Car 52, Where Are You? Mike Green, Pt. 3

[BobRouse]

That's assuming Green himself doesn't find his way on IR.

So the obvious solution is to trade him so we won't have that 3rd NHL dman available beyond Carlson/Alzner?

That is suspicious reasoning.

 

[Capitlols]

So the obvious solution is to trade him so we won't have that 3rd NHL dman available beyond Carlson/Alzner?

That is suspicious reasoning.

Trading Green doesn't mean all is doomed for the D. It's called free agency or trade.

Radical reasoning from the status quo.

 

[Ajax1995]

Mike Green will be 29, Trotz isn't going to be developing a rookie Suter, Weber, Timonen. He's going to have to rid of an awful lot of bad habits Green has accumulated over the years, that'll be tough for any coach to do.

Yeah nobody has ever made changes to their game at 29. Come on man...

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

So the obvious solution is to trade him so we won't have that 3rd NHL dman available beyond Carlson/Alzner?

That is suspicious reasoning.

Trading Green doesn't mean all is doomed for the D. It's called free agency or trade.

Radical reasoning from the status quo.

I don't get why Tinner can't wrap his head around acquiring another solid D.

Nobody would like a Mike Green resurgence more than me (except maybe my wife), but you have to manage an NHL franchise with more than hopes and prayers.

 

[BobRouse]

I don't get why Tinner can't wrap his head around acquiring another solid D.

Nobody would like a Mike Green resurgence more than me (except maybe my wife), but you have to manage an NHL franchise with more than hopes and prayers.

Ok..HUH????

You mean another D in ADDITION to the 2 other D we already NEED???

Sure trade Green. That leaves you with Carlson, Alzner and hopefully Orlov come Thanksgiving.

How about this....we ACQUIRE 3 Dmen first and THEN decide if its time to part ways with Green?

Good luck bringing on 3 new NHL level Dmen 2 of which need to be to 4 variety.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Ok..HUH????

You mean another D in ADDITION to the 2 other D we already NEED???

Sure trade Green. That leaves you with Carlson, Alzner and hopefully Orlov come Thanksgiving.

How about this....we ACQUIRE 3 Dmen first and THEN decide if its time to part ways with Green?

Good luck bringing on 3 new NHL level Dmen 2 of which need to be to 4 variety.

Stop muddying the waters. We're talking about Green. You're telling me teams have never acquired multiple good D in a offseason? We've got young guys stepping up too, so 2nd pair needs to be filled right now, assuming Green goes. Might be time to accept the fact that McPhee ran the franchise so far aground that it's going to take 2 years to really get back on track.

 

[Ajax1995]

I don't get why Tinner can't wrap his head around acquiring another solid D.

I'm not going to answer for him but IMO the Caps need to add another solid top 4 blueliner even if they keep Green. If they deal him away without getting one back they then need to acquire 2.

Also the UFA market is hardly flush with legit top 4 defenders and the nature of free agency means the ones who are available are very likely to end up significantly overpaid in both rate and term.

And while I feel the Caps have the assets to trade for one top 4 defender without opening a significant hole elsewhere I don't think they have the assets to acquire two that way. Also I don't think it is going to be as easy to acquire one via trade as many around here do. The Caps are far from the only team obviously looking to acquire a top 4 defender this offseason and laws of supply and demand are going to effect the prices.

 

[BobRouse]

Stop muddying the waters. We're talking about Green. You're telling me teams have never acquired multiple good D in a offseason? We've got young guys stepping up too, so 2nd pair needs to be filled right now, assuming Green goes.

When was the last time, in the Salary cap era (or any for that matter), that a team revamped their D like that? Made 4 significant moves (ship out 1 top 4, bring in 3 others including 2 top 4)???

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Young guys stepping up worked so well last year huh? Carlzner+Orlov is young as it is. We trade Green and we get younger yet.

I'm not going to answer for him but IMO the Caps need to add another solid top 4 blueliner even if they keep Green. If they deal him away without getting one back they then need to acquire 2.

Also the UFA market is hardly flush with legit top 4 defenders and the nature of free agency means the ones who are available are very likely to end up significantly overpaid in both rate and term.

And while I feel the Caps have the assets to trade for one top 4 defender without opening a significant hole elsewhere I don't think they have the assets to acquire two that way. Also I don't think it is going to be as easy to acquire one via trade as many around here do. The Caps are far from the only team obviously looking to acquire a top 4 defender this offseason and laws of supply and demand are going to effect the prices.

I'll take this a step further....we need another 5/6 dman as well. Hillen isn't reliable and Erskine is shot. Orlov on the 3rd pair is fine but we won't have him for the first 2 months perhaps.

Without Green and with hurt Orlov we go into the season with:

Carlzner
??/??
??/Hillen (who Orlov will replace at some point)

Schmidt/Strachan

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Never said it would be easy, but it's not impossible. I'm hoping they can pull a surprise addition from overseas.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

When was the last time, in the Salary cap era (or any for that matter), that a team revamped their D like that? Made 4 significant moves (ship out 1 top 4, bring in 3 others including 2 top 4)???

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Young guys stepping up worked so well last year huh? Carlzner+Orlov is young as it is. We trade Green and we get younger yet.

I'd throw Schmidt on the 3rd pair without blinking twice. Hopefully Orlov comes back strong. That leaves the 2nd pair.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

When was the last time, in the Salary cap era (or any for that matter), that a team revamped their D like that? Made 4 significant moves (ship out 1 top 4, bring in 3 others including 2 top 4)???

I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Young guys stepping up worked so well last year huh? Carlzner+Orlov is young as it is. We trade Green and we get younger yet.



I'll take this a step further....we need another 5/6 dman as well. Hillen isn't reliable and Erskine is shot. Orlov on the 3rd pair is fine but we won't have him for the first 2 months perhaps.

Without Green and with hurt Orlov we go into the season with:

Carlzner
??/??
??/Hillen (who Orlov will replace at some point)

Schmidt/Strachan

The other option is your route. Pray to Baby Jesus and watch Green walk in the offseason.

 

[BobRouse]

I'd throw Schmidt on the 3rd pair without blinking twice. Hopefully Orlov comes back strong. That leaves the 2nd pair.

Schmidt OR Orlov will be ok on the 3rd pair. Put both together and its disaster.

They are too young and inexperienced for starters.

Also we won't even have Orlov at 100% until the new year most likely (by the time he gets back up to speed after missing camp and part of the season)


You are asking an awful lot to try and fill that many holes. We will have to deplete our already thin farm system or seriously overpay for overrated UFAs

The other option is your route. Pray to Baby Jesus and watch Green walk in the offseason.

or trade him at the TDL. or watch him blossom under Trotz and return to form.

At the very least it will cover us until Orlov gets back up to speed.

If you want to tank the season fine. Trade Green and play a bunch of young guys who aren't ready.

Fact: We are thin on D. We were last year. Now we may not have Orlov for a while.

Obvious solution? Trade Green and do the "not impossible" and bring in via trade/UFA 3 NHL level Dmen from outside the org.

 

[Ajax1995]

The other option is your route. Pray to Baby Jesus and watch Green walk in the offseason.

I don't think the premise that Trotz can improve Green's play, possibly significantly, is akin to just praying but whatever...

 

[Ajax1995]

Never said it would be easy, but it's not impossible. I'm hoping they can pull a surprise addition from overseas.

But trading away Green first makes it even harder because then instead of everyone knowing you just want to add a top 4 defender now knows you absolutely need to add a top 4 blueliner now and still want to add another so the prices will go up accordingly.

About the only way I would sanction trading away Green before replacing him first is if he was dealt for another top 4 defender, maybe someone who might need a change of scenery like possibly Edler.

 

[jsykes]

jsykes

I think it boils down to this as has been mentioned:

Do you move him for a Ribeiro like return (good prospect+2nd)

Or do you keep him unless you get a Burns like return (top 6 young player+better prospect+1st) and then re-evaluate at the deadline?

I think we could EASILY get a Ribeiro like return at the deadline if not more.


Now there is word that Orlov maybe out well into November with that wrist injury which depletes our D more.

The coaches/management may not have a choice...we may HAVE to keep him regardless even if a Burns like return is presented. The Orlov situation changes everything.

I think the bottom line is what does Trotz think he can do with Green and what is his current actual value as based on what GMs are actually willing to offer.

If Trotz doesnt think Green will fit in, then it is only right to put Green on the market now while his value is highest. As it gets closer to him being a UFA, then his value drops on the trade market. If you're going to trade him and his true value is Ribeiro like return even now, then, I think, you have to take it. It may seem undervalued to us, but like anything else of value, its only worth what someone is willing to pay. And if he doesnt fit in, it doesnt make any sense keeping him only to give him away later.

But i'm not in the game so what do I know?

 

[Capitlols]

Yeah nobody has ever made changes to their game at 29. Come on man...

Sure they have, the question is can Green. I doubt it and I'm not willing to see another year with another coach to see if he can. Seriously, I have seen very little improvement in his D game over the past nine years, he makes the same mistakes routinely.

Others believe he can, more power to you.

 

[Ajax1995]

Sure they have, the question is can Green. I doubt it and I'm not willing to see another year with another coach to see if he can. Seriously, I have seen very little improvement in his D game over the past nine years, he makes the same mistakes routinely.

Others believe he can, more power to you.

Well at this point my guess is we are going to get a chance to see what Trotz can do for Green's game as given the current makeup of the blueline corps there is no way I can see them dealing him away.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

But trading away Green first makes it even harder because then instead of everyone knowing you just want to add a top 4 defender now knows you absolutely need to add a top 4 blueliner now and still want to add another so the prices will go up accordingly.

About the only way I would sanction trading away Green before replacing him first is if he was dealt for another top 4 defender, maybe someone who might need a change of scenery like possibly Edler.

I could see that happening easily.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Well at this point my guess is we are going to get a chance to see what Trotz can do for Green's game as given the current makeup of the blueline corps there is no way I can see them dealing him away.

How many coaches have tried and how many do we still need to try before accepting that 52 is what he is? Trotz is suddenly going to make him more self-aware on ice, less likely to get constantly bashed in his own end, and play some intensity filled, smart hockey? I'd love it, but it seems like a fairy tale at this stage of his career.

 

[Ajax1995]

How many coaches have tried and how many do we still need to try before accepting that 52 is what he is?

I don't exactly see Hanlon, Boudreau, Hunter, and Oates as exactly a murderers row of coaching, let alone coaching defense.

For some reason I want to see this team with a proven NHL coach at the helm. For some reason I think it might make a difference in how they play both individually and as a team.

It seemed to me that the vast majority around here wanted an experienced coach brought in, presumably because we thought he would make the team play better. Did that not apply to Green though...?

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

My biggest problem with trying to let Green figure it out under Trotz is that if he does figure it out, he'll almost certainly test the free agent market. So you either keep him and you won't want to extend him, or you keep him and won't be able to extend him.

With Carlson showing he can handle PP1 duties, move Green and get some quality with term back.

 

[Ajax1995]

So you either keep him and you won't want to extend him, or you keep him and won't be able to extend him.

Those are the only options? Keeping him, wanting to extend him, and then extending him is beyond the realm of possibilities...?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

How many coaches have tried and how many do we still need to try before accepting that 52 is what he is? Trotz is suddenly going to make him more self-aware on ice, less likely to get constantly bashed in his own end, and play some intensity filled, smart hockey? I'd love it, but it seems like a fairy tale at this stage of his career.

I don't exactly see Hanlon, Boudreau, Hunter, and Oates as exactly a murderers row of coaching, let alone coaching defense.

For some reason I want to see this team with a proven NHL coach at the helm. For some reason I think it might make a difference in how they play both individually and as a team.

It seemed to me that the vast majority around here wanted an experienced coach brought in, presumably because we thought he would make the team play better. Did that not apply to Green though...?

And Trotz's resume is that much better when it counts? Come on, you're not bringing in Larry Robinson to tutor 52, it's Trotz.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Those are the only options? Keeping him, wanting to extend him, and then extending him is beyond the realm of possibilities...?

If he regains form you want to pay $7 mil per for Green?


Unless he's willing to sign for a more reasonable # NOW, even if it's only for 2 years, giving Green a shot at one last big deal in his early 30's, I want nothing to do with extending him for an even bigger cap hit late in the year if by some miracle he suddenly starts playing great.

 

[BobRouse]

My biggest problem with trying to let Green figure it out under Trotz is that if he does figure it out, he'll almost certainly test the free agent market. So you either keep him and you won't want to extend him, or you keep him and won't be able to extend him.

With Carlson showing he can handle PP1 duties, move Green and get some quality with term back.

Wait....if he DOES figure it out then won't that mean we can get more quality back for him anyhow at the TDL? Not sure I understand this.

If he regains form you want to pay $7 mil per for Green?


Unless he's willing to sign for a more reasonable # NOW, even if it's only for 2 years, giving Green a shot at one last big deal in his early 30's, I want nothing to do with extending him for an even bigger cap hit late in the year if by some miracle he suddenly starts playing great.

If he does start playing great that's a pretty good problem to have isn't it?

He will either propel the team to make a run or we can trade him at the TDL.

Brian Campbell as a UFA brought in Steve Bernier (a 2nd year budding power forward at the time who was a 1st rounder) and a 1st

Green > Campbell especially if he plays at the top of his game.

Trading him now for "whatever" (I read that as Ribeiro like return) still doesn't make sense in that scenario