Classic Wrestling Discussion: Part III & Wrestler Poll

[These Are The Days]

I have heard over the years that Owen was supposed to be called "The Game" but he was never supposed to get the push HHH got in mid 1999.

That I can buy in to, Paul Levasque (or however the hell you spell it) was in with Vince for a long damn time and was due for a push as far back as 1996 but the "Curtain Call" incident with Hall and Nash basically pushed it back a year and Austin got it instead. I don't know why Owen never got the strap. Aside from breaking Austin's neck (as Austin says, he talked to Owen before the match about a piledriver done going to his knees ala tombstone to which Owen replied "I land on my ass" and Austin tried to clear it up but Owen insisted and I think what happened was the two never agreed on Austin's positioning to take the bump) he appeared to be a very safe worker. He was solid on the mic too. But I digress, I don't have any insight to the WWF's reasoning at the time. He is right up there with "Best to never have the belt" and I argue he laid the foundation for Kurt Angle many years later.

But Owen coming out getting called "The Game" on top of his already amazing ring prowess and doing whatever it took to win any given night during a "serious character" heel run makes perfect sense to me. I buy the rumor so hard because he's the only other guy in the WWF at the time to be worthy of such a monicker because the idea that "the game cheats" had been ingrained into our societal fabric for almost 15 years at the time. And God knows by 1999 Owen and HHH were the dirtiest of the bunch. Hell, Haitch won the bulk of his matches as a baby face dirty too. Now granted, I can't remember any match Marc Mero won without a low blow but he was long gone by then.

 

[JackSlater]

I've seen it said many times that Owen Hart might have ben given "The Game" as a moniker but not the push (as already stated) and honestly it isn't like that moniker is a gimmick. Tri's gimmick was mainly generic heel who's always around the top of the card and that wasn't going to be Owen Hart. There was a line blurred between Tri the wrestler and Tri the real guy (Michaels' lackey, Stephanie's husband, power behind the throne etc.) that wouldn't be replicated. I'm a big Owen Hart fan but I'm also not sure that he had the drive, particularly by the late 90s, to be pushed into a main event spot in that era. Great in the ring, adequate promo who was great with certain gimmicks. Also definitely someone who was ahead of his time.

I'll also say that all of the other tribute shows have paled in comparison to the Raw is Owen episode.

 

[Megahab]

I'll also say that all of the other tribute shows have paled in comparison to the Raw is Owen episode.

The only problem I had with it is that it ended with Austin doing a beer toast. From all accounts, they didn't like each other. Martha Hart even said Austin was one of the few guys Owen didn't get along with even before the neck injury.

 

[JackSlater]

The only problem I had with it is that it ended with Austin doing a beer toast. From all accounts, they didn't like each other. Martha Hart even said Austin was one of the few guys Owen didn't get along with even before the neck injury.

That's true, though it makes some sense why they did ended the show with what would get the biggest reaction. Austin is pretty much the only guy I've heard that Owen Hart didn't get along with, though I'd guess that maybe Michaels is another, at least by the late stages of his first run.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Watching a RAW from 1999. Brisco and Patterson come out to Real American for the first time. JR and Lawler lose it. Lawler can't stop laughing. JR muttering "Good god, listen to that".

 

[Transplanted Caper]

On Owen - not sure what, if any, heat there was between Owen and Austin pre-neck injury. Austin acknowledged they weren't close and didn't travel or hang out in the same circles. Obviously, there was a lot of heat after the neck injury - Austin felt Owen was careless by dropping to his ass instead of his knees in the spot (despite Austin questioning him on it several times before the match). Ultimately Austin put his trust in Owen on it, and wound up getting hurt badly. Owen didn't check in with Austin afterword, which didn't help things, a fact Bret corroborated in his book.

Owen was a brilliant performer though, and a timeless one. His heel work - whether it be the more vicious stuff or the absurd stuff would have played in an era.

 

[Megahab]

Watching a RAW from 1999. Brisco and Patterson come out to Real American for the first time. JR and Lawler lose it. Lawler can't stop laughing. JR muttering "Good god, listen to that".

And only 3 years later, it was played every week.

 

[Megahab]

On Owen - not sure what, if any, heat there was between Owen and Austin pre-neck injury. Austin acknowledged they weren't close and didn't travel or hang out in the same circles. Obviously, there was a lot of heat after the neck injury - Austin felt Owen was careless by dropping to his ass instead of his knees in the spot (despite Austin questioning him on it several times before the match). Ultimately Austin put his trust in Owen on it, and wound up getting hurt badly. Owen didn't check in with Austin afterword, which didn't help things, a fact Bret corroborated in his book.

Owen was a brilliant performer though, and a timeless one. His heel work - whether it be the more vicious stuff or the absurd stuff would have played in an era.

If I'm remembering right from Martha Hart's book, Owen didn't like Austin even before the neck injury. Can't remember what it was about or if the reason is even mentioned. But Martha, to me, comes across as nothing but genuine in her book.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

If I'm remembering right from Martha Hart's book, Owen didn't like Austin even before the neck injury. Can't remember what it was about or if the reason is even mentioned. But Martha, to me, comes across as nothing but genuine in her book.

I googled this, out of curiosity. Apparently, Owen simply didn't like Austin and didn't think he was a good person, which, fair enough. Martha also apparently wrote that Owen questioned how legitimate Austin's neck injury was which seems less credible both in reality (obviously) and as an anecdote from Martha.

 

[Unholy Diver]

Watching Bash at the Beach from I think 98 and Jericho comes out to the ring to his WWE Break the Walls Down theme, is this new to the Peacock setup or has it been that way all along?

 

[These Are The Days]

Watching Bash at the Beach from I think 98 and Jericho comes out to the ring to his WWE Break the Walls Down theme, is this new to the Peacock setup or has it been that way all along?

It's always been that way. WWE is too damn cheap to pay for "One Crazed Anarchist" so they dubbed Break the Walls Down over everything Jericho has in WCW.

 

[These Are The Days]

For what it's worth, HHH's heel turn at Mania XV was a pleasant surprise and I can't really say I was expecting it since I didn't get to see a damn thing back in the day. Historically you'll see a gradual transition in character or build up like you saw in Stone Cold finally coming around to the crowd. Bret Hart had a slow burn to a heel that took almost a year. The "conscience of the WWF" Undertaker wanting to be champion so bad he just says screw it and goes back to Paul Bearer. The Rock during his time in The Nation and after he got out.

HHH on the other hand?? It's a complete and total mindf*** to me that he goes from DX goofball to literally the same HHH we see today in a matter of seconds. Just poof! Fully cemented in the character by the following night on Raw and hasn't changed in over 20 years since. I mean Hogan did that too but even he came back out in the red and yellow 3 years later.

Guys changing character suddenly is nothing new. But changing that much and it basically being permanent for over 20 years is just.... wow.

 

[Megahab]

For what it's worth, HHH's heel turn at Mania XV was a pleasant surprise and I can't really say I was expecting it since I didn't get to see a damn thing back in the day.

I saw it when it first aired and for me, it was totally unexpected. I don't remember there being any hints leading up to Mania that he'd turn heel. Also, earlier in the night, Chyna (who joined the Corporation a month or two prior) turned face and reunited with Triple H. So I don't think anyone saw another turn coming with the same people twice in one night.

 

[These Are The Days]

I saw it when it first aired and for me, it was totally unexpected. I don't remember there being any hints leading up to Mania that he'd turn heel. Also, earlier in the night, Chyna (who joined the Corporation a month or two prior) turned face and reunited with Triple H. So I don't think anyone saw another turn coming with the same people twice in one night.

Same. I can't really remember an instance of that happening since either. Has there ever been?

In the end I shouldn't have been surprised because WWE almost always turns two main event guys in a matter of weeks and I knew there was no way Rock was gonna stay corporate for any longer. They needed a heel champion for Austin to face. Just months prior to Mania arenas everywhere were going nuclear for The Rock and his time as a corporate heel was solely for that purpose. Kudos to them doing that in order to make a great main event. And for knowing there was no sense in dragging it out and letting him be a babyface. HHH's heel turn into being a corporate heavy to replace him was an excellent counterbalance and allowed for much needed character development that made for his push into the main event scene.

I don't know if that was Russo but that shit was writing itself and I cannot applaud it enough.

 

[Bondurant]

It's always been that way. WWE is too damn cheap to pay for "One Crazed Anarchist" so they dubbed Break the Walls Down over everything Jericho has in WCW.

I would have thought Vince owned the music after buying up Dubya Cee Dubya. Jericho's theme was written by William Allan Bookheim whom I think was an in house musician like Jim Johnston. Among his known credits are a string of WCW themes. Royalties and publishing can be tricky and problematic. The release of some television shows on DVD have been delayed or canceled over music issues.

 

[These Are The Days]

I would have thought Vince owned the music after buying up Dubya Cee Dubya. Jericho's theme was written by William Allan Bookheim whom I think was an in house musician like Jim Johnston. Among his known credits are a string of WCW themes. Royalties and publishing can be tricky and problematic. The release of some television shows on DVD have been delayed or canceled over music issues.

I would've thought so too but your last point stands out the most. There's been a lot of music issues and it's even affected his own company. I once remember some time ago being on WWE network watching a Wrestlemania Demolition match where they win the belts (can't remember what year that was) and instead of hearing one of the best entrance songs of all time you hear some cheap thumping tune that sounded like the opening bassline in Runnin With The Devil getting dubbed in and you could barely hear the crowd.

 

[BostonBob]

Man - time flies by. 25 years ago today this happened on WCW Monday Night Nitro:

 

[Hockeyholic]

Man - time flies by. 25 years ago today this happened on WCW Monday Night Nitro:

Changed Wrestling forever.

What a moment.

It's a shame he was never given the belt.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Changed Wrestling forever.

What a moment.

It's a shame he was never given the belt.

If by forever you mean 2-3 years, then sure.

 

[alko]

Man - time flies by. 25 years ago today this happened on WCW Monday Night Nitro:

That was a brilliant idea. Curious, if McMahon knew about that.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Found some twitch channels that stream these old Monday night wars episodes and holy shit, WCW was brtual. I don't know how anyone preferred that over WWF. Nothing but NWO. Can't have any other matches without commentary flapping their gums about what dastardly deeds the NWO have planned the whole time. Barely any clean finishes, main event always ends up in some NWO brawl. Awful.

 

[JackSlater]

Found some twitch channels that stream these old Monday night wars episodes and holy shit, WCW was brtual. I don't know how anyone preferred that over WWF. Nothing but NWO. Can't have any other matches without commentary flapping their gums about what dastardly deeds the NWO have planned the whole time. Barely any clean finishes, main event always ends up in some NWO brawl. Awful.

WCW had the worse main show since, as you're noting here, there was no real direction other than "NWO!" and eventually "GOLDBERG WINS!". It definitely had the better lesser shows though. WCW Saturday Night was great - a bit of storyline not involving the NWO from time to time plus the depth of the roster could really shine. I'd say that at the time the idea of the NWO was so novel that that's all WCW needed for quite a while, plus the great roster depth for a great match every once and a while.

 

[Megahab]

Found some twitch channels that stream these old Monday night wars episodes and holy shit, WCW was brtual. I don't know how anyone preferred that over WWF. Nothing but NWO. Can't have any other matches without commentary flapping their gums about what dastardly deeds the NWO have planned the whole time. Barely any clean finishes, main event always ends up in some NWO brawl. Awful.

If we're talking about 1996, Raw was terrible. Too much of cringey babyface Shawn Michaels.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

If we're talking about 1996, Raw was terrible. Too much of cringey babyface Shawn Michaels.

1996 Shawn Michaels is one of my most hated main event wrestlers. The guy can't string together two sentences without slurring his speech and was booked to super Cena levels.

Don't get me started on his times doing play by play when he was "injured" either.

Hell of a wrestler though.

 

[Edge]

1996 Shawn Michaels is one of my most hated main event wrestlers. The guy can't string together two sentences without slurring his speech and was booked to super Cena levels.

Don't get me started on his times doing play by play when he was "injured" either.

Hell of a wrestler though.

Shawn was like Curt Hennig, born to be a heel.

I think the WWF's upper card/main event could've lived for years with Hart as the face battling the likes of Michaels and Hennig, and then eventually turning Hart heel and having him feud with Austin and The Rock.