Confirmed with Link: CDH and Saarela to CHI for Forsling and Anton Forsberg

[tarheelhockey]

I can't believe you guys have me agreeing with bleed, but I'm not buying the injury angle to the trade. For one, Chicago had to have done their due diligence. Two, as bad as it is to trade a guy who just signed a year ago as a UFA, it's worse to trade damaged goods without full disclosure.

There's extra risk with de Haan due to the multiple surgeries, but Chicago is obviously willing to accept the risk. To me, this is all about clearing a spot for Fleury/Bean and recouping the money we used to get a first-rounder out of Toronto.

If "surgery didn't go as well as hoped," Chicago would certainly know that.

I don’t think anyone’s saying we tried to trick Chicago. More that his current recovery status may involve a level of risk that management isn’t willing to move forward with. Contract insurance is a big factor in that dynamic as well. Chicago is realistically able take on more risk than Carolina when it comes to LTIR’ing guys or getting into buyout situations.

Part of the reason I think the injury status is significant, is that the timing of the trade is very weird if it were purely for financial purposes. Wait a week and the demand for above-average defensemen is going to be astronomically higher than it is today. If we had the luxury of sitting around and taking bids on a soon-to-be healthy Cal, with no particular pressure to get it done until October, why would we rush out to get peanuts for him now?

To me, the willingness to take a fire sale price for him is a sign of there being no potential for a fair value deal, even if we waited till later. And that lack of potential for a better deal is, in turn, a sign of something we aren’t privy to which makes CDH damaged goods. An unfavorable prognosis would be one obvious possibility to explain that.

Or, it could be a sign of another domino about to fall. That’s a valid theory too. The idea that we did it purely to get money back on Marleau just doesn’t seem to square with the timeframe.

But we are all operating with little to no information about any of these possibilities. Maybe Duchene signs here a minute after UFA opens, and the timing of all this instantly makes more sense. We’ll know it when we see it.

 

[spockBokk]

Fleury was very noticeably better than his AHL counterparts during the Calder Cup Finals. He still had a few brain farts, but what 22yr old D man, outside of 22 yr old Slavin and Pesce, don’t have those. He’s the most likely guy they have to take over that 2nd pair LD spot, imho, provided they trust him more than 10mins a game.

I like what I saw from Bean too in the AHL playoffs, but I don’t think he’s physically ready for anything other than 3rd pair and PP duty.

 

[vorbis]

both Marlies announcers and Chicago Wolves announcers were consistently fawning over Fleury in the Calder Cup run. it sounded like they were window shopping, to be honest.

getting an up close look at Bean against the Marlies game 4, I felt like he was way more prepared physically for pro players than I thought he would be, when he was just a scrawny draftee. he's filled out quite a bit, and he's legit 6'1" if not taller. I bet if he can latch on to a power play role in camp (not a given but it's right there for the taking), then Fleury will not be competition for his ice time.

 

[emptyNedder]

Once McKeown returned, the Checkers used Bean/McKeown together. And from what I recall, they were facing the opponents' top lines. I don't remember if they were regular partners earlier in the season. But it did make me think that it was early practice because the Canes were missing an entire third pairing to start 19-20.

 

[NotOpie]

The third line can have three 12-goal scorers and it will be ok because the top two lines could have 3-4 30 goal scorers. The fourth line will score some and be disruptive every night.

The reality is that Williams remains a question mark....and that's not really a bad thing either way it shakes out.

I's flip Maenalanen and Foegele in your line construction. I can just imagine Necas and Foegele streaking down the wing while Wallmark trails the play to clean up.

I think several beers to make sense of team moves is going to be the norm around here.

Forever....

 

[Roboturner913]

Keep in mind that it's possible TVR may not be back until October or early November too. We may have to end up with McKeown or Carrick in this mix (or even Sellgren), in addition to Fleury and Bean, if we're going to carry 7 D.

 

[Vagrant]

Keep in mind that it's possible TVR may not be back until October or early November too. We may have to end up with McKeown or Carrick in this mix (or even Sellgren), in addition to Fleury and Bean, if we're going to carry 7 D.

i think that's where they expect chase priskie to be in the mix. it sounds like we're pretty interested in his rights. it's interesting because our trade of adam fox and the return we picked up may be part of what's slowing down this trade. if we can't get that done, roland mckeown might start there.

 

[Canes]

i think that's where they expect chase priskie to be in the mix. it sounds like we're pretty interested in his rights. it's interesting because our trade of adam fox and the return we picked up may be part of what's slowing down this trade. if we can't get that done, roland mckeown might start there.

Keep in mind that it's possible TVR may not be back until October or early November too. We may have to end up with McKeown or Carrick in this mix (or even Sellgren), in addition to Fleury and Bean, if we're going to carry 7 D.

Slavin, Pesce, Faulk, Hamilton, Bean, Fleury, Forsling already seem like they're going to be the 7 while TVR is out. Obviously I don't think any of the last 3 are locks, but it's still a crowded blueline for guys like McKeown and the other Checkers, and a guy like Priskie if they want to make the team. Unless the Canes are moving another established d-man...

 

[Hinterland]

I am pretty sure I have thought about this trade as much as anyone.

It may be just a cap dump, which would mean that any significant salary coming back wouldn't be realistic. As I mentioned earlier this morning, if de Haan was signed last season to get the Canes above the cap floor it would mean two things:

1. trading Faulk last season in anything other than a player-for-player deal was never really an option because that put the team back below the floor—so Faulk for Saad may have been the one doable trade and Chicago said no;
2. once Marleau was acquired de Haan was extra salary that needed "dumped" not for the best return but for the least amount of salary coming back. Everyone believed that the former owner had an internal cap. The Canes had the lowest salary in the league last season, so it makes sense to see the de Haan trade as evidence for another internal cap. Basically the new salary for Aho and Teravainen is being paid by de Haan, Ferland, and maybe Williams.

The other scenario that makes sense goes 180 degrees in the other direction. Perhaps the Canes want to spend quite a bit of money and do things differently by going all in on an offer sheet. In that scenario they sign Aho for 8yrs/10M and offer sheet Timo Meier (or Kyle Connor) with 6yrs/42M. In this scenario the three picks (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) are not that big a deal because Carolina has two in each round next year.

Neither scenario requires CDH's injury to be career threatening—they also don't require Canes management to be performing any kind of deep analytics. I am not saying you are wrong--I agree that interpreting the trade as indicating the injury is serious is one way to see this trade, but surely not the only thoughtful way.




No. Pesce/Faulk and Slavin/Hamilton are the top pairs. Forsling/Fleury/Bean are competing to be the LD on the third pairing.

Of all the things that the de Haan trade might signify, it is evident that the Canes consider Pesce a top-pairing LD who happens to shoot right. The added benefit is that he can be utilized as an RD if one of Bean/Fleury/Forsling develops into a second pairing LD.

Pesce benefits offensively from playing the left side but he's made lots of mistakes he wouldn't have made playing on his natural side. He's much better on the right side and that's where he should stay.

There's only one explanation possible for this:

DeHaan is done with hockey and they want to offer sheet somebody

Otherwise they should have kept DeHaan and Saarela and left friggin Paddy M. right where he was. DeHaan and Saarela are worth more than that 1st plus they also lowered their chances of landing FA's and helped out Toronto with those moves.


Even if it's the plan to offer sheet somebody they still should have traded Hamilton instead. He's a righty and has demonstrated his well known weeknesses all over again last season. Still, because of his ability to create offense, the return would have been much better than the one for DeHaan. What they did now is essentially trading a former 12th overall and a promising forward prospect for the completely useless contracts. By trading Hamilton they would have gotten an actual return and would have kept the better player and the better fit for the team. Unless DeHaan is dying this doesn't make sense at all.

 

[NotOpie]

Otherwise they should have kept DeHaan and Saarela and left friggin Tommy M. right where he was. DeHaan and Saarela are worth more than that 1st plus they also lowered their chances of landing FA's and helped out Toronto with those moves.

Patrick's brother, Tommy....

 

[HAYT]

Just because Fleury was overwhelmed in the playoffs this year doesn't mean he can't be great next year. By all accounts he was still a very green player in the NHL and he was taking the firehose to the face in the playoffs. With an entire season to become used to the NHL level with some playoff experience under his belt, I would expect him to be much better next year.

Went to a Checkers playoff game (last of round 3) and Fleury was a wrecking ball there.

After being up with the club he came back to Charlotte with a boulder-sized chip on his shoulder and acquitted himself well. He got a taste and definitely wanted more ...

I too expect that we'll see some growth of Fleury as a player come next year.

 

[Hinterland]

Patrick's brother, Tommy....

Paddy of course. Sorry. Friggin heat is killing me...

 

[Ole Gil]

Pesce benefits offensively from playing the left side but he's made lots of mistakes he wouldn't have made playing on his natural side. He's much better on the right side and that's where he should stay.

I agree with this when the switch first happened he was uncharacteristically mistake prone. But then he got comfortable, and was as good as he's ever been.

 

[Drivebytrucker]

Dont forget that we are assuredly Going to lose a top 4 defender in the expansion draft in less than two years.

Pesce and Slavin look like locks to be protected.

TVR and Faulk are UFAs next summer and Dougie the year after..

One or both of Bean and Fleury could be exposed

Our defensive depth could be tested soon.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

*breaches oath*

*wakes up from estivation*

*takes a shot*

*grabs a hatchet*

*smashes down some pottery*

*returns to the f***ing estivation chamber*

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Dont forget that we are assuredly Going to lose a top 4 defender in the expansion draft in less than two years.

Pesce and Slavin look like locks to be protected.

TVR and Faulk are UFAs next summer and Dougie the year after..

One or both of Bean and Fleury could be exposed

Our defensive depth could be tested soon.

I was just thinking about that, which is why the CDH trade is starting to make more sense to me. I think that Bean's too inexperienced to be needed to be protected, IIRC, based on how pro tenure played into Pesce and Slavin not needing to be exposed the last time. I know that the Canes FO did an excellent job of managing the Vegas Expansion Draft the last time, so I'm not too concerned about losing big draft picks or anything to protect anybody.

 

[Hinterland]

I agree with this when the switch first happened he was uncharacteristically mistake prone. But then he got comfortable, and was as good as he's ever been.

I don't disagree that he can play LD, I'm just saying that he's better on the right side and playoffs have shown that it would be a huge mistake to pencil Pesce in as 2nd LD. He can still play in that role in case somebody gets injured or if they need offense. But to start a season with Pesce as 2nd LD would be far from ideal.

 

[SlavinAway]

I don't disagree that he can play LD, I'm just saying that he's better on the right side and playoffs have shown that it would be a huge mistake to pencil Pesce in as 2nd LD. He can still play in that role in case somebody gets injured or if they need offense. But to start a season with Pesce as 2nd LD would be far from ideal.

I disagree. Pesce played LD in college and looked just fine there in the playoffs. That may in fact be his more natural side (based off increased offense).

Peters was adamant that righties play on the right. Pesce and Rod don’t care.

 

[Chrispy]

I was just thinking about that, which is why the CDH trade is starting to make more sense to me. I think that Bean's too inexperienced to be needed to be protected, IIRC, based on how pro tenure played into Pesce and Slavin not needing to be exposed the last time. I know that the Canes FO did an excellent job of managing the Vegas Expansion Draft the last time, so I'm not too concerned about losing big draft picks or anything to protect anybody.

I think Bean will need protection. He's already slid his ELC twice and just finished his first pro year. He will finish his second next year, and therefore be in his third year (and eligible) in 20-21.

Necas's ELC slid again this year, which makes him exempt in 20-21 (only second year in NHL rules.) Bean is a year older than Necas, so they couldn't quite pull that off.

 

[NotOpie]

I think Bean will need protection. He's already slid his ELC twice and just finished his first pro year. He will finish his second next year, and therefore be in his third year (and eligible) in 20-21.

Necas's ELC slid again this year, which makes him exempt in 20-21 (only second year in NHL rules.) Bean is a year older than Necas, so they couldn't quite pull that off.

In Bean's case, I believe he'll remain exempt as well. If I'm not mistaken, players with 2 years or less of professional service (AHL or NHL) are exempt. Given that the expansion draft takes place before July 1 (the beginning of the professional contract year for NHL purposes), Bean should remain exempt. Fleury will not.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

In Bean's case, I believe he'll remain exempt as well. If I'm not mistaken, players with 2 years or less of professional service (AHL or NHL) are exempt. Given that the expansion draft takes place before July 1 (the beginning of the professional contract year for NHL purposes), Bean should remain exempt. Fleury will not.

This is the case, I believe. Which, again, helps the case in favor of trading CDH. It opens up a slot to protect Fleury and/or Hamilton in the Expansion Draft (they can either protect 7F/3D or 8 players regardless of position).

 

[My Special Purpose]

Went to a Checkers playoff game (last of round 3) and Fleury was a wrecking ball there.

After being up with the club he came back to Charlotte with a boulder-sized chip on his shoulder and acquitted himself well. He got a taste and definitely wanted more ...

I too expect that we'll see some growth of Fleury as a player come next year.

Even looking like a man among boys in Charlotte, he still showed basically nothing when it comes to skill. I hope he shows up to camp in great shape, fully confident and with a chip on his shoulder. But at the end of the day, he is what he is: a very limited guy with good feet and good size. He can turn that into a decent career, a la TvR, but I think his ceiling at this point is holding down a third-pairing job.

This is the case, I believe. Which, again, helps the case in favor of trading CDH. It opens up a slot to protect Fleury and/or Hamilton in the Expansion Draft (they can either protect 7F/3D or 8 players regardless of position).

Seeing as how we just gave CdH away for very little, I don't think it's a stretch that we would have exposed him in the expansion draft if he were still here. Part of the expansion draft rules is that you *have* to make a certain number of players at certain positions with a certain amount of experience available. In that way, it's not really about protecting what you want to protect, it's more about exposing what you want to expose.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

This is the case, I believe. Which, again, helps the case in favor of trading CDH. It opens up a slot to protect Fleury and/or Hamilton in the Expansion Draft (they can either protect 7F/3D or 8 players regardless of position).

So given exposure requirements and the D as it is structured now...

Slavin - #1 protection priority
Pesce - #2 protection priority
Faulk - unless resigned he will be UFA
TVR - unless he is resigned he will be UFA
Bean - not eligible for expansion draft
Hamilton - 1 year left on deal at time of ED could be 3rd D protected
Fleury - could be 3rd D protected
Forsling - could be count to meet exposure requirements potentially

Based on this I imagine they will go with the 7F/3D scheme

Forwards who IMO are locks to be protected are:

Staal (NMC)
Aho
Svech
TT
NN

Leaving 2 spots for either someone breaking out from CLT (who is not exempt) or an addition via trade or free agency, or McGinn, Foegele, Martinook, Wallmark

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

In Bean's case, I believe he'll remain exempt as well. If I'm not mistaken, players with 2 years or less of professional service (AHL or NHL) are exempt. Given that the expansion draft takes place before July 1 (the beginning of the professional contract year for NHL purposes), Bean should remain exempt. Fleury will not.

A player becomes a 3rd year pro at the beginning of the their 3rd league year.

The team ended up protecting 3 members of the 2012 draft class last round (di Giuseppe, McGinn and Carrick). The clock on their ELCs started ticking in 14-15 and concluded at the end of 16-17.

Bean is not exempt from a 21-22 expansion draft.

 

[GoldiFox]

A player becomes a 3rd year pro at the beginning of the their 3rd league year.

The team ended up protecting 3 members of the 2012 draft class last round (di Giuseppe, McGinn and Carrick). The clock on their ELCs started ticking in 14-15 and concluded at the end of 16-17.

Bean is not exempt from a 21-22 expansion draft.

Yeah either I'm confused about the year of the draft or everyone here is off by 1 year. Next Expansion Draft is 2 offseasons from now, not next offseason. Bean will not be exempt. Necas should be exempt because last year slid.