Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Been rewatching a bunch of matches of The Godfather, Too Cool, Big Boss Man, Gangrel, and “The Lethal Weapon” Steve Blackman lately.

Fun stuff.

Blackman was such a beast.

 

[These Are The Days]

Just got done watching SummerSlam 1998. Anyone who says Undertaker isn't the GOAT either isn't paying attention, lying to themselves or I guess they just simply disagree with what I define as greatness. Guy would go on about "respeck" like a broken record and it often led me tuning out of his promos. I hated it as a kid.

But he put guys over clean as a f***ing whistle how many times with the belt on the line. And just did it for Stone Cold. And he did it for Lesnar in a Hell In A Cell match, I know he did it for Angle in 2006 too. I remember him putting Vladimir Kozlov over in 2009 and even looking like a fool against The Great Khali too despite not being title matches. And the thing is... There may have been other title matches I simply cannot remember or haven't seen yet but it's rare you see a man who practices what he preaches.

I can't speak to what his personal relationship with Stone Cold must've been like but it's such a pleasure to watch 2 guys who cared so much about "best match possible" and cared so much about being safe with one other. I have to imagine their exchanges in private must've been nothing short of torturing each other at times because they both wanted those 2 same things so badly and had their own ideas on how to do it. But I'm sure when the match was over all that tension on figuring out how it was gonna happen was gone, both guys were probably very happy and satisfied

 

[Megahab]

Just got done watching SummerSlam 1998. Anyone who says Undertaker isn't the GOAT either isn't paying attention, lying to themselves or I guess they just simply disagree with what I define as greatness. Guy would go on about "respeck" like a broken record and it often led me tuning out of his promos. I hated it as a kid.

But he put guys over clean as a f***ing whistle how many times with the belt on the line. And just did it for Stone Cold. And he did it for Lesnar in a Hell In A Cell match, I know he did it for Angle in 2006 too. I remember him putting Vladimir Kozlov over in 2009 and even looking like a fool against The Great Khali too despite not being title matches. And the thing is... There may have been other title matches I simply cannot remember or haven't seen yet but it's rare you see a man who practices what he preaches.

I can't speak to what his personal relationship with Stone Cold must've been like but it's such a pleasure to watch 2 guys who cared so much about "best match possible" and cared so much about being safe with one other. I have to imagine their exchanges in private must've been nothing short of torturing each other at times because they both wanted those 2 same things so badly and had their own ideas on how to do it. But I'm sure when the match was over all that tension on figuring out how it was gonna happen was gone, both guys were probably very happy and satisfied

I don't think we should be using Austin as an example of Taker's willingness to put guys over. By the time of their Summerslam 98 match, Austin was 10x the star Taker ever was.

Other than that, Lesnar and Foley are the only guys I can think of that Taker properly put over where it actually helped the other guy's career. I won't count Khali and Kozlov because they were going nowhere anyway. Angle's win if I'm remembering right was just booked like a fluky roll up win.

There are more guys Taker could have put over. Some that come to mind are CM Punk, Edge, Randy Orton and Booker T. I never liked Kane, but Kane should have been booked so much stronger against Taker. Plus I can't forgive Taker for the DDP feud.

 

[sabremike]

If you have Kindle get the Stan Hansen autobiography (don't think there is an English print version). Got it awhile back and have been reading it the past few days, it's tremendous.

 

[These Are The Days]

I don't think we should be using Austin as an example of Taker's willingness to put guys over. By the time of their Summerslam 98 match, Austin was 10x the star Taker ever was.

Other than that, Lesnar and Foley are the only guys I can think of that Taker properly put over where it actually helped the other guy's career. I won't count Khali and Kozlov because they were going nowhere anyway. Angle's win if I'm remembering right was just booked like a fluky roll up win.

There are more guys Taker could have put over. Some that come to mind are CM Punk, Edge, Randy Orton and Booker T. I never liked Kane, but Kane should have been booked so much stronger against Taker. Plus I can't forgive Taker for the DDP feud.

This is going to be an unpopular opinion but SCSA rode the cheapest heat of any babyface in the history of professional wrestling. It's the babyfaces answer to Bill Alfonso blowing his coach whistle for 20 straight minutes during ECW matches. People legitimately wanted him dead because they couldn't enjoy the matches and to this day you can't watch the product without it being on mute.

As for SCSA every night the guy comes out giving the finger to people he doesn't like, he drinks beer, about every 4th week he beats the shit out of McMahon and gets arrested for it. Whenever his enemies are in the ring he does the most outrageous crap you've ever seen like driving monster trucks and zambonis into the ring to crash the party and the infamous Crapper 3:16 segment with Golddust. How do you NOT get over 10x more than Taker did? It is literally impossible. It was the Jerry Springer antics that got people so fired up because when the glass broke -SOME bullshit was going down and it was gonna be memorable. No one has EVER been given such privilege before or since. Russo/McMahon knew exactly what they were doing. SCSA could cut a great promo and was a safe worker. It's the "Joe Montana was a system QB" equivalent of professional wrestling. And I'll be damned if SCSA isn't the most transcendent superstar in history. You took a guy who was a "9 out of 10" and turned him into a "30 out of 10" the likes of CM Punk, the Rock and John Cena were all better promos (imo) and equitable workers but they never transcended like Stone Cold and if they got to pull all those crazy shenanigans I'm willing to bet they would have.

The reason Taker gets my praise is because SCSA did not need to get put over THAT clean. The guy would've been a supernova anyway had the ref been down and he cracked Taker with a chair or some BS like that and then won under controversial circumstances.

Lesnar was a rare circumstance because here you have a rare athlete to begin with anyway -but guys like that never made it to WWE and every talent along the way put him over clean en route to superstardom. The Rock did it. Hogan did it. And then Taker did it and turned Lesnar babyface in the process. And then he lets Lesnar break the streak. I agree with you about Kane. In a perfect world, Kane is riding one last monster heel run and he and Taker have a casket match at Mania. Kane wins clean as a whistle and Taker is sent away by druids in an eerie ceremony and you just hear nothing ever again. Taker's career is done.

We agree on Khali and Kozlov. That was stupid. But as for Angle's rollup while in the hell's gate submission, that match was fantastic. The super serious wrestling machine" was probably the purest of Angle's babyface incarnations and I actually think going over clean -despite the rollup was a great idea because it made Mysterio's Mania win that much bigger a few months later. For the rest of the guys I agree there too but I think Vince was too set on protecting Taker vs putting other talent over. I think Mark Calaway the man was more than willing to put over anyone at any time but Vince's final word always overruled him. The fact he was willing to let Edge break the streak speaks multitudes of the man behind the dark hat.

 

[sabremike]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion but SCSA rode the cheapest heat of any babyface in the history of professional wrestling. It's the babyfaces answer to Bill Alfonso blowing his coach whistle for 20 straight minutes during ECW matches. People legitimately wanted him dead because they couldn't enjoy the matches and to this day you can't watch the product without it being on mute.

As for SCSA every night the guy comes out giving the finger to people he doesn't like, he drinks beer, about every 4th week he beats the shit out of McMahon and gets arrested for it. Whenever his enemies are in the ring he does the most outrageous crap you've ever seen like driving monster trucks and zambonis into the ring to crash the party and the infamous Crapper 3:16 segment with Golddust. How do you NOT get over 10x more than Taker did? It is literally impossible. It was the Jerry Springer antics that got people so fired up because when the glass broke -SOME bullshit was going down and it was gonna be memorable. No one has EVER been given such privilege before or since. Russo/McMahon knew exactly what they were doing. SCSA could cut a great promo and was a safe worker. It's the "Joe Montana was a system QB" equivalent of professional wrestling. And I'll be damned if SCSA isn't the most transcendent superstar in history. You took a guy who was a "9 out of 10" and turned him into a "30 out of 10" the likes of CM Punk, the Rock and John Cena were all better promos (imo) and equitable workers but they never transcended like Stone Cold and if they got to pull all those crazy shenanigans I'm willing to bet they would have.

The reason Taker gets my praise is because SCSA did not need to get put over THAT clean. The guy would've been a supernova anyway had the ref been down and he cracked Taker with a chair or some BS like that and then won under controversial circumstances.

Lesnar was a rare circumstance because here you have a rare athlete to begin with anyway -but guys like that never made it to WWE and every talent along the way put him over clean en route to superstardom. The Rock did it. Hogan did it. And then Taker did it and turned Lesnar babyface in the process. And then he lets Lesnar break the streak. I agree with you about Kane. In a perfect world, Kane is riding one last monster heel run and he and Taker have a casket match at Mania. Kane wins clean as a whistle and Taker is sent away by druids in an eerie ceremony and you just hear nothing ever again. Taker's career is done.

We agree on Khali and Kozlov. That was stupid. But as for Angle's rollup while in the hell's gate submission, that match was fantastic. The super serious wrestling machine" was probably the purest of Angle's babyface incarnations and I actually think going over clean -despite the rollup was a great idea because it made Mysterio's Mania win that much bigger a few months later. For the rest of the guys I agree there too but I think Vince was too set on protecting Taker vs putting other talent over. I think Mark Calaway the man was more than willing to put over anyone at any time but Vince's final word always overruled him. The fact he was willing to let Edge break the streak speaks multitudes of the man behind the dark hat.

If this is a shot at Austin for not doing an out of the blue job for Lesnar as punishment by the clueless bookers it's incredibly stupid and shows a complete lack of understanding about the business (emphasis on business. Austin felt the match needed to be built so it could headline a PPV and draw big money, not thrown out at random with no build on TV for free).

 

[These Are The Days]

If this is a shot at Austin for not doing an out of the blue job for Lesnar as punishment by the clueless bookers it's incredibly stupid and shows a complete lack of understanding about the business (emphasis on business. Austin felt the match needed to be built so it could headline a PPV and draw big money, not thrown out at random with no build on TV for free).

I heard about that but no it's just about Taker being awesome and putting SCSA over at SummerSlam so cleanly. I argue SCSA didn't need to be put over clean but Taker did it anyway and I love him for it. I actually side with SCSA in regards to Lesnar though

 

[Transplanted Caper]

RAW December 22, 1997

The Jackyl (Don Callis) leads Kurrgan to the ring and cuts a promo.

Cornette: "JR, there's nothing worse than a motormouth manager"
JR: "I've been saying that for years"
*perfect beat of silence*
Cornette: "HEY!"

 

[BostonBob]

There was a match once where the winner had to blow up a firecracker in the loser's butt.

BOOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Vince deserved an Emmy for this. Just incredible camp.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Santino sold that Stunner like a boss.

 

[These Are The Days]

Just watched 1/4/99 of Raw -same night as the infamous finger poke of doom. WWF programming back then made absolutely no sense on its best night. Great example being a few weeks prior, Mankind beats the Rock via mandible claw knockout on PPV. But doesn't win the title because it wasn't submission or pinfall. And then Billy Gunn gets knocked out by Shamrock the next night on Raw and the tag titles are dropped.

But I gotta tell you. When they did shit right they did it RIGHT.

The build up was perfect. The angle between DX/Mankind/Corporation made as much sense as it gets. The match storytelling was perfect. SCSA coming out messing it up was perfect. Hell even Michael Cole was perfect. It's kinda cool to see him instead JR call such a big moment in Raw history because it happened so rarely to that point. That crowd popped like the Red Sox just broke the curse.

It's unimaginable to me how WCW remained in business as long as they did after a night like this

 

[The Crypto Guy]

It's criminal that Mick Foley only has 5 votes.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

It's criminal that Mick Foley only has 5 votes.

As one of the 5 who voted for him, I agree.

 

[BostonBob]

It's criminal that Mick Foley only has 5 votes.

As one of the 5 who voted for him, I agree.

It's not that most of us don't like him - it's just that we like 5 other guys more than him.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Lol @ Cena with 0 votes

 

[Bondurant]

If you have Kindle get the Stan Hansen autobiography (don't think there is an English print version). Got it awhile back and have been reading it the past few days, it's tremendous.

You can order a physical copy from Crowbar Press. Ordered when the book was released years ago when it came with an autographed photo.

The Last Outlaw by Stan Hansen with Scott Teal

 

[BostonBob]

Lol @ Cena with 0 votes

Obviously because we can't see his name.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

Obviously because we can't see his name.

I stopped caring about the WWF/E long before Cena arrived but yes, I get the reference.

*tips hat*

 

[These Are The Days]

It's criminal that Mick Foley only has 5 votes.

Might be the truest thing I've ever seen. The guy was/is literally indestructible.

I can say with certainty that if Mick offered me a bump I'd trust him unconditionally to do it because I'll admit, I've always wondered what it was like. But what I can't say with certainty is how the hell anyone could do it as long as he did and just get up and walk it off. And have a full blown match on Raw the next night and do it again. And again. And again.

The only gluttons for punishment who match him are those hockey players who block shots like they're taking a bullet for the President. Who cares if you break your ankle and are out 4 weeks? Someone had to stop that slap shot that was off-target by 3 feet!

 

[John Price]

 

[Unholy Diver]

Better watch any WCW or ECW stuff you want to see now before the regular network shuts down on April 5th, cause Peacock doesn't have much on its version

 

[These Are The Days]

Better watch any WCW or ECW stuff you want to see now before the regular network shuts down on April 5th, cause Peacock doesn't have much on its version

Peacock destroys everything

 

[DaaaaB's]

Why's that?

I'm sure everyone likes him but this poll is full of legends. The Undertaker only has 5 votes, zero for Mysterio, only 1 for Dusty Rhodes, 2 for Race and Edge, Andre and Bryan only have 3 each, Vader and Sting 4 each. So Foley only having 5 votes doesn't seem out of place to me.

 

[DoyleG]

The philosophical thoughts.....

...of Ludvig Borga