

Rick Martel was awesome. I developed an appreciation for some of his AWA stuff after the fact but my favourite is his WWF work as The Model. Great character work and I love the vignettes.



Would be nice to have those in better quality. It would also be nice to see more gimmick vignettes again in general, those were some of the best things about the WWF.

 

[koyvoo]

Rick Martel was awesome. I developed an appreciation for some of his AWA stuff after the fact but my favourite is his WWF work as The Model. Great character work and I love the vignettes.



Would be nice to have those in better quality. It would also be nice to see more gimmick vignettes again in general, those were some of the best things about the WWF.

Rick "The Model" Martel promotes his cologne "Arrogance": Saturday Night's Main Event, April 28, 1990

 

[These Are The Days]

Is the McMahon/Helmsley Era what WCW did with the NWO for all those years? If so I have no idea how long it stayed alive as long as it did. We're going on the entire month of December 1999 where within the first 5 minutes of every show and the Armageddon PPV, I can figure out EXACTLY what is going to happen and how with the main event of the evening. I'm fast-forwarding at record shattering pace here boys.

Could be wrong, but I'm patiently waiting to find out Vince's feud with Haitch has been bullshit all along or something.






Edit: forgot to say, fully expecting Tori's night with X-Pac to somehow be part a Kane screwjob like "lol I was with DX the whole time" or some shit like that on Tori's end. Nothing has happened yet but it would not surprise me slightly

 

[JackSlater]

Rick "The Model" Martel promotes his cologne "Arrogance": Saturday Night's Main Event, April 28, 1990

Ah beautiful, thanks. Now that I think of it, it's too bad that WWE didn't put out a Rick Martel dvd, not that I expect it would have been a huge seller, during the dvd heyday.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Watching Superbrawl 91 and we have Black Bart vs Big Josh

Big Josh comes to the ring with 2 real live bears with muzzles on and leashes walking upright to the ring, one of the bears was pissing most of the way down the ramp. Classic WCW

 

[Unholy Diver]

And then shortly after the bears we have the debut of OZ, which might be the worst debut segment in wrestling history...words can't describe the awfulness



Oz vs. Tim Parker: SuperBrawl I | WWE

 

[These Are The Days]

And then shortly after the bears we have the debut of OZ, which might be the worst debut segment in wrestling history...words can't describe the awfulness



Oz vs. Tim Parker: SuperBrawl I | WWE

Hooooolllllllyyyyyyyy shit. How can anyone think such a thing is a good idea and how does someone put up with going through with it? Do they ever actually think of how long their gimmick can last for or if they're gonna get over? Do they think little kids are gonna be marking out for some dude in a wizard costume? Wow

 

[These Are The Days]

And in other news, Too Cool is rocketing up the list of my all time favorite tag teams. Nothing about them is special, well... Rikishi is fantastic for a man of that size. But they're so purposely ridiculous it actually makes it fun and you can tell the boys are having the time of their lives out there.

 

[These Are The Days]

Watching Royal Rumble 2000. Not finished yet. No clue what's gonna happen. But the Hardys vs Dudleys is just..... holy shit boys. WWE tries to gimmick the shit out of matches like TLC and it hasn't had a fraction of the excitement or daring



Edit: Was posting as the roll call was being made for the bikini contest and planned to skip it. I switch over to see Luna come out. Oh my God girl what are you intoxicated with? You poor thing. My heart goes out to Gangrel because I know he really did love her. Substance abuse is right up there with cancer

 

[These Are The Days]

Also, in an era where women are treated like trash I have yet to watch a single minute of a women's match because 90% of them are some shit like pudding matches or a bra and panties affair or Mae Young making an ass of herself. But massive credit to Ivory. She plays the part of the prude so well I can't be sure she isn't speaking from the heart.



PS- Speaking of Mae Young making an ass of herself. Christ alive this is smut boys


Edit because I've made enough posts already: I have completely given up all hope against Haitch's golden shovel and it's barely been 6 months or so. I couldn't stand it with Austin in the 1998 watch through and I can't fathom how any human being would willingly put themselves through YEARS of what I'm seeing now. Yeah no wonder he drew ratings for people to watch him get his ass kicked. This is like Roman's superman punch of death with the pedigree/JBL's cabinet interfering at every turn/Stone Cold miraculously finding some bullshit loophole that doesn't exist for anyone else but him in a given match/lmao Cena wins/Hogan's 4:1 ratio of getting his ass beat but to needing one second to win combined with legendary "no selling" all rolled into one dude. I've basically gotten to the point that when it comes to him or Austin to just assume they're going to win every time no matter what until further notice and to go with my gut on how the match will end and 9 times out of 10 I will be right.

I'm not saying I hate the guy. Hell of a worker and hell of a guy on the stick. It's just that I cannot fathom how or why anyone would think Haitch is special or worthy of any significant accolades. The "go away" heat is getting real in a hell of a hurry with this guy because this isn't courtesy of talent. More like courtesy of banging the boss's daughter

 

[canucksfan]

Looking back at how they booked the women back then was awful. The women that had some wrestling skills were forced to parade in their bra and panties. The women that had no skill but were plastic were pushed.

Jim Cornette had the best quote regarding HHH, "He was the guy that worked with the guy, that drew the money."

I watched Angle/HBK Wrestlemania match on Youtube. What a match. No gimmicks, just an outstanding wrestling match by two incredible pro wrestlers.

 

[These Are The Days]

Looking back at how they booked the women back then was awful. The women that had some wrestling skills were forced to parade in their bra and panties. The women that had no skill but were plastic were pushed.

Jim Cornette had the best quote regarding HHH, "He was the guy that worked with the guy, that drew the money."

I watched Angle/HBK Wrestlemania match on Youtube. What a match. No gimmicks, just an outstanding wrestling match by two incredible pro wrestlers.

Corny might be the biggest "get off my lawn" blowhard there is but the man knows what the hell he's talking about. His take nails it as usual. I watch guys like Taker, Rock and Foley and I feel like I'm watching transcendent talent and any match has a potential to be GOAT. With Austin I see the same thing as Hogan. Right guy. Right place. Right time. Right gimmick. Ain't nothing wrong with it. He deserves ever accolade he gets. Haitch? He works with them and finds a way to f*** em over. Nothing special about it.

 

[Megahab]

Jim Cornette had the best quote regarding HHH, "He was the guy that worked with the guy, that drew the money."

.

I've heard this quote before and it's BS. Triple H was the top heel for probably the hottest period in WWE history. You couldn't have just put anyone in that position.

 

[These Are The Days]

I've heard this quote before and it's BS. Triple H was the top heel for probably the hottest period in WWE history. You couldn't have just put anyone in that position.

Define "top" if you can. The only reason you can't put "just anyone" there is because with the sole exception of Bret Hart in 1997 all the other mega stars are total flops as heels. Because in the AE, they were too beloved as babyfaces by proxy of the AE letting babyfaces be hot shit on the mic wowing everyone every night with dazzling catchphrases that burned the house down. As heels they're mouthbreathers about as keen as 4th grader getting outsmarted by a remedial fraction problem in math. HHH at best as a babyface was the mildly popular leader of DX.

You build an amazing babyface when you hate him SO MUCH as heel. The inverse is true. But no one truly loved HHH. He is only unique in that he is the only heel of the day not being operated as cannon fodder. To do so you needed a heel with a counterweight push so massive it had its own orbit. And the NAO and X-Pac along with Evolution revolved around him like planets and couldn't lose any matches either and only added to the mass of the black hole. That is not impressive to me. It's a guy serving a need to be the right place at the right time and needed the brass to pull every string they could to make sure he got over and stayed that way and the fans could eat shit if they didn't like it because he didn't negate the buyer rate on a PPV.

The WWF is a brand of extremes. As my of AE watch through in the year 2000 to date, like Austin this guy's push is going way, WAAAAYYYYY too far and its only made worse that I can't watch this vastly entertaining show. Nah, I gotta see him and Steph every 15 seconds on top of "lol Cena wins" levels of booking. Like Austin, he has NO business being champion this frequently this long

 

[JackSlater]

I've heard this quote before and it's BS. Triple H was the top heel for probably the hottest period in WWE history. You couldn't have just put anyone in that position.

I have to disagree with that. Vince McMahon was the top heel of that era, for better or worse. Tri was the guy in the ring but he never had any standout quality and the faces he went against were generally the best part of any feud. Corporate Rock (and then Hollywood Rock) was a better heel, goofy early Angle was a better heel, heel Austin was better even if people didn't want it. Michaels was better as the leader of DX and early Austin was a tremendous heel that nobody touched at the time. Tri did have a strong but short in-ring peak around 2000 and was a credible main eventer but we all know how he managed to monopolize that top heel spot below Vince.

Define "top" if you can. The only reason you can't put "just anyone" there is because with the sole exception of Bret Hart in 1997 all the other mega stars are total flops as heels. Because in the AE, they were too beloved as babyfaces by proxy of the AE letting babyfaces be hot shit on the mic wowing everyone every night with dazzling catchphrases that burned the house down. As heels they're mouthbreathers about as keen as 4th grader getting outsmarted by a remedial fraction problem in math. HHH at best as a babyface was the mildly popular leader of DX.

You build an amazing babyface when you hate him SO MUCH as heel. The inverse is true. But no one truly loved HHH. He is only unique in that he is the only heel of the day not being operated as cannon fodder. To so you needed a heel with a counterweight push so massive it had its own orbit. And the NAO and X-Pac along with Evolution revolved around him like planets and couldn't lose any matches either and only added to the mass of the black hole. That is not impressive to me. It's a guy serving a need to be the right place at the right time and needed the brass to pull every string they could to make sure he got over and stayed that way and the fans could eat shit if they didn't like it because he didn't negate the buyer rate on a PPV.

The WWF is a brand of extremes. As my of AE watch through in the year 2000 to date, like Austin this guy's push is going way, WAAAAYYYYY too far and its only made worse that I can't watch this vastly entertaining show. Nah, I gotta see him and Steph every 15 seconds on top of "lol Cena wins" levels of booking. Like Austin, he has NO business being champion this frequently this long

Yeah, he was there and getting reactions but I'm pretty confident that the bulk of it was just frustration with Paul Levesque rather than with Hunter Hearst Hemsley. Once the top faces of the era disappeared I don't think it's shocking that he failed to get pretty much anyone over for years, at least until Batista. And I do give him credit for that.