Rumor: City of Surrey wants to build new 10,000 Seat Arena - for relocated Professional Hockey Club

[wetcoast]

Just what the Lower Mainland needs, another arena with a seating capacity of 8,000-10,000. Why? The AHL couldn't survive in Abbotsford; and the ECHL was a flop in Victoria. You can add in the Chilliwack Coliseum (5,500) and the Langley Events Center (5,700). Of course there's the venerable Pacific Coliseum (15,800). How many arenas does one metro region of 2.8m people really need?

I suppose the Giants could move to this new facility in Surrey. But you have to wonder when Surrey taxpayers are going step up and say 'no'. Surely that money can be better spent on improving the existing recreation facilities in a place that's growing as fast as Surrey.

This was my first thought as well.

Where is the need for this.

Also "downtown" Surrey is a misnomer, I know the area well it's almost all residential and municipal, heck even the biggest shopping district is Guilford not in the downtown.

but there is also alot of growth and transformation in the area as well as quite a bit of room for much more so time will tell.

 

[rypper]

You think that team being the Abbotsford FLAMES had something to do with it?

This. Anytime the Canucks affiliate would come to town the place would be packed. When the Canucks had a preseason game there this year it was sold out.

There's a ton of Canuck fans into the valley who would snap up season tickets and fill the house every game.

 

[StreetHawk]

This. Anytime the Canucks affiliate would come to town the place would be packed. When the Canucks had a preseason game there this year it was sold out.

There's a ton of Canuck fans into the valley who would snap up season tickets and fill the house every game.

I think the things to weight out are:
Travel to divisional opponents which you lose out on vs having your A team closer to monitor performance and develop. That is a trade off. Costs are going to come into play here. Plus with Surrey being isolated I would imagine the visiting team would play 2 games since there is no other opponent they can play the next day. So, does that dampen the crowds to are not STH?

A Surrey location has to be by a sky train stop. So there are only a couple of option for it be located. AHL teams seem to come and go. So that would be a concern.

For me, I’d have the team in California. Makes it easier for them to travel and depending on the city they should be able to catch a flight to Vancouver each day.

 

[iceburg]

We are fixated on travel as a determining factor and I understand why.

But some of the exNHL players/pundits weighed in yesterday on other benefits of same city affiliates including:
-access to NHL level facilities
-common NHL-level support: training staff, therapists, dieticians etc.
-common Doctors
-ability to get a look at prospects in NHL practices from time-to-time
-NHL coaches, including head coach, and management able to regularly get a first hand look at prospects in live games
-cap management
I'm sure there are other things I've forgotten

Independent of travel, it just seems incredibly more efficient and could lead to better/faster prospect development.

 

[Wandering Cynic]

Surrey is a much better option than Abbotsford. It’s one of the fastest growing cities in North America, and proximity wise, it’s closer to Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby, etc. I think an AHL team would do well in Surrey.

I’m surprised no WHL team has come to Surrey yet.

 

[NoShowWilly]

We are fixated on travel as a determining factor and I understand why.

But some of the exNHL players/pundits weighed in yesterday on other benefits of same city affiliates including:
-access to NHL level facilities
-common NHL-level support: training staff, therapists, dieticians etc.
-common Doctors
-ability to get a look at prospects in NHL practices from time-to-time
-NHL coaches, including head coach, and management able to regularly get a first hand look at prospects in live games
-cap management
I'm sure there are other things I've forgotten

Independent of travel, it just seems incredibly more efficient and could lead to better/faster prospect development.

Add to this the willingness of young international players to come over as they'll be in Metro vancouver. Tweener Veterans would be more willing to sign with our farm team and it is beneficial to players and families.

Much easier to bring up a prospect instead of a 'vet' because 'they would just be sitting there not playing for a week.'

I understand financially and possible tax burden but no one is going to convince me that being in Surrey would adversely affect our prospects m

 

[Tryamkin]

i will buy a surrey jacks jersey.

 

[Blue and Green]

Add to this the willingness of young international players to come over as they'll be in Metro vancouver. Tweener Veterans would be more willing to sign with our farm team and it is beneficial to players and families.

Much easier to bring up a prospect instead of a 'vet' because 'they would just be sitting there not playing for a week.'

I understand financially and possible tax burden but no one is going to convince me that being in Surrey would adversely affect our prospects m

I don't think being in Metro Vancouver instead of Utica would be any huge advantage with overseas prospects, and cost of living is lower in Utica which matters for anyone on an AHL salary.

 

[BORAT53]

So many small arenas in the lower mainland that it's not even funny. WHL Capacity yet it's likely going to be another BCHL team.

 

[VanJack]

Let's face it, COVID is going to impact NHL revenues for the foreseeable future, so every facet of a team's operations is going to be under relentless scrutiny for cost-savings. And that scrutiny will include the budget for an NHL farm team.

As much as some fans might like to see the Canucks farm team take over a brand, spanking arena in Surrey, the reality is it would cost a lot more to run an AHL team out of the Lower Mainland than it ever would in Utica. The travel alone would be a huge cost-driver. And can you imagine some AHL players trying to survive financially in Vancouver's hyper real estate market on what they earn? They'd have to go back to a junior hockey billeting system for sure.

Everybody prattles on about how hard it is to get players from Utica to Vancouver. But look at the record. The Canucks don't call anyone up from Utica anyway. And if they do, all they do is sit in the press-box. Besides there's talk of allowing NHL teams to carry a 'taxi squad' for next season at least, to reduce travel and COVID exposure risk.

I suppose if the Aquilini's want to spend a ton more money to operate their AHL team, it their right. After all, it's their money. But I just don't think dramatically increasing the budget for your AHL team is something they'd welcome, not only right now but well into the future.

 

[StreetHawk]

We are fixated on travel as a determining factor and I understand why.

But some of the exNHL players/pundits weighed in yesterday on other benefits of same city affiliates including:
-access to NHL level facilities
-common NHL-level support: training staff, therapists, dieticians etc.
-common Doctors
-ability to get a look at prospects in NHL practices from time-to-time
-NHL coaches, including head coach, and management able to regularly get a first hand look at prospects in live games
-cap management
I'm sure there are other things I've forgotten

Independent of travel, it just seems incredibly more efficient and could lead to better/faster prospect development.

If I took a look at the NHL/AHL teams, I think you have the following that are in-state/province:
LA, ANA, SJ, LV(soon to be), AZ, COL, DAL, CHI, WIN, TOR, OTT, MON, BUF, PHI, PIT, DET, CBS, plus we know that travel in the Northeast like Rhode Island, CT, NY, Providence, etc. is very close. So, close to 2/3 of the NHL has it close by.

TB, FLA, EDM, CAL, STL, MIN (1 state over), VAN, NAS, WAS (in Hershey, PA) are further.

But, to be isolated also is not a good thing. Edmonton did not last long in Tulsa.

 

[Goon42]

Would be a lively and ruckus crowd, hostile environment for the opposing team lol

bruh it would be a hostile environment for everyone

 

[CpatainCanuck]

This was my first thought as well.

Where is the need for this.

Also "downtown" Surrey is a misnomer, I know the area well it's almost all residential and municipal, heck even the biggest shopping district is Guilford not in the downtown.

but there is also alot of growth and transformation in the area as well as quite a bit of room for much more so time will tell.

It's kind of strange that Abbotsford and Langley got big new arenas before Surrey did.

 

[StreetHawk]

It's kind of strange that Abbotsford and Langley got big new arenas before Surrey did.

What's been the benefit to those 2 cities for their 6-7K arenas? Was it a wise investment?

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Let's face it, COVID is going to impact NHL revenues for the foreseeable future, so every facet of a team's operations is going to be under relentless scrutiny for cost-savings. And that scrutiny will include the budget for an NHL farm team.

As much as some fans might like to see the Canucks farm team take over a brand, spanking arena in Surrey, the reality is it would cost a lot more to run an AHL team out of the Lower Mainland than it ever would in Utica. The travel alone would be a huge cost-driver. And can you imagine some AHL players trying to survive financially in Vancouver's hyper real estate market on what they earn? They'd have to go back to a junior hockey billeting system for sure.

Everybody prattles on about how hard it is to get players from Utica to Vancouver. But look at the record. The Canucks don't call anyone up from Utica anyway. And if they do, all they do is sit in the press-box. Besides there's talk of allowing NHL teams to carry a 'taxi squad' for next season at least, to reduce travel and COVID exposure risk.

I suppose if the Aquilini's want to spend a ton more money to operate their AHL team, it their right. After all, it's their money. But I just don't think dramatically increasing the budget for your AHL team is something they'd welcome, not only right now but well into the future.

Even if the Arena was approved tomorrow it would probably still be 3 years or so before it would open. The Pandemic should be long over by then (fingers crossed).

 

[StreetHawk]

Even if the Arena was approved tomorrow it would probably still be 3 years or so before it would open. The Pandemic should be long over by then (fingers crossed).

Lots of red tape before shovels hit the ground. Smaller arenas like this don’t take the typical 2 years that Rogers arena sized arenas would take. Cut it down by 6 months or so.

 

[wetcoast]

What's been the benefit to those 2 cities for their 6-7K arenas? Was it a wise investment?

For Abbotsford it sure wasn't as taxpayers were subsidizing it for a while (and perhaps even still are, heck I should probably look into it since I live there and pay taxes there)

 

[rypper]

What's been the benefit to those 2 cities for their 6-7K arenas? Was it a wise investment?

Having the Flames farm team in Canucks country was a resounding failure. Now though the arena attracts a lot of big name concerts and events. I've seen many musicians comedians etc there that you would have no problem selling out Rogers arena. Much more convenient living in the valley.

 

[elitepete]

Just what the Lower Mainland needs, another arena with a seating capacity of 8,000-10,000. Why? The AHL couldn't survive in Abbotsford; and the ECHL was a flop in Victoria. You can add in the Chilliwack Coliseum (5,500) and the Langley Events Center (5,700). Of course there's the venerable Pacific Coliseum (15,800). How many arenas does one metro region of 2.8m people really need?

I suppose the Giants could move to this new facility in Surrey. But you have to wonder when Surrey taxpayers are going step up and say 'no'. Surely that money can be better spent on improving the existing recreation facilities in a place that's growing as fast as Surrey.

I agree but as someone who lives in Surrey, I’ve always wanted our own WHL team (and not just moving the Giants here).

No idea if it is feasible though.

 

[VanJack]

Even if the Arena was approved tomorrow it would probably still be 3 years or so before it would open. The Pandemic should be long over by then (fingers crossed).

Yes, the Pandemic will be over by then. But the revenue black hole won't be. If the NHL has to go through another season without fans; or even with limited social-distancing seating, the economic impact on the league teams will be incalculable. The economic hangover will last for years.

And there's lots of other NHL owners whose businesses are bleeding red ink right now and that looks to continue well into 2021. So while COVID will probably be a thing of the past in three years, the economic hangover will last a lot longer than that.

I really wonder if any NHL owner--much less the Aqillini's, will be willing to underwrite a big budget increase for their AHL farm team.

The reason the AHL flopped in Abbotsford, wasn't just about attendance. It was more the debilitating cost of travel, with the taxpayers of Abbotsford underwriting all the team losses.

So while it would be great if the Canucks were willing to write a big check to increase the budget for their AHL team, I just can't see it happening.

 

[StreetHawk]

I think that when it comes down to it, having an AHL club here which would be so isolated from other teams makes it a no go. It would be different if EDM/CAL/SEA put their clubs in around the Pacific Northwest. Like if Seattle put theirs either in WA or OR, or if EDM/CAL opted for Idaho/Montana or something like that. But, the other 3 have or will have their AHL club in Cali, along with SJ, LA, Ana, and with LV's team around a 3.5 hour drive from SoCal and Tuscon a 6.5 hour drive from SoCal, I don't see putting a club in Surrey making much sense.

For those who attend Giants games, how are the crowds on the nights that the Canucks also have a home game? Do you notice a dip in the attendance?

I don't see FLA or TB showing any plans to move their A down to Orlando or Jacksonville for example (currently they are in Syracuse, NY and Springfield, MA). Yes, it would be great if the AHL team was close by, but a lot of other factors have to line up, like location of other clubs in the A and that isn't happening for the Pacific Northwest.

 

[Hit the post]

Yes, the Pandemic will be over by then. But the revenue black hole won't be. If the NHL has to go through another season without fans; or even with limited social-distancing seating, the economic impact on the league teams will be incalculable. The economic hangover will last for years.

And there's lots of other NHL owners whose businesses are bleeding red ink right now and that looks to continue well into 2021. So while COVID will probably be a thing of the past in three years, the economic hangover will last a lot longer than that.

I really wonder if any NHL owner--much less the Aqillini's, will be willing to underwrite a big budget increase for their AHL farm team.

The reason the AHL flopped in Abbotsford, wasn't just about attendance. It was more the debilitating cost of travel, with the taxpayers of Abbotsford underwriting all the team losses.

So while it would be great if the Canucks were willing to write a big check to increase the budget for their AHL team, I just can't see it happening.

I can see Aquaman writing the cheques to cobpver the losses but I highly doubt many others would - and that would be the problem. It’s just cheaper to run a team in the Northeast.

 

[CanuckleBerry]

This was my first thought as well.

Where is the need for this.

Also "downtown" Surrey is a misnomer, I know the area well it's almost all residential and municipal, heck even the biggest shopping district is Guilford not in the downtown.

but there is also alot of growth and transformation in the area as well as quite a bit of room for much more so time will tell.

Surrey is a much better option than Abbotsford. It’s one of the fastest growing cities in North America, and proximity wise, it’s closer to Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby, etc. I think an AHL team would do well in Surrey.

I’m surprised no WHL team has come to Surrey yet.

It's kind of strange that Abbotsford and Langley got big new arenas before Surrey did.

To be fair to the big picture here, a large multipurpose arena in Surrey is what should have happened first. Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley, it's like they were all competing for the same piece of Fraser Valley hockey pie. Building arenas of that size trying to attract the tenants they were was folly when the population centre with the most potential south of the Fraser was always going to be Surrey. This arena makes sense, it's the others that were poorly conceived. I would knock Surrey only for not having the ambition or foresight to have something like this planned sooner within a massively redeveloped city centre. If they do it right Surrey Central really can become Metro Vancouver's Oakland. As much as Burnaby wants that crown, it's Surrey's to take. A secondary business hub that makes a huge amount of geographic sense given how much the Fraser River segregates the region and causes transport congestion issues.

 

[wetcoast]

To be fair to the big picture here, a large multipurpose arena in Surrey is what should have happened first. Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley, it's like they were all competing for the same piece of Fraser Valley hockey pie. Building arenas of that size trying to attract the tenants they were was folly when the population centre with the most potential south of the Fraser was always going to be Surrey. This arena makes sense, it's the others that were poorly conceived. I would knock Surrey only for not having the ambition or foresight to have something like this planned sooner within a massively redeveloped city centre. If they do it right Surrey Central really can become Metro Vancouver's Oakland. As much as Burnaby wants that crown, it's Surrey's to take. A secondary business hub that makes a huge amount of geographic sense given how much the Fraser River segregates the region and causes transport congestion issues.

Chilliwack made sense since they built a 5000 seat arena and did well in the WHL.

Ownership decided the grass was greener in Victoria, which it was but that doesn't change the fact that the arena in Chilliwack was a good idea and did well.

Abbotsford was more dicey as the city subsidized the arena and relocation of Calgary's AHL team there.

It probably makes sense long term given it's central location in the fraser valley and growth of Abbotsford.

Langley is another 5000ish seat arena that makes some sense I guess.

10000 seats in surrey at this point would need a major tenant and seems redundant with the Pacific Coliseum basically sitting empty.

Perhaps the 10000 seat Surrey arena should have happened first but that would have been 20 years ago and the area were it is being proposed was really under developed at that time.

Burnaby has alot going for it economically and is more of a second hub to downtown Vancouver right now and time will tell is the Surrey hub will gain traction to surpass it.

One final note is that I think people forget how hard it is to travel form the Vancouver area to Surrey-Langley-Abbotsford-Chilliwack in the winter post covid.

 

[StreetHawk]

It’s a tough drive from Vancouver to anywhere east on a weekday.

Surrey arena would have to be off a sky train stop. Surrey Central has the mall, but I understand that the area around it is being developed for SFU campus with condos as well. And the Lions practice facility is right around there. Don’t know where it would be built to accommodate the parking for 2k vehicles.