News Article: Chris Ilitch noncommittal on Holland’s return

[kliq]

It's not bias to say "Time's up" on a guy who has failed for 8 years.

that’s not what I am addressing though. I am comparing expectations on holland vs expectations on a new GM.

Wanting holland to continue as GM is a completely different question which is not what I am even talking about.

 

[Redder Winger]

that’s not what I am addressing though. I am comparing expectations on holland vs expectations on a new GM.

Wanting holland to continue as GM is a completely different question which is not what I am even talking about.

It's pretty obvious you are fishing for that.
"I'm trying to examine bias from the fans. If the questions above are the same answer, then I accept there is no bias. If they arent, or they arent answered I tend to think that the bias towards Holland is so extreme that it doesnt matter what he does."

 

[kliq]

It's pretty obvious you are fishing for that.
"I'm trying to examine bias from the fans. If the questions above are the same answer, then I accept there is no bias. If they arent, or they arent answered I tend to think that the bias towards Holland is so extreme that it doesnt matter what he does."

That’s my quote, Exactly....I want to to know what people want to see in the summer regardless of who the GM is. If people are unbiased, it should be about the result, not who’s pulling the trigger. Putting forward an expectation does not make you a holland fan, it’s simply putting forth an expectation.

I’m really not trying to trigger you, I am genuinely interested in what people expect and if there is a bias.

 

[Henkka]

How about show me an article from 2012 and beyond where an Ilitch says he's "win at all costs."
Or where anyone in the Wings organization says "the Ilitches want us to win at all costs."

And if the Ilitches were about "win at all costs," then Holland failed by trading for second and third rate veterans like Cole, Legwand, etc.

I understand your agenda. Everything Holland did or didn't, was a failure.

Keep bashing better. I'm quite bored for those childish comments from the same address.

Maybe have to consider ignore list again.

 

[Redder Winger]

I understand your agenda. Everything Holland did or didn't, was a failure.

Keep bashing better. I'm quite bored for those childish comments from the same address.

Maybe have to consider ignore list again.

I'm sure you'd rather I post about how all is going to the great masterplan than only you and Ken understand.

 

[Winger98]

What I am trying to understand, is if Holland stays on, what would Holland need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with his performance strictly this summer.
I also would like to know, if a new GM is hired, what would they need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with their performance this summer.

My problem with this line is that I think any GM we have would be fairly limited in his actions because of what Holland has already done. We're not going to be able to move guys like Gator, Helm, Nielsen, or Dekeyser and get anything resembling value back because of their contracts. At the same time, we can't go fishing on the trade market to try to get a package deal like Carolina got with Bickel/Teravainen because those guys are sitting on our cap, eating it up.

This is a big reason I'm pretty apathetic towards replacing Holland right now. What we'd really be looking for is a change in philosophy and personnel, but while being unlikely to see significant changes to the on-ice product for another couple of years when those contracts do become more easily moved. Right now, I think we're just fortunate that Holland so incompetently blew nearly $80 million on a roster he thought could contend for the playoffs and/or that Blashill is so lousy that he couldn't get anything close to that from this team.

 

[Red Stanley]

Oh boy here we go again ...

When people stop cherry picking quotes out of context, liberally paraphrasing, or straight up misquoting things he's said, then these kinds of discussions will have some semblance of worth. Until then don't let personal dislike for the guy get in the way of reading/listening comprehension.

 

[Redder Winger]

That’s my quote, Exactly....I want to to know what people want to see in the summer regardless of who the GM is. If people are unbiased, it should be about the result, not who’s pulling the trigger. Putting forward an expectation does not make you a holland fan, it’s simply putting forth an expectation.

I’m really not trying to trigger you, I am genuinely interested in what people expect and if there is a bias.

It's not bias.
If you hire a waiter and he's great for 10 years but then he spends the next 10 years getting worse every year, it's not bias to say "time's up" and find a new waiter.
It's saying "time's up." We've given you plenty of time to turn it around and show us that you're competent, and you've failed to do so.

Besides, your question doesn't make a ton of sense.

Don't you think people who want a new GM would expect a change in direction?

If Holland's back, I expect:
1) Blashill will be back.
2) Massive commitment to Larkin - likely an overpay. He's never underpayed yet on one of his Michigan guys.
3) 50/50 chance Green returns.
4) Spending to the cap or close to it despite being nowhere near good enough to make the playoffs.

What I want is:
1) Blashill fired.
2) Emphasis on skill and puck possession players (not CF% - real puck possession) in the draft.
3) Smart deals to Larkin, Mantha and AA. No 8 year deal for Larkin unless it's on a real team-friendly cap hit. Short deals for Mantha and AA.
4) Explore the possibility of Tavares on July 1. Put yourself in a position to afford him. And if you can't, no biggie. Don't waste the cap space on veteran garbage.
5) Exploring every opportunity to dump veteran salary before the draft, in the offseason and during the season. A lot of this depends on Tavares, but that's unlikely. If you don't land Tavares your priorities for movement should be Nielsen, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Daley. But the likelihood is that 2 of these players would have needed to be gone to sign JT anyway.
6) Use youth in their place.
7) Take risks on skill in the draft.
8) Be a heavy player in the summer of 2019 for OEL, Karlsson or Doughty. This will mean shaving more salary.
9) Take chances on Russian leaguers.

You've got to be dynamic. You can be rebuilding while loading up on high profile UFAs.

Ken Holland won't do that. And even if he did, he wouldn't do it for the right reasons.

 

[Redder Winger]

My problem with this line is that I think any GM we have would be fairly limited in his actions because of what Holland has already done. We're not going to be able to move guys like Gator, Helm, Nielsen, or Dekeyser and get anything resembling value back because of their contracts. At the same time, we can't go fishing on the trade market to try to get a package deal like Carolina got with Bickel/Teravainen because those guys are sitting on our cap, eating it up.

This is a big reason I'm pretty apathetic towards replacing Holland right now. What we'd really be looking for is a change in philosophy and personnel, but while being unlikely to see significant changes to the on-ice product for another couple of years when those contracts do become more easily moved. Right now, I think we're just fortunate that Holland so incompetently blew nearly $80 million on a roster he thought could contend for the playoffs and/or that Blashill is so lousy that he couldn't get anything close to that from this team.

You can move these guys.
You could trade Ericsson if you eat $1M.
You could trade Helm if you eat $1M.
Same, probably, with Nielsen.

A new GM comes in and aggressively announces he's open for business, he can make moves without giving away prospects.

 

[Winger98]

You can move these guys.
You could trade Ericsson if you eat $1M.
You could trade Helm if you eat $1M.
Same, probably, with Nielsen.

A new GM comes in and aggressively announces he's open for business, he can make moves without giving away prospects.

Ericsson only has two years left and just had a decent year. I don't doubt we could move him, especially if we kept a million in cap. I don't think you can move Helm or Nielsen, though. I mean, if you want to take a fourth rounder back, sure. But that's the point. We'd be better off waiting another year, still be willing to retain, and then maybe get a 2nd or better. I really don't think teams are interested in locking into any of these guys for 3+ years, even at lower rates.

 

[Redder Winger]

Ericsson only has two years left and just had a decent year. I don't doubt we could move him, especially if we kept a million in cap. I don't think you can move Helm or Nielsen, though. I mean, if you want to take a fourth rounder back, sure. But that's the point. We'd be better off waiting another year, still be willing to retain, and then maybe get a 2nd or better. I really don't think teams are interested in locking into any of these guys for 3+ years, even at lower rates.

There are two points, Winger98.
1) You're freeing up spots in the top 9 for Rasmussen, Svechnikov and AA. And freeing up space on your D for Cholowski or Hronek or Hicketts. With Kronwall/Z nearing the end, we need people to step up and be ready ASAP.
2) You're saving $4.2M on Nielsen, $2,8M on Helm and $3.25M on Ericsson. That's $10.25M you can use to entice Tavares or Karlsson or OEL or Doughty or someone good enough and young enough to build around, along with Larkin and Rasmussen and whoever else we draft.

I'd also say there's a 3rd point.
You're telling everyone in the organization that the era of loyalty contracts is over. If you want to get paid, you need to produce.

 

[jkutswings]

As another point, I don't think it's right to assume that a new GM and Holland should have the same expectations, or, for that matter, be given the same latitude from the fans. Holland has an extensive history with this team, both good and bad, and that SHOULD play a role in how people view his moves going forward, if he were to remain the GM.

If I detest the way Holland believes the team should be run - or at least how he chooses to make decisions within his marching orders from ownership - why would I hold the same expectations for him as I would for his replacement?

 

[kliq]

It's not bias.
If you hire a waiter and he's great for 10 years but then he spends the next 10 years getting worse every year, it's not bias to say "time's up" and find a new waiter.
It's saying "time's up." We've given you plenty of time to turn it around and show us that you're competent, and you've failed to do so.

Besides, your question doesn't make a ton of sense.

Don't you think people who want a new GM would expect a change in direction?

If Holland's back, I expect:
1) Blashill will be back.
2) Massive commitment to Larkin - likely an overpay. He's never underpayed yet on one of his Michigan guys.
3) 50/50 chance Green returns.
4) Spending to the cap or close to it despite being nowhere near good enough to make the playoffs.

What I want is:
1) Blashill fired.
2) Emphasis on skill and puck possession players (not CF% - real puck possession) in the draft.
3) Smart deals to Larkin, Mantha and AA. No 8 year deal for Larkin unless it's on a real team-friendly cap hit. Short deals for Mantha and AA.
4) Explore the possibility of Tavares on July 1. Put yourself in a position to afford him. And if you can't, no biggie. Don't waste the cap space on veteran garbage.
5) Exploring every opportunity to dump veteran salary before the draft, in the offseason and during the season. A lot of this depends on Tavares, but that's unlikely. If you don't land Tavares your priorities for movement should be Nielsen, Helm, Howard, Ericsson, Daley. But the likelihood is that 2 of these players would have needed to be gone to sign JT anyway.
6) Use youth in their place.
7) Take risks on skill in the draft.
8) Be a heavy player in the summer of 2019 for OEL, Karlsson or Doughty. This will mean shaving more salary.
9) Take chances on Russian leaguers.

You've got to be dynamic. You can be rebuilding while loading up on high profile UFAs.

Ken Holland won't do that. And even if he did, he wouldn't do it for the right reasons.

First Bold: Agreed, that's not what I mean. Your example is not an example of bias. We agree on that. It would not be bias to say time's up and find a new waiter.

Second Bold: Yes, they likely would expect a change in direction. Agreed.

Third Bold: Thank you, that's all I was asking.

So to my point, you gave what you want. If Holland does all those things and you criticize him, I believe there is a bias. If he does all those things and you don't criticize him, you don't have a bias.

Criticizing Holland's past accomplishments is not a bias. Saying you want Holland gone, does not mean you have a bias. If Holland stays even if you don't want him to but he changes his approach and does what you want and you still criticize him, that's a bias. I'm not even saying you have a bias, that's not my point at all.
I want to see what people want, and then I will be interested in their reaction IF Holland gives that to them.

You can move these guys.
You could trade Ericsson if you eat $1M.
You could trade Helm if you eat $1M.
Same, probably, with Nielsen.

A new GM comes in and aggressively announces he's open for business, he can make moves without giving away prospects.

I think you are right, these are all moves I would like to see. Nielsen may be tough though. IMO (and I admit this is pure speculation) I think Holland or whomever is going to use Nielsen to recruit JT. If you do that, you really can't ship out Nielsen as soon as you get JT. Now if we don't get JT, move him.

 

[kliq]

As another point, I don't think it's right to assume that a new GM and Holland should have the same expectations, or, for that matter, be given the same latitude from the fans. Holland has an extensive history with this team, both good and bad, and that SHOULD play a role in how people view his moves going forward, if he were to remain the GM.

If I detest the way Holland believes the team should be run - or at least how he chooses to make decisions within his marching orders from ownership - why would I hold the same expectations for him as I would for his replacement?

Here is my thing, we as fans have no choice in who runs this team. If Holland returns which is very likely, rather then focus energy on the past (good and bad) I would prefer to focus on what I want to see moving forward. Take emotion out of it, and lets put forth the direction we want to see. That's just me though.

 

[Red Stanley]

Here is my thing, we as fans have no choice in who runs this team. If Holland returns which is very likely, rather then focus energy on the past (good and bad) I would prefer to focus on what I want to see moving forward. Take emotion out of it, and lets put forth the direction we want to see. That's just me though.

What I would like to see happen, Holland or not, is a much accelerated integration of young players. I believe this is inevitable as we move up the draft. I'd also like to see the organization invest HEAVILY in scouting. They may have a salary cap for players, but not for staff. What I absolutely do not want to see anymore is long burdensome contracts for non-star players. I am OK with picking up a vet here and there ONLY if it's for the purpose of flipping them for futures asap. I don't think any of those are unreasonable to want or even to expect and they'll go a long way toward revitalizing the team.

 

[datsyukfan]

Anybody know anything about this Daniel Brickley kid we are supposedly in on?

 

[Winger98]

There are two points, Winger98.
1) You're freeing up spots in the top 9 for Rasmussen, Svechnikov and AA. And freeing up space on your D for Cholowski or Hronek or Hicketts. With Kronwall/Z nearing the end, we need people to step up and be ready ASAP.
2) You're saving $4.2M on Nielsen, $2,8M on Helm and $3.25M on Ericsson. That's $10.25M you can use to entice Tavares or Karlsson or OEL or Doughty or someone good enough and young enough to build around, along with Larkin and Rasmussen and whoever else we draft.

I'd also say there's a 3rd point.
You're telling everyone in the organization that the era of loyalty contracts is over. If you want to get paid, you need to produce.

1. I think those spots are already available if the Wings cared to use them. This past year, they could have just no signed Daley. This offseason they could just not sign someone to take Green's spot. Or they could kick a 26/27 year old Jensen to the curb. Up front, move Helm and Gator down the lineup. I think it's more telling of Detroit that they were looking to move Tatar/Nyquist to reportedly fit Ras/Svech next year than looking to just move a couple of vets onto a "fourth" line. I'm not complaining about the return we got on Tatar, but that's where trade talk for him seemed to originate on Detroit's end.

2. I still don't think the first two guys on that list are movable yet. You'll save some money on Ericsson, which might keep us from using Franzen's LTIR thing to start the season.

3. also, I know we'd probably hate to admit it, but the whole Nielsen/Helm/Ericsson/Gator (yeah I'm adding him) group didn't have bad years. Overpaid? Probably all, to various extents. If we want Nielsen to produce more, don't put him out there as a third line shutdown center.

 

[Winger98]

What I would like to see happen, Holland or not, is a much accelerated integration of young players. I believe this is inevitable as we move up the draft. I'd also like to see the organization invest HEAVILY in scouting. They may have a salary cap for players, but not for staff. What I absolutely do not want to see anymore is long burdensome contracts for non-star players. I am OK with picking up a vet here and there ONLY if it's for the purpose of flipping them for futures asap. I don't think any of those are unreasonable to want or even to expect and they'll go a long way toward revitalizing the team.

It's a good point that if we draft much higher for a few years here, those guys are probably making the team in pretty short order. If we somehow landed in the top2, is there any way that Dahlin or Svechnikov wouldn't be on this team in the fall? I think they'd be locks.

 

[aar000n]

Report: Craig Custance Gives Insight on Holland’s Future “If Ken (Holland) didn’t get a three year extension, I’d be shocked,” Wonderful

 

[jkutswings]

Report: Craig Custance Gives Insight on Holland’s Future “If Ken (Holland) didn’t get a three year extension, I’d be shocked,” Wonderful

 

[Red Stanley]

Report: Craig Custance Gives Insight on Holland’s Future “If Ken (Holland) didn’t get a three year extension, I’d be shocked,” Wonderful

Counting forward from last year, that'll make it a 5-year plan. Fair amount of time to show what you can do with a rebuild. If he's indeed extended for another 3 years, I'll reserve final judgment till then.

 

[Redder Winger]

1. I think those spots are already available if the Wings cared to use them. This past year, they could have just no signed Daley. This offseason they could just not sign someone to take Green's spot. Or they could kick a 26/27 year old Jensen to the curb. Up front, move Helm and Gator down the lineup. I think it's more telling of Detroit that they were looking to move Tatar/Nyquist to reportedly fit Ras/Svech next year than looking to just move a couple of vets onto a "fourth" line. I'm not complaining about the return we got on Tatar, but that's where trade talk for him seemed to originate on Detroit's end.

2. I still don't think the first two guys on that list are movable yet. You'll save some money on Ericsson, which might keep us from using Franzen's LTIR thing to start the season.

3. also, I know we'd probably hate to admit it, but the whole Nielsen/Helm/Ericsson/Gator (yeah I'm adding him) group didn't have bad years. Overpaid? Probably all, to various extents. If we want Nielsen to produce more, don't put him out there as a third line shutdown center.

But they did sign Daley.
But AA is often only playing 12-14 minutes.
Svech is playing 8 minutes.
Hronek hasn't played at all.
Hicketts has played once.

I think Helm would have value to some team at 3 years, $2,8M.
Nielsen is probably the hardest sell. But you're cutting him down to 4 years, $4M.
And Ericsson is getting cut down to 2 years, $3.25M
Those are manageable contracts for a contender looking for depth.

And yeah, Ericsson has been better this year than last, despite the fact he's still prone to horrible gaffes.
And I'm sure Nielsen could probably score more. than the 30 points he's posted thus far.
Id be willing to strongly encourage the new coach to ride him on the top line and first unit PP for the first 2 months of the season to make it happen and increase his trade value.

 

[Redder Winger]

First Bold:
I want to see what people want, and then I will be interested in their reaction IF Holland gives that to them.

There's no way to ever see this.
Unless Holland is retained and does exactly what I said.

 

[Redder Winger]

When does Elliote Friedman ever get called out for using other people's work as his own?
Geez. He steals other people's work and phrases on a regular basis and claims the ideas/words as his own,

He did this earlier this year when he ripped off the Sheahan trade idea from the Pittsburgh beat writer who reported the rumor. After the Pittsburgh beat writer reported it, Friedman says something like "I think it would make sense if Detroit traded Sheahan to Pittsburgh for (whatever the name of that defenseman was)."

Tonight, when talking about Holland, he says... "I think we'll have clarity soon." Basically taking Custance's words verbatim. He rephrased another Custance line in the story.

All he'd have to do is say "Well, Custance reported that... and I think it makes sense."

Instead he acts like the knowledge is coming from him.

 

[kliq]

There's no way to ever see this.
Unless Holland is retained and does exactly what I said.

I thought that was obvious, yes.
If he makes the moves you wanted, and you give him credit you are not biased.
If he makes the moves you wanted and you change your tune and rip him, you are biased.
He doesnt need to make every single one to see that.

Either way, this wasn't specifically about you. You just happened to chime in, I meant this more across the board.