Player Discussion Chris Kreider Part II: Manimal

[Miamipuck]

Jesus ****. What did I do today to piss everyone off?

Haha, just another day at the office for you. lmao.

 

[Synergy27]

There really isn't.

There's a desire to make people realize that shot-attempts are a valuable tool in the toolbox. That's really it.

I don't know man. I think everyone does agree with that.

This Kreider example is a perfect illustration of the issue. He's definitely not an elite player, but many want to push that he is because of that one area of his game, ignoring the overall results. I believe the motivation for this is a belief that the underlying numbers are suggesting there is more there, when the actual results are suggesting there isn't.

 

[silverfish]

Haha, just another day at the office for you. lmao.

Dude all I did was make a joke spreadsheet and say I think Nash is playing well despite only having 1 goal and people are out here barkin.

I don't know man. I think everyone does agree with that.

This Kreider example is a perfect illustration of the issue. He's definitely not an elite player, but many want to push that he is because of that one area of his game, ignoring the overall results. I believe the motivation for this is a belief that the underlying numbers are suggesting there is more there, when the actual results are suggesting there isn't.

I mean, @Machinehead is an adult and can answer to his own opinions but I surely doubt he believes Kreider is "elite" only due to his shot attempt metrics. Also, I don't know if I've even seen Machinehead say that about Kreider. It's possible he did.

There's this crazy thing called an 'opinion' that people are allowed to have. Saying Kreider is "elite" would be like the top 10% of takes on this site anyway.

 

[Miamipuck]

Dude all I did was make a joke spreadsheet and say I think Nash is playing well despite only having 1 goal and people are out here barkin.

Man just keep it up, I love well thought out contra thinking. SO you have at least 1 in your corner. I think there may be 2 or 3 more.....hahaha

I think Nash is a touchier subject than Pionk. There's no middle ground with Nash.

 

[silverfish]

Man just keep it up, I love well thought out contra thinking. SO you have at least 1 in your corner. I think there may be 2 or 3 more.....hahaha

I think Nash is a touchier subject than Pionk. There's no middle ground with Nash.

People are passionate about what they believe in. A lot of people don't like Nash. A lot of people really like Pionk. Such is life.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I know this isn't scientific evidence and could have been due to many factors, but the team playing well, then falling apart when Kreider got hurt, then playing relatively well compared to their talent when he got healthy again should point to the fact that maybe his impact on the team goes beyond goals and assists.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

There are elite face-off men. Are they elite players?

There are elite shot-blockers. Are they elite players?

If someone is to be described as an elite NHL forward, they are not 45 point players.

I'm unclear as to why this isn't a universal way of evaluation of the total player.

Faceoffs and shot blocks aren't really coveted things.

Kreider will have your team in the offensive zone a lot more than an average or below average possession player.

That will drive goal differential for your team over the course of a year, again compared to say someone like JT Miller.

I don't think anyone says Kreider is elite and i agree it would be nice to see him contribute more offensively.

 

[chosen]

really dude?


Silverfish, the poster you just quoted.

The ghost of Liberace is haunting me. I was never mad at Silverfish.

I find it to be patently absurd to refer to Kreider as an elite NHL player.

I said others here feel otherwise, never meaning Silverfish. That was pretty clear in my post.

Dude.

 

[Miamipuck]

The ghost of Liberace is haunting me. I was never mad at Silverfish.

I find it to be patently absurd to refer to Kreider as an elite NHL player.

I said others here feel otherwise, never meaning Silverfish. That was pretty clear in my post.

Dude.

Don't take offense, sometimes you're way too obtuse. Arguing whether Kreider is elite or not wasn't my point, nor did I say Silverfish thought otherwise. I was joking around, read what I wrote again.

 

[Machinehead]

"Elite" is just a word. There's no official club.

Kreider is elite at corsi, I believe, because he's top 10 at that.

He's elite in front of the net. Some metrics literally have him at #1 at that.

He's an elite two-way winger in the sense that very, very few players bring his mix of possession, defense, board play, offense, and a physical edge.

As a total package, is he an "elite" NHL player? I would say no.

But I don't understand the issue. Nobody has ever said he's a Hall of Fame player. What we have said is that he brings to the table a package that few players offer and he makes this team much better just by showing up. That's the truth.

If you want a player that does what Kreider does and scores at an elite rate on top of that, there's literally three - Patrice Bergeron, Sean Couturier, and Alex Ovechkin. Sorry he isn't that.

 

[Machinehead]

But I would also like to point out that Couturier was a 45 point player until the Flyers finally gave him first line even strength minutes, top teammates, and stuck with a line that was working.

I think it's worth a try.

 

[Profet]

I don't know man. I think everyone does agree with that.

This Kreider example is a perfect illustration of the issue. He's definitely not an elite player, but many want to push that he is because of that one area of his game, ignoring the overall results. I believe the motivation for this is a belief that the underlying numbers are suggesting there is more there, when the actual results are suggesting there isn't.

But... have you seen him jump out of a pool?

 

[Machinehead]

Kreider is an "intangibles" player (I think it's quite tangible, but work with me here) and it's backed up by numbers if you dig for them.

Callahan and Girardi were "intangibles" players who weren't backed up by anything tangible.

If Kreider was as loved as Callahan and Girardi were back in the day, I'd be a happy camper. But for some reason, we're actually harder on Kreider than the average player.

 

[Miamipuck]

Kreider is an "intangibles" player (I think it's quite tangible, but work with me here) and it's backed up by numbers if you dig for them.

Callahan and Girardi were "intangibles" players who weren't backed up by anything tangible.

If Kreider was as loved as Callahan and Girardi were back in the day, I'd be a happy camper. But for some reason, we're actually harder on Kreider than the average player.

It's not as simple as love and not loved. Girardi was a perceived warrior, couldn't play well but gave his all, Calalhan was more skilled than Girardi and perceived to give his all as well. Kreider has more athletic ability than those 2 combined but he's perceived as taking shifts/games off. Therein lies the problem, people's perceptions.

You appreciate different things in players than others. I guess that's what makes the forum's go around. I agree with you for the most part, I was not a fan of Girardi's, Callahan I liked but not at 6mill a year and the nonsense at the end. Kreider is a damn good player but he does leave you wanting more and has since college and the WJC's.

 

[Machinehead]

It's not as simple as love and not loved. Girardi was the warrior, couldn't play well but gave his all, Calalhan was more skilled than Girardi and gave his all as well. Kreider has more athletic ability than those 2 combined but he's perceived as taking shifts/games off. Therein lies the problem, people's perceptions.

You appreciate different things in players than others. I guess that's what makes the forum's go around. I agree with you for the most part, I was not a fan of Girardi's, Callahan I liked but not at 6mill a year and the nonsense at the end. Kreider is a damn good player but he does leave you wanting more and has since college and the WJC's.

I get that, because he's a great athlete, but I think people are blinded by that to an extent.

I'm not sure he has the hockey skills to give us more. Not a great shot, ok hands, bad passer. He's a good athlete and he makes it work.

 

[Miamipuck]

I get that, because he's a great athlete, but I think people are blinded by that to an extent.

I'm not sure he has the hockey skills to give us more. Not a great shot, ok hands, bad passer. He's a good athlete and he makes it work.

I think he's a much better passer than given credit and was proved later on in the year, his shot is fine. The funny thing is I don't doubt during the offseason there are many players working harder than him. It's weird that during games that never looks to be the case.

 

[Machinehead]

I think he's a much better passer than given credit and was proved later on in the year, his shot is fine. The funny thing is I don't doubt during the offseason there are many players working harder than him. It's weird that during games that never looks to be the case.

The players that have the puck most often have to work the least.

 

[Mikos87]

I just read some posts on page 1 of this thread. It's been 3 years and people here still repeat the same things about Chris.

What you saw is what you got. And it's been that way for 6 seasons.

 

[CasusBelli]

I know this isn't scientific evidence and could have been due to many factors, but the team playing well, then falling apart when Kreider got hurt, then playing relatively well compared to their talent when he got healthy again should point to the fact that maybe his impact on the team goes beyond goals and assists.

You get the impression that Captain Kreider is just a matter of time ...

I love how serious he is on the ice, how easygoing he is off the ice and how well he seems to mesh with his teammates in all situations. He's not a franchise player a la Crosby or Ovechkin, when it comes to skill and production, obviously. But you can't question his passion, dedication, discipline and--this is just a gut feeling--approachability. Those qualities, to me at least, are the marks of a great captain.

 

[chosen]

I just read some posts on page 1 of this thread. It's been 3 years and people here still repeat the same things about Chris.

What you saw is what you got. And it's been that way for 6 seasons.

And that's the problem.

 

[silverfish]

After his injury, Kreider was 4th on the team in 5v5 p/60 and first IN THE LEAGUE in relCF% and relSCF% (natural stat trick)

 

[Levitate]

Somehow every year seems like "well this will be the year Kreider is healthy and puts together that season we've been waiting for!"

I like Kreider a lot but it's funny how that's been the constant refrain for him. I don't blame him, just our expectations of him. That said I think he absolutely could hit 30 goals 60 points with a healthy season and linemates that also stay healthy, etc.

Will that be next year? I dunno, I'm afraid the team is gonna suck and it's always harder for players on struggling teams to produce as well as they're capable of.

BUt I do want Kreider to be one of the guys who sticks around

 

[Cag29]

"Elite" is just a word. There's no official club.

Kreider is elite at corsi, I believe, because he's top 10 at that.

He's elite in front of the net. Some metrics literally have him at #1 at that.

He's an elite two-way winger in the sense that very, very few players bring his mix of possession, defense, board play, offense, and a physical edge.

As a total package, is he an "elite" NHL player? I would say no.

But I don't understand the issue. Nobody has ever said he's a Hall of Fame player. What we have said is that he brings to the table a package that few players offer and he makes this team much better just by showing up. That's the truth.

If you want a player that does what Kreider does and scores at an elite rate on top of that, there's literally three - Patrice Bergeron, Sean Couturier, and Alex Ovechkin. Sorry he isn't that.

I think with Kreider we keep hoping he puts it all together , it would be awesome if he does. With our luck if we trade him he would do it for someone else.

 

[haveandare]

Somehow every year seems like "well this will be the year Kreider is healthy and puts together that season we've been waiting for!"

I like Kreider a lot but it's funny how that's been the constant refrain for him. I don't blame him, just our expectations of him. That said I think he absolutely could hit 30 goals 60 points with a healthy season and linemates that also stay healthy, etc.

Will that be next year? I dunno, I'm afraid the team is gonna suck and it's always harder for players on struggling teams to produce as well as they're capable of.

BUt I do want Kreider to be one of the guys who sticks around

It's not all that common, but some players do kick it up another notch comparatively later in their careers.

Sometimes being a top forward on a crappy team actually helps because you get a ton of toi especially on the pp. It can go either way really. I think if Zbad and Buch stay healthy Kreider can have a really big year, they'll probably be the first line and gets tons and tons of ice time. The crappiness of the team will be a problem if one of those line mates gets hurt, because there may not be a close equal player to step in.

 

[Levitate]

Well Kreider has always gotten a lot of icetime insomuch as anyone on AV's teams gets a lot of icetime. I wonder how Quinn will roll lines...