News Article: Chris Ilitch noncommittal on Holland’s return

[Redder Winger]

Do I have to call for Mike Ilitch or what do you mean?

How about show me an article from 2012 and beyond where an Ilitch says he's "win at all costs."
Or where anyone in the Wings organization says "the Ilitches want us to win at all costs."

And if the Ilitches were about "win at all costs," then Holland failed by trading for second and third rate veterans like Cole, Legwand, etc.

 

[kliq]

How about show me an article from 2012 and beyond where an Ilitch says he's "win at all costs."
Or where anyone in the Wings organization says "the Ilitches want us to win at all costs."

And if the Ilitches were about "win at all costs," then Holland failed by trading for second and third rate veterans like Cole, Legwand, etc.

I feel that the only people who should have to link a source are those who are stating things as "facts". I am not, I am saying my opinion.

Those who say "Illitch instructed Holland on all his moves" should cite a source.
Those who say "Holland had 100% ultimate say" should cite their source.

 

[Redder Winger]

I dont see it as an excuse. He made mistakes, I'm not denying that.
I just don't buy that ownership has nothing to do with anything. I have never worked in a business, or with other businesses where ownership has zero say. Maybe you have, I dont know. But I have never seen it and this is the world I work in.

I feel that people think that saying ownership give direction means that Holland made no mistakes. Not the case.

Sorry, but that's not evidence of anything.
I can point to many business that are run by managers who are trusted to know when to buy and when to sell and chart the course. I can point to businesses that are micromanaged.

The "ownership wanted Kenny to win" is just nonsense.

I've seen the articles about the Tigers going all in to win a world series for Mr. I.
I've not read the articles about Ilitch demanding the Red Wings keep their playoff streak going - even if it means a longer, harder rebuild.

 

[kliq]

Sorry, but that's not evidence of anything.
I can point to many business that are run by managers who are trusted to know when to buy and when to sell.

The "ownership wanted Kenny to win" is just nonsense.

I've seen the articles about the Tigers going all in to win a world series for Mr. I.
I've not read the articles about Ilitch demanding the Red Wings keep their playoff streak going - even if it means a longer, harder rebuild.

I didnt claim I had evidence. I'm basing my opinion on common sense.
I get you have a ridiculous bias against Holland, and anything not bashing him in your eyes is "pro Holland" so I'm just going to stop the debate here. I see your view.

 

[Redder Winger]

I feel that the only people who should have to link a source are those who are stating things as "facts". I am not, I am saying my opinion.

Those who say "Illitch instructed Holland on all his moves" should cite a source.
Those who say "Holland had 100% ultimate say" should cite their source.

That's great.
So I'm going to start saying the Easter Bunny is calling the shots until I see a link.

I have quotes from Ken Holland showing his opinions on rebuilds.
Quotes from this season. Last season. The year before.

I don't have any quotes from the Ilitches in the last 4-5 years.'

I'm basing my opinion on evidence. Not easter bunnies.

 

[kliq]

That's great.
So I'm going to start saying the Easter Bunny is calling the shots until I see a link.

I have quotes from Ken Holland showing his opinions on rebuilds.
Quotes from this season. Last season. The year before.

I don't have any quotes from the Ilitches in the last 4-5 years.'

I'm basing my opinion on evidence. Not easter bunnies.

Cool, I'm glad you don't base opinions on Easter bunnies. Like I said, your stance is clear.

 

[Redder Winger]

https://deadspin.com/the-dynasty-that-ate-itself-1794385282

Some who have seen Holland work believe he simply doesn’t have any other strategy besides win now.

“If Holland was competent enough to figure out that the rebuild is going to take more than a year, then maybe they could possibly trust him with all of his years of experience and all of his connections,” said one person who used to work for the Ilitches and requested anonymity for fear of retribution. “Maybe he could do a good job of having a turnaround in three to five years. But he is absolutely against it. He wants, like, a one-year turnaround. Which means he’s probably going to go and blow money on old veteran players and his usual crap. So I just, I think it’s one of those things where they know he’s not going to change and he hasn’t really been forced to change in the past.”

 

[Redder Winger]

Yeah not sure it makes sense to talk about winning culture when you have the worst ROW in the league. Time to stop living in the past, Holland has cratered the franchise and we have a long way to go to become competitive. We're due for a good housecleaning in the front office, but it sure sounds like Holland wants to stick around to "make it right". That's a 10 year mistake IMO.

Red Wings have won more than they've lost twice in six years.

Like I've been saying.
There was a window for "rebuild on the fly."
That was 2010-14.
And it was no sure thing.
Holland didn't start talking about "rebuild on the fly" until when? 2016? A year when Blashill played Brad Richards more minutes than Jurco and Pulkkinen combined.

I think a rebuild can be quicker than 10 years.
You get lucky in the lottery this year and hit on your other top 40 picks, and then you hit next year, you could be in pretty good shape.-- Holland or no Holland.

But if you don't get lucky in the lottery... Detroit could easily find itself in Calgary Flames mode. Getting in the playoffs every once in awhile, never being a contender, and mostly losing -- for a long time.

 

[Run the Jewels]

What gives you any indication that he would change his plan? He's been ultra consistent with his message. He isn't changing anything bro.

Guys in their mid 60s are well known for being super open minded and open to change!

 

[StargateSG1]

Guys in their mid 60s are well known for being super open minded and open to change!

Consider the source...
It's the same few idiots who insisted Wings are definitely the playoff team in the summer, and quickly started claiming that it's a "Stealth Tank" after it started going south, during the first losing streak.

 

[Pavels Dog]

“When you look at these teams that you might think are the best teams in the National Hockey League, some of these teams made the playoffs maybe once in 10 years before they went into this run,” Holland said, “or they missed the playoffs five straight years.
“I’m not doing that,” Holland said.

Ken Holland Doesn't Think The Red Wings Need A 'Rebuild'

“I think we want to be competitive,” Red Wings GM Ken Holland said on Prime Time Sports Thursday evening. “I’m a general manager and as long as I’m a general manager I want us to be the very best we can be. I don’t believe in tear downs and massive rebuilds because I don’t believe you can just guarantee the end result is going to turn out to be Stanley Cups and dynasties. You could go in the wilderness.

Red Wings GM: 'I don't believe in tear downs and massive rebuilds' - Sportsnet.ca

Are those out of context? Or did Holland do an about-face when he realized he built a terrible roster?

He’s essentially talking about tanking. Surely you see that?

Not wanting to deliberately tear the team down to bottom out is not the same thing as not believing in rebuilds.

 

[jkutswings]

Not wanting to deliberately tear the team down to bottom out is not the same thing as not believing in rebuilds.

True. But either way, I no longer believe in Ken Holland.

 

[StargateSG1]

True. But either way, I no longer believe in Ken Holland.

He is ON RECORD saying he doesn't believe in rebuilds, because they take 10 years.
Don't listen to Kenny's fanboys.

 

[Run the Jewels]

He is ON RECORD saying he doesn't believe in rebuilds, because they take 10 years.
Don't listen to Kenny's fanboys.

Just kinda getting into rebuilds after retool on the fly failed miserably. Maybe in 10 years we'll know how the rebuild worked out when run by a guy who said he's totally opposed to a rebuild.

Hard pass.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

He’s essentially talking about tanking. Surely you see that?

Not wanting to deliberately tear the team down to bottom out is not the same thing as not believing in rebuilds.

But he's talking about how being in the basement with little roster talent and building from there is something he doesn't want to do. Which is exactly what the Wings are going to be doing. They didn't tank to get to the bottom, but they're at the bottom nonetheless.

I don't think there's any reading here where Holland is ready and willing to see through a 5 year+ rebuild. He's talking rebuild now, but for how long? Is he going to try to sign big UFAs this off-season? Next? I just don't think I can trust him to do the right thing. Not when he seems to have such a distaste for the job to be done. I'm concerned he'll do it fast rather than do it right.

I'd rather go with someone with the right philosophy from the beginning, like a Draper. He's not a Ken Holland, but having the wrong plan could be more damaging than having a less talented GM. And Yzerman was in this position once, too. You never know how these new GMs will turn out.

 

[Frk It]

Holland has done a good job at the last 2 trade deadlines. He’s finally talking about re-building openly and I don’t have any issues with what he’s said lately. I think he’s doing mostly what he should be doing, just not sure the Holland/Wright duo is the best duo to navigate the draft.

I’ll live with it if Holland is extended, but strictly for discussion’s sake I think it would do this place a world of good if we got a new GM. Things are so divisive with Holland and we just re-hash the same discussions.

 

[StargateSG1]

Holland has done a good job at the last 2 trade deadlines. He’s finally talking about re-building openly and I don’t have any issues with what he’s said lately. I think he’s doing mostly what he should be doing, just not sure the Holland/Wright duo is the best duo to navigate the draft.

I’ll live with it if Holland is extended, but strictly for discussion’s sake I think it would do this place a world of good if we got a new GM. Things are so divisive with Holland and we just re-hash the same discussions.

No, he didn't, trading 1 player is not enough.
Just look at what the Rangers did and tell me that again.
Doing the bare minimum will make this make belief "rebuild" last 20 years.

 

[kliq]

Sorry, but that's not evidence of anything.
I can point to many business that are run by managers who are trusted to know when to buy and when to sell and chart the course. I can point to businesses that are micromanaged.

The "ownership wanted Kenny to win" is just nonsense.

I've seen the articles about the Tigers going all in to win a world series for Mr. I.
I've not read the articles about Ilitch demanding the Red Wings keep their playoff streak going - even if it means a longer, harder rebuild.

I re-read your comments here, and I'm willing to hear you out.

Can you point to these business? So, for clarification what I am talking about is a business where the ownership has zero say on anything, and management 100% run the show and dictate the big picture direction of the company.

If you can point to "many businesses" this question should be simple for you.

An owner micromanaging and an owner having say on the big picture are not the same thing for clarification.

 

[jkutswings]

Things are so divisive with Holland and we just re-hash the same discussions.

You make it sound like they traded a first round pick in exchange for Quincy telling Suter not to come here, while Abdelkader's 20 year contract prevented them from drafting any defensemen who weren't related to Dan Cleary's best friend, David Legwand.

Did I do that correctly?

 

[kliq]

No, he didn't, trading 1 player is not enough.
Just look at what the Rangers did and tell me that again.
Doing the bare minimum will make this make belief "rebuild" last 20 years.

So this summer....what is your expectation of Holland?

If we bring on a new GM, same question?

 

[StargateSG1]

So this summer....what is your expectation of Holland?

If we bring on a new GM, same question?

Clean the house, top to bottom.
Only expectation I have.
2nd OLDEST team in the NHL during the "rebuild".
That's just insane.

 

[kliq]

Clean the house, top to bottom.
Only expectation I have.
2nd OLDEST team in the NHL during the "rebuild".
That's just insane.

Can you be more specific? I assume you don’t expect every roster player traded. Names?

 

[StargateSG1]

Can you be more specific? I assume you don’t expect every roster player traded. Names?

That would take too long...
Bring in someone who will re-evaluate the entire roster, without any bios
of prior connections, based strictly on the business sense and hockey merits going forward.
Go from there.
Front office should be entirely gone, starting with Kenny and going as far as the last scout they employ, with the exception of Hakan Andersson.

 

[kliq]

That would take too long...
Bring in someone who will re-evaluate the entire roster, without any bios
of prior connections, based strictly on the business sense and hockey merits going forward.
Go from there.
Front office should be entirely gone, starting with Kenny and going as far as the last scout they employ, with the exception of Hakan Andersson.

Ya I know you hate Holland, thats not my point.

What I am trying to understand, is if Holland stays on, what would Holland need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with his performance strictly this summer.
I also would like to know, if a new GM is hired, what would they need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with their performance this summer.

I'm trying to examine bias from the fans. If the questions above are the same answer, then I accept there is no bias. If they arent, or they arent answered I tend to think that the bias towards Holland is so extreme that it doesnt matter what he does.

I'm just talking players, not front office staff. I want to know what your expectations of the GM are.

 

[Redder Winger]

Ya I know you hate Holland, thats not my point.

What I am trying to understand, is if Holland stays on, what would Holland need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with his performance strictly this summer.
I also would like to know, if a new GM is hired, what would they need to do this Summer to make you satisfied with their performance this summer.

I'm trying to examine bias from the fans. If the questions above are the same answer, then I accept there is no bias. If they arent, or they arent answered I tend to think that the bias towards Holland is so extreme that it doesnt matter what he does.

I'm just talking players, not front office staff. I want to know what your expectations of the GM are.

It's not bias to say "Time's up" on a guy who has failed for 8 years.