CBJ Board Other Sports Thread: Part VIII

[Tulipunaruusu*]

And I don't want anything to do with the ****er, or Team Uruguay as a result. It's disgraceful that that kind of nonsense is even permitted, to say nothing of being outright celebrated.

'The Cannibal of Ajax and Liverpool' has been banned many times (including racism related offense) and missed the next sudden death play-off game in the previous World Cup while his side went through to the next round mainly because of his handball save.

Those incidents didn't stop him being from the English Premier League top scorer this season... Surely you would like the guy if he would win Hart trophies in a blue jacket.

Hon, if I'd never made an effort to "get over the stereotype", I'd never bother watching. I do watch some MLS because it seems like folks at least make an effort to get rid of that crap and they're less theatrically stupid about it. Haven't watched the game in Europe in a while because I quite frankly got way too damn sick of it; if they're actually making an honest effort to improve the situation (which Fro seems to suggest is happening), maybe I'll give it another try. Maybe the next time the Champions League rolls around.

If we take Finnish, Swedish, Slovak, Czech and Russian nationalities and put them into comparison between ice hockey and football players they are still quite similar and tend to play with same characteristics in both sports. Don Cherry could go on about how the Europeans have ruined it for all in the NHL...

That still ain't very broad look at different cultures as Southern Europe is very much missed on ice hockey world map... Southern America, Middle America, Africa, Asia, Oceania also... Perhaps if these would have more influence you would see more of those often incredible skillful individuals created by their cultural upbringing that likes to see players to become more than news stories. Drama.

Nail Jakupov in his rookie season acted very much like how young football hot shot would do after watching Mario Balotelli making his breakthrough to international fame.

You can actually see how German or Icelandic football upbringing shows on Americans on today's Ghana encounter.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Let's use today's activity leading up to the red card to Pepe as a starting point.



Is the hand to the face a foul? If so, would the referee have seen it to call it if Muller doesn't go all drama? If there are are fouls occurring too often where they wouldn't be called (or at least the player believes it wouldn't be called), what should the correct response be? To suck it up, that's the way it is there's no way everything's going to get called? Or to buck decades of tradition and add a referee in the hopes of reducing the perceived need for drama?

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

Is the hand to the face a foul? If so, would the referee have seen it to call it if Muller doesn't go all drama?

I think the hand to the face was only yellow card (warning) worthy at max but the headbutt action makes it clear red card.

Pepe (the red carded guy) then is Brazilian-born and one of the worst divers and overall characters in world of football... too bad that he is also excellent on the ball and can defend when the wind doesn't take him down too often.

Muller going all drama doesn't really seem to me to be much different than what ice hockey players do when the occasional high stick "gets them". Replays don't seem to escape from their sudden, powerful reactions no matter how light the touch of stick was and lips that are usually shown to referees after non-penalty whistle.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think the hand to the face was only yellow card (warning) worthy at max but the headbutt action makes it clear red card.

Pepe (the red carded guy) then is Brazilian-born and one of the worst divers and overall characters in world of football... too bad that he is also excellent on the ball and can defend when the wind doesn't take him down too often.

Muller going all drama doesn't really seem to me to be much different than what ice hockey players do when the occasional high stick "gets them". Replays don't seem to escape from their sudden, powerful reactions no matter how light the touch of stick was and lips that are usually shown to referees after non-penalty whistle.

I know all of this and I don't care about comparing footballers to hockey players. I found your discussion with Viqsi to be largely unreadable from both sides (and no I'm not going to address this further) so I decided to try and change it up a bit. If you're going to repeat your same talking points then I'd prefer you ignore my post.

I would like to know people's thoughts on whether the "drama" is an embarrassment to the sport, a necessary evil that players feel like is their only recourse to bring certain actions (fouls) of other players to light, or whether we could start to eliminate some of the "drama" by another means.

 

[Viqsi]

Is the hand to the face a foul? If so, would the referee have seen it to call it if Muller doesn't go all drama? If there are are fouls occurring too often where they wouldn't be called (or at least the player believes it wouldn't be called), what should the correct response be? To suck it up, that's the way it is there's no way everything's going to get called? Or to buck decades of tradition and add a referee in the hopes of reducing the perceived need for drama?

I'd say it should be a foul. Couldn't say if it'd be called regardless - I'm not sure where the ref was standing when it happened (wasn't watching the game) - but sticking a hand towards a guy's face like that is reckless no matter what, so I would err on the side of "it would get called" (unless the ref was behind them and didn't see where Pepe's hand was). I do not care for the melodramatic drop to the ground; I'd expect Muller to keep playing and keep putting pressure on Pepe.

I guess my position is that if the choice is one of "go for drama so that the ref might notice" or "suck it up and keep the pressure on", I have much more sympathy for the latter than the former. As much as I want to see reckless plays be called, I don't think it justifies the melodrama.


EDIT: Or, to add to that - I get why someone might flinch at a hand in their face. Dropping to the ground, though, is absurd. That's a pure attention play, plain and simple, and I have no sympathy for it.

 

[Sore Loser]

I'm pretty much done with this topic ... spoke my mind. But, this is hilarious ... definitely going on the Facebook wall.

 

[Sore Loser]

http://www.break.com/video/spurs-win-the-title-japanese-animation-2624068

Not as good as Mayor Bee's, but for those of you who dislike basketball (and some who like it), this is a good one...

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

It's a shame, though, that GM's seem to forget that they're the boss and not the players. That's one criticism Jurgen Klinsmen (the US Men's soccer head coach) had of American sports.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/m...-us-soccer-better-and-less-american.html?_r=1

The mainline I would take from that is that American youth football 'education' needs to be better on American mainland. Physique-based identity, people choosing different sports like everywhere else too (more or less) or MLS schedule do not effect that nearly as much as what you do with your talents.

Current American World Cup team is very similar to Columbus Blue Jackets. Couple bright spots in the material but absolute top quality is missing and the overall squad level doesn't suggest that they would be winning trophies anytime soon. Hardworking team none the less.

 

[Samkow]

Question for people who know what they're talking about:

I've seen that the 2022 World Cup could be moved to the States. Any chance Columbus gets to host a few games? I know US Soccer likes to hsot games here.

I know Crew Stadium is way too small as is but maybe Ohio Stadium?

 

[Fro]

Columbus probably won't, closest would probably be detroit...Ohio Stadium isn't the correct dimensions if i remember correctly

 

[Crede777]

I think the hand to the face was only yellow card (warning) worthy at max but the headbutt action makes it clear red card.

Pepe (the red carded guy) then is Brazilian-born and one of the worst divers and overall characters in world of football... too bad that he is also excellent on the ball and can defend when the wind doesn't take him down too often.

Muller going all drama doesn't really seem to me to be much different than what ice hockey players do when the occasional high stick "gets them". Replays don't seem to escape from their sudden, powerful reactions no matter how light the touch of stick was and lips that are usually shown to referees after non-penalty whistle.

Muller is my favorite soccer player at the moment and I've been following him since he joined Bayern Munich as a youngster.

I was disappointed that he went down so easily and I still am. He did say that he got fish hooked which yeah would hurt but I thought he tried to sell it. Something that ESPN pointed out, though, is that as soon as Pepe headbutted him (softly) Muller jumped up and was in his face instead of rolling around on the ground. Credit to him, I suppose, that he didn't try to sell the headbutt.

That said, Muller used to be a much more rugged player. Then Bayern brought in Pep Guardiola from Barcelona as head coach. In Barca, it was said that Guardiola actually ENCOURAGED his players to play act and try to buy calls. He claimed it was a way to influence the game away from the ball (kind of like fighting in hockey).

If you're interested in removing embellishment from soccer, a good guy to get behind is Arsenal's head coach Arsene Wenger. Wenger hates it so much that he keeps proposing to make it an automatic 3 game ban in the Premier League.

 

[db2011]

conversations around which sports are "better" are insufferable. But I have to say, if you are letting the obvious-to-everybody fact that there is embellishment in soccer prevent you from marveling at the talent of world-class teams that is there to see the other 97% of a given game, that's your problem.

 

[Mayor Bee]

conversations around which sports are "better" are insufferable.

True.

But I have to say, if you are letting the obvious-to-everybody fact that there is embellishment in soccer prevent you from marveling at the talent of world-class teams that is there to see the other 97% of a given game, that's your problem.

Maybe.

Both the amount and intensity of the embellishment in soccer is what repulses a lot of people in this country. We grew up watching of playing football, where guys will play with broken bones or joints that need surgery. We watch or play hockey, where a spurting facial wound only sidelines a guy because it has to be stitched up before he can go back out there. The divers in hockey and basketball are known by name and are the object of scorn from most fans.

Soccer's problem isn't that it's over-the-top (which it is), or that it happens far too often (which it does), it's that the governing bodies seem to be too willing to basically dismiss any concerns about it. When the biggest and best tournament in the world sees players taken off on stretchers and then miraculously healed and back out 10 seconds later, a lot of eye-rolling is only natural. And when it happens time and again, what's the incentive to watch? What we regard as shameful behavior (diving) is not only unpunished, it's rewarded.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

True.
When the biggest and best tournament in the world sees players taken off on stretchers and then miraculously healed and back out 10 seconds later, a lot of eye-rolling is only natural. And when it happens time and again, what's the incentive to watch? What we regard as shameful behavior (diving) is not only unpunished, it's rewarded.

Chile did also little bit of that yesterday when they dropped out Spain 0-2 but referee gave six minutes of extra-time and generally didn't reward them in their attempts of winning some time.

Clint Dempsey played the whole game despite breaking his nose in the middle of Ghana game. If you are seriously hurt I also think that you have no place in the game anymore no matter how brave that is seen. One Finnish league footballer swiftly returned to action last season after leg injury only to play for few minutes and he is still out. One local ice hockey player was hopping with one leg in school games during leg injury and it hasn't really worked out for him - he is constantly injured now on pro level...

And why isn't more done by FIFA... Cultural setting has to come into play since I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of the play beyond southern civilizations and for those with more southern mentality it's part of the game's theatrical setup anyways so they don't care.

Minor amount of embellishment (like in the Muller case or in ice hockey's stick on the face = penalty situations) then will happen in every sport as long as you can get even minor amount of good out of it for your team. I don't personally see that as a problem as huge as those Brazilian attempts of winning a penalty kick which probably should be sorted out already in game with yellow cards.

 

[pete goegan]

...And why isn't more done by FIFA... Cultural setting has to come into play since I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of the play beyond southern civilizations and for those with more southern mentality it's part of the game's theatrical setup anyways so they don't care...

I think you've hit it on the head, here, T. Those cultural differences are what allow North Americans see a lack of sportsmanship where the larger soccer world sees acceptable gamesmanship. And that won't easily change, which is one reason many in the US, particularly older sports fans, don't fully appreciate or enjoy the game.

 

[Tulipunaruusu*]

And in other places American sporting scene is usually seen as having too many show elements and commercialism that digs into soul of the sport itself... in the end it's nice to have diversity with all the positives and negatives.

Suarez...

 

[Fro]

really dislike suarez the person...but damn the footy player is talented...when he's not diving

 

[pete goegan]

And in other places American sporting scene is usually seen as having too many show elements and commercialism that digs into soul of the sport itself...

Absolutely! That's why many older American sports fans are also less pleased with the current state of our major sports, as well.

...in the end it's nice to have diversity with all the positives and negatives.

Indeed.

And, yes, nice goal, set up by a perfect service!

Edit: wasn't he massively offside on the second goal?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Edit: wasn't he massively offside on the second goal?

Haven't had a chance to go back and review but I assume it depends on whose head that long ball went off.

As for Hart's goalkeeping...

 

[Fro]

ball went off England player I believe, so not offsides...

 

[pete goegan]

ball went off England player I believe, so not offsides...

Thanks, Fro.

 

[db2011]

True.



Maybe.

Both the amount and intensity of the embellishment in soccer is what repulses a lot of people in this country. We grew up watching of playing football, where guys will play with broken bones or joints that need surgery. We watch or play hockey, where a spurting facial wound only sidelines a guy because it has to be stitched up before he can go back out there. The divers in hockey and basketball are known by name and are the object of scorn from most fans.

Soccer's problem isn't that it's over-the-top (which it is), or that it happens far too often (which it does), it's that the governing bodies seem to be too willing to basically dismiss any concerns about it. When the biggest and best tournament in the world sees players taken off on stretchers and then miraculously healed and back out 10 seconds later, a lot of eye-rolling is only natural. And when it happens time and again, what's the incentive to watch? What we regard as shameful behavior (diving) is not only unpunished, it's rewarded.

No argument from me about the administration of the sport. FIFA is a disgrace and should be a cautionary tale (is it so different from any of our leagues, and the NCAA?). Others have raised pertinent issues regarding differing cultural approaches to "drama", and since it's an emphatically international proposition, there won't be a consensus. On the one hand I agree with the American disgust of embellishment- I'd like to think I'd never indulge in that. On the other hand, American sanctimoniousness about gamesmanship gets tired, too.

If you don't like it, fair enough, but more people like it than don't (which is NO defense, I agree) so it gets annoying to hear reasons for disliking it couched in value judgements of its execution. Suspend one's opinionations and it can be a well-spent couple of hours.

Vive la USA?

 

[pete goegan]

...Others have raised pertinent issues regarding differing cultural approaches to "drama", and since it's an emphatically international proposition, there won't be a consensus. On the one hand I agree with the American disgust of embellishment- I'd like to think I'd never indulge in that. On the other hand, American sanctimoniousness about gamesmanship gets tired, too...

Well said.

 

[Fro]

anymore there's no difference b/t gamesmanship...diving in soccer, flopping in the NBA, holding the stick to get a hooking call, falling in NFL for a hold...its everywhere and until there's a serious way to fix it, its only going to get worse...

 

[Viqsi]

Others have raised pertinent issues regarding differing cultural approaches to "drama", and since it's an emphatically international proposition, there won't be a consensus. On the one hand I agree with the American disgust of embellishment- I'd like to think I'd never indulge in that. On the other hand, American sanctimoniousness about gamesmanship gets tired, too.

I feel I should point out for the record that my own objections thereof are entirely personal and self-determined and in no way reflect any sort of attempt to "fit in" culturally or toe a party line. Sometimes one finds oneself in alignment with a majority* position entirely naturally.

*: Majority in the US, anyways. But it's not like any of those other countries actually matter, right?