TSN: Cheveldayoff: Playoff Success Not A Given (see mod warning in OP)

MrBoJangelz71

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[mod] Why can we not consider Chevy a good GM while acknowledging his mistakes? He has not been perfect. He has brought the team a long way from where it was 4 years ago. That is the ultimate criteria for judging a GM, the state of the team and the system.

I've acknowledged that there are negatives on his resume, just like every GM that has ever operated in a professional sport, ever in the history of sports.

[mod] When the best mistakes are minor mistakes, trying to paint them differently looks somewhat desperate. And to that, if these are the best examples some have, why not feel good knowing that Chevy's worst deal wouldn't even register on a list of worst deals over the past 5 seasons.
 
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Whileee

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[mod] Why can we not consider Chevy a good GM while acknowledging his mistakes? He has not been perfect. He has brought the team a long way from where it was 4 years ago. That is the ultimate criteria for judging a GM, the state of the team and the system.

Conversely, it seems that some posters can't accept anything positive about Chevy. One coin - two sides.

I have no problem identifying mistakes, but don't agree with some alleged "mistakes" (like not signing Stemp or Tlusty). It's just that some posters seem to find mistakes in everything.
 
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CaptainChef

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Pavs fan. I would have liked to have seen our goalie problem rectified sooner, but the contract is no longer the unmovable boat anchor that people thought it was last year. If Pavs is decent we may be able to get an asset or two back from dealing him, which to me is preferable to buying him out.

That is the encouraging part to the Pavs saga. If you are indeed right, that he is the 5th lowest paid starter in the league, all we really need is for him to have a decent ~.915 season.

Might be a tall order, but if that happens I just really hope the Jets seize their opportunity to rid themselves of that 3.9mil & move Helle up. Not only will they have a better, cheaper tandem, but they'll have some much-needed extra $ for re-signing the rooks.
 

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Disagree. Read many posts outlining things about Chevy, that are not part of a GM's role. Addressing dressing room problems at the ground level and player usage, to name a couple.

Not sure he was blaming Maurice, but suggesting that he was heavily consulted and provided definite input for Chevy to chew on, as every good coach/GM relationship does.

And guaranteed when it came to Stuart, the signing had to do with his role as a leader, mentor and vet presence that sets the type of examples on and off the ice, that you want your young players to watch and learn from.

Stuart will retire with this team, and most likely find a role with the organization afterwards. He may not be the most talented Dman out there, but his work ethic and professionalism is the exact type that Chipman and Chevy want around these younger players. You can knock Stewart and his contract all you want, but I feel pretty confident that every young player on the roster, looks up to him, respect him and follow his work ethic. Maybe some don't see value in that, but a smart organization understands that culture is developed by players like Stuart, and a solid culture is a must if you want to sniff a cup.

As much as Stu pains me on the ice sometimes, I totally agree with this. It took me a while to come around to this, but I really feel that you need some of this on any team in any sport. You can have team full of really talented players, but if there isn't a peer there to kick their ***** in the weight room and the dressing room, they will coast. History is full of athletes with great physical/athletic gifts who just never had that leadership to help them take full advantage, so they coasted on their natural ability.

Many times people think they are working hard, but in reality they could develop better work ethic, and people like Stu are perfect for that. You can't build a team without someone to help direct the culture of the room.
 

CaptainChef

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Conversely, it seems that some posters can't accept anything positive about Chevy. One coin - two sides.

I have no problem identifying mistakes, but don't agree with some alleged "mistakes" (like not signing Stemp or Tlusty). It's just that some posters seem to find mistakes in everything.

I think there is a happy middle ground being reached here -everyone acknowledging that nobodies perfect & that Chevy makes mistakes too. The challenge I see is for Chevy to acknowledge that he makes mistakes as well & be ready to reverse the ship should we be approaching an iceberg. In the past, I find he has been quite reluctant to change course once a mistake has been made (the best example I can cite is his unwillingness to bring in a suitable challenger to Pavs once it was apparent he was not performing up to his big contract -- yes he finally brought in Hutch but that was 3 years later & Hutch was just a rookie so that was hardly a serious challenge).

One other comment for clarity re: not signing Stemp & Tlusty. The mistake was not so much that he didn't sign one of those guys, its who he signed instead (Hali & Peluso). Its been pointed out by others, but imagine this team with Stemp & Tlusty as our depth players rather then Hali & Peluso -- night & day difference right.

The beauty of having Stemp & Tlusty would be that it would be that much tougher for our good prospects to crack the line-up until the injuries started -- as they always do.

So we'd start the season with a dang good line-up that included 1-2 rooks, and when injuries or poor play of some vets happened, other rooks would be called up. That to me is the ultimate win-win
 

CaptainChef

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As much as Stu pains me on the ice sometimes, I totally agree with this. It took me a while to come around to this, but I really feel that you need some of this on any team in any sport. You can have team full of really talented players, but if there isn't a peer there to kick their ***** in the weight room and the dressing room, they will coast. History is full of athletes with great physical/athletic gifts who just never had that leadership to help them take full advantage, so they coasted on their natural ability.

Many times people think they are working hard, but in reality they could develop better work ethic, and people like Stu are perfect for that. You can't build a team without someone to help direct the culture of the room.

I really like Stu for that too, so in my mind it was a good signing. Its Maurice's usage of Stu (insisting he be in the top 4) that draws the ire of all.
 

MrBoJangelz71

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The argument that "oh, everyone does it" doesn't really hold water. But the big problem isn't that Chevy made some bad decisions - it's his foot dragging when it comes to fixing the problems. Letting the clock run out on a 5 year deal hoping you get a couple of good years out of it isn't dealing with your mistakes. At least Jokinen was only a terrible 2-year deal. Letting the Kane situation fester for 3.5 years...taking 2.5 years to evaluate the team (and then bringing in Maurice to help out some more with the evaluating). I don't think there's a GM in the league who takes so much time...what is he, an Ent?

Yes it does. It shows us a measurement to which we should gauge our operations. If one is to expect operations to occur without mistakes, then one is out to lunch and should recalibrate their expectations to what reality dictates. Every organization has blemishes, even the best ones.

He didn't deal with the 5 year mistake, because he does not see it as a mistake. And according to last season, he was right in doing so, as his mistake operated at an above average level.

Kane deal worked out exactly as well as we could have hoped for. Great return, solid move, not much else to discuss. Your timeline, or your observation that this "festered" are "your analyses" of a situation you only understand, maybe 5% of. In the end, the return was excellent, that is factual. You believing that Kane was a detriment to this organization 3 seasons ago, is pure speculation, as you do not know.

So, you do not think GM's spend years evaluating?

Evaluating never stops for a GM, every minute of everyday they are evaluating. Its their job. And reevaluating last years talents this year, as its an ongoing process.

Is this weird to you?

Do you not understand that an evaluation of everything, everyday is important, as things change, players change, talent rises and decreases.

Also, do you understand that things that are evaluated as negatives today, can be addressed by development tomorrow? That you do not pull the chord on a negative, cut ties, but instead try to address those negatives through development, coaching, and practice.

Should every negative be dealt away, immediately, without hesitation or consulting? If so, you must love how the Leafs have operated for the last decade. Great template?

And any player in the history of the NHL, that was traded, and went on to resurrect their careers, performing at high level after the trade, was traded prematurely by a GM that overreacted and chose to cut ties instead of trying to work the problems out themselves.

Making knee jerk reactions based off of limited information is what kills organization.

That is what every incompetent GM does, along with bringing in a great coach like Maurice, then not ask his opinion on the players he coaches. Is that something you see as a negative? A GM asking for his coaches opinion?
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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I've acknowledged that there are negatives on his resume, just like every GM that has ever operated in a professional sport, ever in the history of sports.

Its when some posters try to portray these negatives as "tragedies, irreversible mistakes that have mired us to the deeper depths of hell, when I smirk. When the best mistakes are minor mistakes, trying to paint them differently looks somewhat desperate. And to that, if these are the best examples some have, why not feel good knowing that Chevy's worst deal wouldn't even register on a list of worst deals over the past 5 seasons.

I may be seeing you objecting to the overstatement of a mistake as denying that it is one.

Conversely, it seems that some posters can't accept anything positive about Chevy. One coin - two sides.

I have no problem identifying mistakes, but don't agree with some alleged "mistakes" (like not signing Stemp or Tlusty). It's just that some posters seem to find mistakes in everything.

Agreed, that happens too.

It would be nice to be able to discuss some of Chevy's decisions on their merits without immediately being pressed to take a position or defend a position that may or may not even be central to the issue. As soon as we are made to defend ourselves we tend to start taking a more extreme position. We all do it to varying degrees. Human nature I guess.
 

surixon

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Yes it does. It shows us a measurement to which we should gauge our operations. If one is to expect operations to occur without mistakes, then one is out to lunch and should recalibrate their expectations to what reality dictates. Every organization has blemishes, even the best ones.

He didn't deal with the 5 year mistake, because he does not see it as a mistake. And according to last season, he was right in doing so, as his mistake operated at an above average level.

Kane deal worked out exactly as well as we could have hoped for. Great return, solid move, not much else to discuss. Your timeline, or your observation that this "festered" are "your analyses" of a situation you only understand, maybe 5% of. In the end, the return was excellent, that is factual. You believing that Kane was a detriment to this organization 3 seasons ago, is pure speculation, as you do not know.

So, you do not think GM's spend years evaluating?

Evaluating never stops for a GM, every minute of everyday they are evaluating. Its their job. And reevaluating last years talents this year, as its an ongoing process.

Is this weird to you?

Do you not understand that an evaluation of everything, everyday is important, as things change, players change, talent rises and decreases.

Also, do you understand that things that are evaluated as negatives today, can be addressed by development tomorrow? That you do not pull the chord on a negative, cut ties, and instead try to address those negatives through development, coaching, and practice. Should every negative be dealt away, immediately, without hesitation or consulting? If so, you must love how the Leafs have operated for the last decade. Great template?

What their job is not, is making knee jerk reactions based off of limited information. That is what every incompetent GM does. What an idiot GM would do, is bring in a great coach like Maurice, then not ask his opinion on the players he coaches. Is that something you see as a negative? A GM asking for his coaches opinion?

Very well stated. Smart executives sourround themselves with quality people. They give these people the resources and autonomy that they require to excel in there positions. While the executive ultimately has final say on the major decisions, the smart ones gather and incorporate information from their staffs in order to make informed decisions. I am quite happy that Chevy takes the advice of his staff into account when making decisions.
 

Evil Little

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No one believe Cheveldayoff can do no wrong. Some of us believe that his mistakes, so far, have been minor and that it's tedious to see him raked over the coals--repeatedly--for not buying out a goaltender that went on to post a .920 save % (especially considering the fact that moving on from the Pavelec era, was clearly plan A for the '14-'15 season).

Some of us also believe that Cheveldayoff is in a unique and enviable position amongst NHL GMs because he can afford to execute a patient approach without hearing footsteps coming for his job. Even Tim Murray's boldness is leading to some panicky moves, by the looks of it.

Recall that the wisest of all the internet commentariat spent years begging Cheveldayoff to bottom out (the "pick a direction" wars). He didn't. He was patient and got better in a unique fashion. How did that turn out, compared to some teams that did tank at the same time? I like where the Jets are, compared to, say, the Flames, the Panthers, or the Hurricanes.

Every GM makes mistakes.

I'm looking at overall results... 99 points in the Central and a top-notch prospect pool. That's what I'm looking at, rather than cherry-picking moves here and there.

Or cherry-picking things he's said in the media (such as when he's asked who the starting goaltender is for the following season when the only option under contract other than Pavelec has literally zero pro games under his belt)...

Yup, he'd provide value on the ice in a bottom pairing role and 2nd to 3rd unit PK.

Overpaying a bottom pairing D man $1-1.5m for his leadership seems fair to me, if he earns it.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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That is the encouraging part to the Pavs saga. If you are indeed right, that he is the 5th lowest paid starter in the league, all we really need is for him to have a decent ~.915 season.

Might be a tall order, but if that happens I just really hope the Jets seize their opportunity to rid themselves of that 3.9mil & move Helle up. Not only will they have a better, cheaper tandem, but they'll have some much-needed extra $ for re-signing the rooks.

I think any sv% of ~.912+ would make Pav tradeable coming after last season's .920. Even if the return was 1 wet sock simply getting rid of all of his contract would be sufficient benefit.

I think Pav's technique last year showed only very slight improvement so I don't think it is highly likely that he is simply a late bloomer but it is a possibility. If he has another decent season that could turn out to be the reality so if we move him it might be a loss. I'd be willing to take that chance though given our G prospects. I think we need the starting goalie spot vacated to open space.
 

surixon

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No one believe Cheveldayoff can do no wrong. Some of us believe that his mistakes, so far, have been minor and that it's tedious to see him raked over the coals--repeatedly--for not buying out a goaltender that went on to post a .920 save % (especially considering the fact that moving on from the Pavelec era, was clearly plan A for the '14-'15 season).

Some of us also believe that Cheveldayoff is in a unique and enviable position amongst NHL GMs because he can afford to execute a patient approach without hearing footsteps coming for his job. Even Tim Murray's boldness is leading to some panicky moves, by the looks of it.

Recall that the wisest of all the internet commentariat spent years begging Cheveldayoff to bottom out (the "pick a direction" wars). He didn't. He was patient and got better in a unique fashion. How did that turn out, compared to some teams that did tank at the same time? I like where the Jets are, compared to, say, the Flames, the Panthers, or the Hurricanes.



Or cherry-picking things he's said in the media (such as when he's asked who the starting goaltender is for the following season when the only option under contract other than Pavelec has literally zero pro games under his belt)...



Overpaying a bottom pairing D man $1-1.5m for his leadership seems fair to me, if he earns it.

No issue with Stuart or his contract, I think he provides substantial value off the ice. I like many wish he was utilized on the ice a bit better.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Yes it does. It shows us a measurement to which we should gauge our operations. If one is to expect operations to occur without mistakes, then one is out to lunch and should recalibrate their expectations to what reality dictates. Every organization has blemishes, even the best ones.

He didn't deal with the 5 year mistake, because he does not see it as a mistake. And according to last season, he was right in doing so, as his mistake operated at an above average level.

Kane deal worked out exactly as well as we could have hoped for. Great return, solid move, not much else to discuss. Your timeline, or your observation that this "festered" are "your analyses" of a situation you only understand, maybe 5% of. In the end, the return was excellent, that is factual. You believing that Kane was a detriment to this organization 3 seasons ago, is pure speculation, as you do not know.

So, you do not think GM's spend years evaluating?

Evaluating never stops for a GM, every minute of everyday they are evaluating. Its their job. And reevaluating last years talents this year, as its an ongoing process.

Is this weird to you?

Do you not understand that an evaluation of everything, everyday is important, as things change, players change, talent rises and decreases.

Also, do you understand that things that are evaluated as negatives today, can be addressed by development tomorrow? That you do not pull the chord on a negative, cut ties, but instead try to address those negatives through development, coaching, and practice.

Should every negative be dealt away, immediately, without hesitation or consulting? If so, you must love how the Leafs have operated for the last decade. Great template?

And any player in the history of the NHL, that was traded, and went on to resurrect their careers, performing at high level after the trade, was traded prematurely by a GM that overreacted and chose to cut ties instead of trying to work the problems out themselves.

Making knee jerk reactions based off of limited information is what kills organization.

That is what every incompetent GM does, along with bringing in a great coach like Maurice, then not ask his opinion on the players he coaches. Is that something you see as a negative? A GM asking for his coaches opinion?

I'll give you the Pav one only if he puts together a second consecutive good season. If it turns out to be simply a fluke hot streak to save last season then it will remain in the mistake list. That is a lot more likelihood of a positive or breakeven result than anyone would have expected last year at this time.

The Kane one is similar. In hindsight I think it is clear that Chevy should have acted on Kane no later than last off-season. If the return from Buffalo works out well I can concede that acting sooner would not have been substantially better. But, it is much too soon to judge the value of that return. I can characterize all of those pieces as wonderful. I can as easily raise serious questions about each of them. Don't forget that the value of that return has to be shared between Kane and Bogo. Both of them have their flaws and their strengths but Bogo was a big part of that trade. Had they been traded separately in 2 different trades we would have expected 2-3 strong pieces in return for Bogo as well.
 

Gm0ney

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Yes it does. It shows us a measurement to which we should gauge our operations. If one is to expect operations to occur without mistakes, then one is out to lunch and should recalibrate their expectations to what reality dictates. Every organization has blemishes, even the best ones.

I agree that every organization makes mistakes. Only a fool would think that this is a good argument for absolving any mistake made by an organization.

He didn't deal with the 5 year mistake, because he does not see it as a mistake. And according to last season, he was right in doing so, as his mistake operated at an above average level.

Clearly Chevy doesn't see the Pavelec deal as a mistake. It was a mistake, however. Even taking into account last year's career-best season from him, he was the worst starting goalie in the league for the 3 years prior to that. I would hate to see your measuring stick for success - believing that historically terrible players will suddenly become great as long as we never admit they suck and aren't in any rush to replace them - applied to more players on this team.

Kane deal worked out exactly as well as we could have hoped for. Great return, solid move, not much else to discuss. Your timeline, or your observation that this "festered" are "your analyses" of a situation you only understand, maybe 5% of. In the end, the return was excellent, that is factual. You believing that Kane was a detriment to this organization 3 seasons ago, is pure speculation, as you do not know.

Your read of the situation is as opinion based as mine. Your assertion that the return was excellent is also an opinion and not fact. You know you can't make an opinion a fact just by declaring it so? That's a fact, not an opinion, btw.

So, you do not think GM's spend years evaluating?

Evaluating never stops for a GM, every minute of everyday they are evaluating. Its their job. And reevaluating last years talents this year, as its an ongoing process.

Is this weird to you?

Do you not understand that an evaluation of everything, everyday is important, as things change, players change, talent rises and decreases.

Also, do you understand that things that are evaluated as negatives today, can be addressed by development tomorrow? That you do not pull the chord on a negative, cut ties, but instead try to address those negatives through development, coaching, and practice.

It's not weird that GMs are continually evaluating - what's weird is that Chevy takes years to come to a point where he can make a decision. Not as weird as 5 paragraphs you just spewed out on the subject, but still pretty weird...

Should every negative be dealt away, immediately, without hesitation or consulting? If so, you must love how the Leafs have operated for the last decade. Great template?

Yes, that's obviously what I'm saying. :sarcasm:
 

Bartho

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I, like I'm sure many on this board would have loved to see some big FA signings in the offseason, but from day one "draft and develop" has been this franchise's mantra and they obviously think some of the prospects are ready to make the jump to the NHL. Will a couple of them be ready to make the jump? Time will tell. We'll have to see how it plays out. Chevy isn't infallible, but overall I believe he's doing a good job.

I've gotta say, attempting to portray a GM asking his new head coach for assistance in evaluating his players within the new system as being a sign of incompetence is a real doozie.
 

Board Bard

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I've gotta say, attempting to portray a GM asking his new head coach for assistance in evaluating his players within the new system as being a sign of incompetence is a real doozie.

They you're not reading it properly. A GM who hasn't managed to assess his team after two and a half years, and needs to bring someone else in to help him finish the job, is a real dummy.
 

surixon

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They you're not reading it properly. A GM who hasn't managed to assess his team after two and a half years, and needs to bring someone else in to help him finish the job, is a real dummy.

I'm sure Chevy had his own assessment and brought someone in to given a second opinion.
 

Yukon Joe

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They you're not reading it properly. A GM who hasn't managed to assess his team after two and a half years, and needs to bring someone else in to help him finish the job, is a real dummy.

Funny. I think that a GM who doesn't get any input from his head coach about the players on the roster is the real dummy.
 

Board Bard

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Funny. I think that a GM who doesn't get any input from his head coach about the players on the roster is the real dummy.

You're not reading it properly either. Chevy had two and a half years of assessing -- with head coach Noel -- his team, and still didn't get the job done. That's solid dumbass territory.
 

MrBoJangelz71

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I agree that every organization makes mistakes. Only a fool would think that this is a good argument for absolving any mistake made by an organization.

Who stated they should be absolved? How about just properly assessed?



Clearly Chevy doesn't see the Pavelec deal as a mistake. It was a mistake, however. Even taking into account last year's career-best season from him, he was the worst starting goalie in the league for the 3 years prior to that. I would hate to see your measuring stick for success - believing that historically terrible players will suddenly become great as long as we never admit they suck and aren't in any rush to replace them - applied to more players on this team.

It was a mistake 2 and 3 seasons ago. Last season, it was not a mistake, and actual ended the seasons as a value contract.

No difference between the multitude of long term deal signed over the past 20 years. Poor value in the first half, solid value in the second half, happens all the time.

When it is clearly a mistake, it is bad value for the entire duration of that contract.

If Pavs has another season at or above average, followed by another, the contract cannot be classified as a mistake anymore. to be determined.

But labeling it as a clear mistake is illogical, as it is clearly not over.




Your read of the situation is as opinion based as mine. Your assertion that the return was excellent is also an opinion and not fact. You know you can't make an opinion a fact just by declaring it so? That's a fact, not an opinion, btw.
\

Sure, this is true. In time, we will be able to properly assess this deal and come to a definitive conclusion. Opinion of media seems to favor it as being a solid deal for us, but time will tell.



It's not weird that GMs are continually evaluating - what's weird is that Chevy takes years to come to a point where he can make a decision. Not as weird as 5 paragraphs you just spewed out on the subject, but still pretty weird...

What decision specifically did he take 5 years to make?

How do you know that the entire 5 past years, Chevy has scrutinized on what to do with Kane? You don't of course.

The past 4 seasons Chevy's decision was to keep Kane, work with him, and try to get the most out of a young talented player. So, ya, Chevy decided to keep Kane, which is a DECISION.

Just because that decision changed, does not mean he waited on it for 5 seasons.

If you honestly believe that Chevy is a indecisive GM, twiddling his thumbs in hopes that a sign of some sort will come flashing in the sky, well, have fun with that.

Chevy is a smart GM, one that does not make moves for the sake of. You can try and make this out as a negative, but it actually is positive, unless you believe knee jerk reactions make for the best moves.
 

Flair Hay

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He seems to venture out of dumbass territory every year on draft day for some reason.

He's a big picture guy doing the work of a big picture driven organization being judged harshly by a small amount of small picture HFers.
 

MrBoJangelz71

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I'll give you the Pav one only if he puts together a second consecutive good season. If it turns out to be simply a fluke hot streak to save last season then it will remain in the mistake list. That is a lot more likelihood of a positive or breakeven result than anyone would have expected last year at this time.

The Kane one is similar. In hindsight I think it is clear that Chevy should have acted on Kane no later than last off-season. If the return from Buffalo works out well I can concede that acting sooner would not have been substantially better. But, it is much too soon to judge the value of that return. I can characterize all of those pieces as wonderful. I can as easily raise serious questions about each of them. Don't forget that the value of that return has to be shared between Kane and Bogo. Both of them have their flaws and their strengths but Bogo was a big part of that trade. Had they been traded separately in 2 different trades we would have expected 2-3 strong pieces in return for Bogo as well.


I can agree with both statements above. If Pavs can back up last season with 2 more solid seasons, his contract is not a mistake. If not, it can be classified as a bad contract.

Kane Bogo deal is to be determined as well, albeit, I believe at worst this will be a scratch deal that worked well for both teams, our just a bit better. :)
 

Board Bard

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He seems to venture out of dumbass territory every year on draft day for some reason.

He's a big picture guy doing the work of a big picture driven organization being judged harshly by a small amount of small picture HFers.

He does draft quite well. I'm assuming in your second paragraph you're copping a plea.
 

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